Entreq Tellus grounding,in england

[BE718]

What matters is if the car runs better, not why it does so. Many car owners wouldn't care, while car mechanics/designers would and should.

I think the analogy is wrong because in this case people are challenging that the car does not run better, and the driver is imagining it does

No-one has convinced me the car does run better.

Imagining is a very distinct possibility, however much you find it distasteful. Placebo and expectation bias is a real phenomenon. I would suggest especially after someone has spent thousands on a dodgy bit of plywood, a few bent bits of copper and some cat litter.

 

[Folsom]

BE718, thanks for the effort. I have yet to come up with good reasoning of how they work as well. Let's say it isn't in a textbook in any particularly easy to discern chapter. My first thought was antenna. But I've tried to imagine some thoughts on it acting like a drain for radiating signal, too. Really though, I'm just not sure. I do suspect it does something based on the feedback from owners; but what, and if it's remotely related to anything I think about, are a mystery still.

I wonder if any of the kind folks here would entertain us on trying some trials for how it works; or perhaps the manual mentions. Like does it matter where the box is placed? Does it matter if you connect it on the back or front of the appliance?

 

[Folsom]

No-one has convinced me the car does run better.

Imagining is a very distinct possibility, however much you find it distasteful. Placebo and expectation bias is a real phenomenon.

Precisely why I think it becomes valid if a lot of reports roll in from other owners, or Amirm has some significantly notable data. There's a lot of variables that involve going out of your way to wash the car before giving even an observational account of its performance. It could be just because Amirm has long between meals, and any levels of inflammation or nerve attenuation has further dissipated by the time he's done doing the exercise of washing his car so he perceives it all differently. That could even extend to the possibility that he's shifting and steering better, so it's not 100% in his mind.

 

[bonzo75]

No-one has convinced me the car does run better.

Imagining is a very distinct possibility, however much you find it distasteful. Placebo and expectation bias is a real phenomenon. I would suggest especially after someone has spent thousands on a dodgy bit of plywood, a few bent bits of copper and some cat litter.

Again, Placebo is a wrong analogy. Placebo in medicine happens because there is no way for me to distinguish the difference between a placebo pill and a real pill at the point of intake - I have to trust the doctor's word. They both look the same and taste the same. However, it is possible for me to distinguish differences in sound at the point of intake. A better analogy is, if the real pill was sweet, and the placebo one was savoury, then you are alleging that the Entreq guys thing sweet is savoury or vice versa, based on imagination.

Also, placebo is possible if one auditions something once or twice. Not when someone auditions it twenty times in different scenarios. I don't own Entreq, haven't demoed it at home, and have no plans to buy a grounding box in the near future because I have other expenses on hifi planned (better speakers, turntables, cartridges, etc which should keep me bankrupt for the next decade). However, I have zero reason to believe it works, because so many people can't imagine differences over 2 years, especially where some reported that with a particular setting they couldn't, and with another they could. Whether the differences are always positive, I do not know. Just like cables. Cables do sound different, whether they are worth it, and whether differences are always positive, is another discussion

 

[Purite Audio]

Ked have you heard any of these grounding boxes make a difference, has anyone ever unhooked one while you were listening, or has any form of unsighted evaluation ever taken place?
Keith.
Just to add, cables of course can sound different, if the manufacturer decides to engineer them so, if you change their electrical parameters enough or add a resistor in. large box half way along etc etc.

 

[defride]

They are all very real possibilities, and frankly far more likely than a poorly made plywood box with some bent bits of copper and kitty litter inside doing anything magically beneficial. These are not assumptions BTW.

....and yes, if these boxes are genuinely creating benefit due to improving the "grounding" of your system then yes there quite obviously is something deficient in its grounding regime.

All electronics provide perfect grounding, most even? Are you sure?

Not tried this product but know a few guys that have been very happy with not knowing what was inside while perceiving real benefits in their very decent systems. I don't doubt their listening perceptions were as real when deciding on spending their money here as deciding upon spending their money on other changes to their systems. They all had plenty of time to try and then decide to buy based on what they heard.

