Best XLR connectors money can buy?

[Atmasphere]

-10 ft max RCA cable based on a fringe case of a super high output impedance preamp.

-All XLR cables sound the same.

-If you don't agree with the above the issue is with your components.

-A vast majority of RCA cables are coax cables.

If contradiction is present, often too is the use of logical fallacies.

The Strawman is in use in the quote above.
10 feet is always a good recommendation because you can count on it to always work. I never said it was the limit. You came at that from the other direction and completely missed the point as a result. I never said for example that a 16 foot cable wouldn't work. Heck, if you're careful you can run 30 feet of the stuff. But if you're not careful then 10 feet is a very safe rule of thumb. When you distort my arguments, at first I'm patient because I don't like pointing out to someone that they used a logical fallacy. They usually don't take that well. But just so you know, the use of a logical fallacy in an argument means its false by definition, so not a good debate tactic.
Nor did I say all XLRs sound the same. What I've said is that the balanced line system is very good at eliminating cable artifacts- that was one of the reasons it was adopted and its proven itself very good at it over the last 70 years of high fidelity recordings. If its set up properly, its easily demonstrated that most cables will sound identical (there will be some exceptions as there is a Bell curve, and of course expectation bias). But if that system is not in place you'll hear differences. This is so very easy to demo!
I know of a few RCA cables that are not coax such as the woven Kimber cable. But it is correct that the vast majority of RCA cables are coax, which is to say that there is a shield around a conductor- or perhaps two conductors, one of which will be tied to the shield at one end (this latter type of cable is really limited to high end audio use, which in the scheme of things is a tiny proportion of all RCA cables made). At any rate, after being asked a simple question, I answered it simply and correctly that the shield is responsible for the capacitance of the cable. Of course this isn't correct with something like the Kimber, but in the big wide real world, cables like that are so rare that they are so many signifcant digits past the decimal point the don't alter the accuracy of my answer.

 

[DaveC]

If contradiction is present, often too is the use of logical fallacies.

The Strawman is in use in the quote above.
10 feet is always a good recommendation because you can count on it to always work. I never said it was the limit. You came at that from the other direction and completely missed the point as a result. I never said for example that a 16 foot cable wouldn't work. Heck, if you're careful you can run 30 feet of the stuff. But if you're not careful then 10 feet is a very safe rule of thumb. When you distort my arguments, at first I'm patient because I don't like pointing out to someone that they used a logical fallacy. They usually don't take that well. But just so you know, the use of a logical fallacy in an argument means its false by definition, so not a good debate tactic.
Nor did I say all XLRs sound the same. What I've said is that the balanced line system is very good at eliminating cable artifacts- that was one of the reasons it was adopted and its proven itself very good at it over the last 70 years of high fidelity recordings. If its set up properly, its easily demonstrated that most cables will sound identical (there will be some exceptions as there is a Bell curve, and of course expectation bias). But if that system is not in place you'll hear differences. This is so very easy to demo!
I know of a few RCA cables that are not coax such as the woven Kimber cable. But it is correct that the vast majority of RCA cables are coax, which is to say that there is a shield around a conductor- or perhaps two conductors, one of which will be tied to the shield at one end (this latter type of cable is really limited to high end audio use, which in the scheme of things is a tiny proportion of all RCA cables made). At any rate, after being asked a simple question, I answered it simply and correctly that the shield is responsible for the capacitance of the cable. Of course this isn't correct with something like the Kimber, but in the big wide real world, cables like that are so rare that they are so many signifcant digits past the decimal point the don't alter the accuracy of my answer.

No strawman, sorry. No logical fallacy either, if anything basing your 10 ft recs on a fringe-case DIY-type preamp is ridiculous and disingenuous.

You are also VERY wrong about most RCA cables being coax, it's so obvious you have no clue about modern cable design, and you don't even use RCA cables. How could you possible know? I OTOH, have been sending people cables to demo for over 10 years and know A LOT about the subject.

It's really too bad you give folks so much misinformation. I hate these kinds of exchanges, dealing with totally unreasonable people using fringe cases with poor understanding of audio engineering is not a good time. On one hand you have the objective fact deniers like the "Natural Sound" folks, and on the other the ASR types like Amir and yourself. As is the case in most things, the extremes are generally biased and misguided. I just feel bad for the folks who fall for it on either side, but right now, I'm done. You've wasted enough of my time.

Why you even post in a thread like this is a mystery. You're just the same as cable deniers entering a thread about the best cables and telling everyone they all sound the same. It's pathetic.

 

[Atmasphere]

No strawman, sorry. No logical fallacy either, if anything basing your 10 ft recs on a fringe-case DIY-type preamp is ridiculous and disingenuous.

[/QUOTE]
This is what is known as 'denial'. The statement above is also a Strawman; I never based my 10 foot recommendation on a DIY preamp nor did I claim such. A strawman is when you knock down a statement or argument similar to one I made but not identical. For the counter-argument to be real and not false, it has to address the original argument exactly.

You are also VERY wrong about most RCA cables being coax, it's so obvious you have no clue about modern cable design, and you don't even use RCA cables. How could you possible know? I OTOH, have been sending people cables to demo for over 10 years and know A LOT about the subject.