The product looks pretty disappointing to me given the cost but that's just my preconceived notion of value. That's a different argument to 'does it work or not?'.

 

[BE718]

All electronics provide perfect grounding, most even? Are you sure?

Not tried this product but know a few guys that have been very happy with not knowing what was inside while perceiving real benefits in their very decent systems. I don't doubt their listening perceptions were as real when deciding on spending their money here as deciding upon spending their money on other changes to their systems. They all had plenty of time to try and then decide to buy based on what they heard.

The product looks pretty disappointing to me given the cost but that's just my preconceived notion of value. That's a different argument to 'does it work or not?'.

Didnt say that did I? My other point, that was conveniently missed, was that if it is a problem in your system then use cheap cable to link the units. An expensive box with bent bits of copper and kitty litter inside is totally unnecessary and certainly less effective.

Well I suppose ignorance is bliss.

 

[BE718]

Again, Placebo is a wrong analogy. Placebo in medicine happens because there is no way for me to distinguish the difference between a placebo pill and a real pill at the point of intake - I have to trust the doctor's word. They both look the same and taste the same. However, it is possible for me to distinguish differences in sound at the point of intake. A better analogy is, if the real pill was sweet, and the placebo one was savoury, then you are alleging that the Entreq guys thing sweet is savoury or vice versa, based on imagination.

Also, placebo is possible if one auditions something once or twice. Not when someone auditions it twenty times in different scenarios. I don't own Entreq, haven't demoed it at home, and have no plans to buy a grounding box in the near future because I have other expenses on hifi planned (better speakers, turntables, cartridges, etc which should keep me bankrupt for the next decade). However, I have zero reason to believe it works, because so many people can't imagine differences over 2 years, especially where some reported that with a particular setting they couldn't, and with another they could. Whether the differences are always positive, I do not know. Just like cables. Cables do sound different, whether they are worth it, and whether differences are always positive, is another discussion

No, placebo is perfectly fine in this context. The psychological effect of perceived benefit where there is none.

 

[Rodney Gold]

I have found that if folk hear a difference , even tho it doesn't exist , they hear it all the time and its a truism for them.
you must understand that they actually DO hear a difference even if is non existent
Some folk hear a middle tone between two other tones , it doesn't exist , but 20% of the population hears it

 

[spazmatron]

Ked have you heard any of these grounding boxes make a difference, has anyone ever unhooked one while you were listening, or has any form of unsighted evaluation ever taken place?
Keith.
Just to add, cables of course can sound different, if the manufacturer decides to engineer them so, if you change their electrical parameters enough or add a resistor in. large box half way along etc etc.

Ironically Keith putting sorbathane sheets under the ground boxes seems to bring improvements

 

[beaur]

I rarely worry about the aggressiveness, what I see as an issue is what I call the "complete shutdown" when someone just dismisses a position with it won't work because.....

You also throw out the ad hominem accusation fairly liberally. This may be a distinction only a former debater can appreciate but if you look back at your accusation to me you may notice that I was attacking your argument/presentation not your person.

Technically we are fairly close I just don't practice the proactive skepticism you preach. I am willing to listen to something first. I can go through a veritable laundry list of items; Tice clock, Belt foil, quantum chips, magic pebbles etc that have been in my system on a trial basis that I just couldn't figure out how they were supposed to work and indeed they didn't. Luckily I had enough friends to keep me supplied with woo when I was interested!! After trying these I was more than happy to ask for an explanation from the designers or the users of why they worked.

Beau

The context Beaur is a technical one. This is not about measurement. My opinions are based on education and many years of practical experience in relevant technical fields. The logic that someone has to hear it to have a valid opinion regarding it is totally false.

Whilst there may have been a few sarcastic comments regarding these boxes, because let's face it people are absolutely right to be somewhat skeptical and incredulous about them, the aggression has very much come from the believers in the product with ad hominem to anyone questioning it.