[/QUOTE]
Just because you've been sending cables out a long time isn't a proof. Your reliance on this kind of argument is a 'sunk cost' fallacy (IOW because you've been doing it for so long it must be right). Of course the reason I know about RCA cables is we use them all the time.

It's really too bad you give folks so much misinformation. I hate these kinds of exchanges, dealing with totally unreasonable people using fringe cases with poor understanding of audio engineering is not a good time. On one hand you have the objective fact deniers like the "Natural Sound" folks, and on the other the ASR types like Amir and yourself. As is the case in most things, the extremes are generally biased and misguided. I just feel bad for the folks who fall for it on either side, but right now, I'm done. You've wasted enough of my time.

[/QUOTE]
You said that before and yet here we are... Conflating me with Amirm is a logical fallacy also (hasty generalization). You apparently don't know anything about me. I rely heavily on measurements but I also rely heavily on how things sound; I like to see how the measurements confirm what we like and don't like about what we hear. 'ASR guys' as best I can make out, do not see the subjective experience as having any validity.

Why you even post in a thread like this is a mystery. You're just the same as cable deniers entering a thread about the best cables and telling everyone they all sound the same. It's pathetic.

Actually I enjoy my work and my interactions on the internet are an extension of that. No mystery. In this case I'm mostly responding to correct persistant misinformation. For example: if I'm 'just the same as' a 'cable denier' why do I point out that cables can sound different??

 

[DaveC]

Personal commentary deleted - Please commet on the topic of the thread and not about a member of this forum.

But keep digging!

 

[Solypsa]

This has been interesting up to a point, yet language continues to remain obtuse.

*If* there are a preamp and amp fully conforming to AES48...will wire and/or connector become a major element in resulting SQ in the resulting sound? It is subjective at this point, yet people may take their sides. Is there a test??

 

[MarcelNL]

with AES48 behind a paywall (got curious since I doubt these standards can alleviate the need for better wire and insulators etc) I bet there are more amps NOT conforming than conforming...

 

[Atmasphere]

This has been interesting up to a point, yet language continues to remain obtuse.

*If* there are a preamp and amp fully conforming to AES48...will wire and/or connector become a major element in resulting SQ in the resulting sound? It is subjective at this point, yet people may take their sides. Is there a test??

Its easy to test if you allow for longer distances- for example 100 feet. Also easy to demonstrate the vastly improved resistance to noise sources outside the cable, like an AC magnetic field. For things like tonality and sound stage, you'd probably have to resort to measuring the effect on the system rather than trying to measure the cable itself.

One way of looking at this is high fidelity recordings made since the 1950s. When Mercury recorded the Minneapolis Symphony in Northrup Auditorium, they used their recording truck which had tape machines permanently mounted within. This meant they had to run the microphone signal about 200 feet. Back then, cables were considerably more crude than those of today, yet those recordings sound just fine- and the better you make your system, the better they sound. This is true across all the labels of merit at the time; RCA, Decca, EMI and so on.

Its worth reiterating that all studio balanced gear is capable of driving fairly low impedances. That low impedance helps swamp noise that might be impinged on the cable as well as capacitive issues (and since cables have a dielectric like any capacitor does, this is important). It also helps reduce any artifact that might arise at mechanical connections.

 

[DaveC]

Personal commentary deleted - Please commet on the topic of the thread and not about a member of this forum.

Really? This guy keeps twisting my words and meanings to try to say they are all strawmen and logical fallacies, all the while basing his "recommendations" on component and cable design that has nothing to do with high end audio, and you delete my comment?

I have every right to point out the intellectual dishonesty being shown in his comments, it has EVERYTHING to do with the "discussion", which is being carried on in bad faith. This "debate" is all about promoting one point of view by using unfair criticisms of single ended audio components and cables by someone with a vested interested in selling balanced audio gear. And it is being done by promising to make cable differences irrelevant, which is a powerful marketing ploy also used by the "Natural Sound" folks. Unfortunately, in both cases it's just wishful thinking or an outright lie.

I think most can see the bad faith arguments being made here. 10 ft RCA cable "rule of thumb" based on a unrealistic output impedances being just the start...

 

[DaveC]

Back then, cables were considerably more crude than those of today, yet those recordings sound just fine- and the better you make your system, the better they sound.

What are you talking about? This is just more total BS and fabrication. Please tell exactly how cables used to be so crude? The shielded twisted pair was THE standard for balanced audio since it came to be. Vintage Western Electric cables and wire are still considered by many to be SUPERIOR to today's commodity level cables, people still pay top dollar for Vintage WE wire. Just like vintage vacuum tubes, the wire and cable made decades ago is just as good or even better than a lot of modern wire and cable.

 

[Atmasphere]

Really? This guy keeps twisting my words and meanings to try to say they are all strawmen and logical fallacies, all the while basing his "recommendations" on component and cable design that has nothing to do with high end audio, and you delete my comment?

On this forum, as with many forum websites, the standard of behavior is to attack the post, not the poster. You agreed to this rule when joining the forum.