 

[Argonaut]

In US culture, a peddler is a derogatory term for someone who goes door to door to sell something. I lived in UK for a while so maybe you tell me that it is not a derogatory term but something tells me it is or you would not have chosen that term to describe him. Further, the term has to have meaning in this context. It doesn't. You were just trying to put him down personally which is against our terms of service and importantly opposite of the plea you had for professionalism.


You should conduct yourself professionally so only the people who are not so fall out and get noted. And further, we are not here to discuss people, but audio.

As to listening to me or not, well, I am one of the people who has to be convinced to sanction someone which I assume is your intent with respect to Keith and this conversation. If you don't care what I think, well that goes against your objective there.

Amir, Curious that you have chosen to comment on the delivery and conduct of the messenger whilst ignoring the content of the message entirely.

As to your inferred 'seeking of your attention' with regard to sanction against Purite Audio, I made no such approach, in fact my initial post on the thread being merely one of agreement in the considered moderation of Mike, as to persistent sniping and snide comment upon what are often products competing with his own portfolio.

If we are to understand that PA has been officially advised as to his conduct in this regard, then surely you must have acquiesced as to such.

 

[Purite Audio]

Amir, Curious that you have chosen to comment on the delivery and conduct of the messenger whilst ignoring the content of the message entirely.

As to your inferred 'seeking of your attention' with regard to sanction against Purite Audio, I made no such approach, in fact my initial post on the thread being merely one of agreement in the considered moderation of Mike, as to persistent sniping comment upon what are often products competing with his own portfolio.

Just to be clear I don't sell any foo, or snake oil products, I just don't like to see folk getting ripped off.
Keith.

 

[spazmatron]

Just to be clear I don't sell any foo, or snake oil products, I just don't like to see folk getting ripped off.
Keith.

Well your no fun then

I respect your stance on this, you are practicing what you preach. Beyond reproach by my estimation.

 

[Purite Audio]

Well your no fun then

I respect your stance on this, you are practicing what you preach. Beyond reproach by my estimation.

I am the Mother Theresa of audio, of course I would make more money if I did !
Keith ( your father)

 

[spazmatron]

I am the Mother Theresa of audio, of course I would make more money if I did !
Keith ( your father)

Interesting.. I had you down as more of a Joan of Arc post anger management sessions...

 

[Purite Audio]

Interesting.. I had you down as more of a Joan of Arc post anger management sessions...

That would be my wife.
VB Keith.

 

[bonzo75]

Interesting.. I had you down as more of a Joan of Arc post anger management sessions...

Why, because he as a face that launched a thousand quantum chips?

 

[spazmatron]

Why, because he as a face that launched a thousand quantum chips?

More of the misunderstood, falsely accused and burnt at the steak by delusional natives vibe! Oh and the going into battle with no knickers on....

The future will declare Keith a audio saint...

 

[amirm]

If 75-90% of people with the same car made the same report - and I were someone with related experience but skeptical - then most certainly. It does no good to just exercise biases all day.

You could have a thousand people saying their car runs faster when they wash it. It doesn't matter. The truth in that is measuring that it did or did not. Chefs make their food plates attractive. Many people as a result think the food tastes better while we know that can't possibly be true. Our mouth has no eye. The brain does of course.

By the way, it is not a matter of being skeptical. It is a matter of analyzing what is there and realizing it doesn't do anything. I am not a fan of skeptics. I am a fan of calming looking at something, analyzing it and having that be the reference point of view as opposed to what masses may be saying.

To that end, those of you who have the unit try to imagine that it has made the sound worse. Think hard to see if the improvements you thought were there, were not. Do this as honest as you can be with yourself. Then see if the improvements are resilient.

Consider that if a simple device like this made a difference, real circuit changes in our electronics would have effects that would be so large as to make our measurements blow off the scale!

These are the types of logical analysis that you want to do rather than going by how many people thought it made a difference.