I have not twisted any words. A long time ago I used to use logical fallacies without being aware I was doing so. Learning about them has helped my work online quite a lot. Here is a helpful link about how logical fallacies work:
https://www.mindtools.com/afwgbcu/logical-fallacies

What are you talking about? This is just more total BS and fabrication. Please tell exactly how cables used to be so crude?

Typical balanced cables from the late 1950s often used tin plated multistranded wire with PVC or even rubber insulation, often with a bit of twine to strengthen the cable if someone tripped over it. This wasn't always the case; my Neumann microphone cables use copper in a PVC jscket with a double Reussen shield. Modern cables, like Mogami, tend to use OFC copper with polyethylene. Despite the obvious improvement in materials and construction (and the fact that Mogami wire is often rebranded for the high end cable market), if a proper balanced line system is used to compare the two cables as I've described, the difference between them is very subtle. But drive them balanced without the standard and the differences are stark, almost as if something is wrong with the system when using the older cable.

Over the last 45 years we've done many cable comparisons. We found out decades ago that how the cable is driven has an enormous effect on the end result.

 

[DaveC]

I have not twisted any words. A long time ago I used to use logical fallacies without being aware I was doing so. Learning about them has helped my work online quite a lot. Here is a helpful link about how logical fallacies work:
https://www.mindtools.com/afwgbcu/logical-fallacies

Yes, you have and I am 100% aware of debate rules and logical fallacies. I think you're the one that needs to review your own material. Your continuous attacks on me for logical fallacies is it's self a fallacy because you purposefully misinterpret what I write and twist my words to make it seem that way. That's actually pretty horrible, but par for the course these days. It's really pedantic and condescending, trying to make yourself look like the smart guy at the expense of others is never a good look.

--

Funny how some of the most popular wire these days is in fact tin plated multistranded wire. Everything you said has no bearing on cable quality and design. I reiterate that vintage cable and wire is often excellent.

And of course impedance matching matters, not arguing that point, it makes a difference no matter what cable is used.


And again, you come into a thread titled "Best XLR connectors money can buy?" telling people they make no difference. It's exactly like a cable denier entering a cable thread and telling everyone they are all idiots. I think that's against the rules here too, but here we are with some guy with no clue telling everyone it makes no difference.

 

[Atmasphere]

Yes, you have and I am 100% aware of debate rules and logical fallacies. I think you're the one that needs to review your own material. Your continuous attacks on me for logical fallacies is it's self a fallacy because you purposefully misinterpret what I write and twist my words to make it seem that way. That's actually pretty horrible, but par for the course these days. It's really pedantic and condescending, trying to make yourself look like the smart guy at the expense of others is never a good look.

--

Funny how some of the most popular wire these days is in fact tin plated multistranded wire. Everything you said has no bearing on cable quality and design. I reiterate that vintage cable and wire is often excellent.

And of course impedance matching matters, not arguing that point, it makes a difference no matter what cable is used.


And again, you come into a thread titled "Best XLR connectors money can buy?" telling people they make no difference. It's exactly like a cable denier entering a cable thread and telling everyone they are all idiots. I think that's against the rules here too, but here we are with some guy with no clue telling everyone it makes no difference.

Here is an example of a strawman: I didn't say that vintage wire was not excellent. In fact I made no value judgement at all other than saying that the construction was a bit more crude since it used older materials. I did not attach a value to 'crude' but in your text above you very clearly made it look as if I did (re.: your comment about tin-plated multistranded wire, which seems to suggest I said something bad about it- if you think I did, please say where). I used one of those cables I described in my own system for about 25 years until its shear age and the insulation crumbling forced me to replace it.

When you knock down an argument I didn't make, that is the definition of a strawman, and it renders your post false by definition- didn't you look at the link I provided??

 

[DaveC]

Here is an example of a strawman: I didn't say that vintage wire was not excellent. In fact I made no value judgement at all other than saying that the construction was a bit more crude since it used older materials. I did not attach a value to 'crude' but in your text above you very clearly made it look as if I did (re.: your comment about tin-plated multistranded wire, which seems to suggest I said something bad about it- if you think I did, please say where). I used one of those cables I described in my own system for about 25 years until its shear age and the insulation crumbling forced me to replace it.

When you knock down an argument I didn't make, that is the definition of a strawman, and it renders your post false by definition- didn't you look at the link I provided??

A clear example of your twisting your own wording and intent to make it seem like a flawed argument, but that's just your own intellectual dishonesty, which you've shown off in spades in this thread.

You need to review your own link. I know this stuff backwards and forwards since high school, where I was taught to debate and I was excellent at it. You however, would be a massive failure due to your moving goalposts and interpreting wording out of context to try to make an invalid point.

 

[DMSB]

Interesting observation. It is often noted that silver tarnish is still close to as conductive as clean silver and not much of a detriment. Always good to hear an experience based observation tho...

My audio Precision has silver plated XLRs on it and I need to clean the contacts about once a month or it significantly affects my measurements (causes measurement failures). If I'm being lazy I can just exercise the connectors a few times and it usually fixes the problem. I also have some custom built measurement equipment that I put Gold Plated XLRs on and that never requires cleaning or "exercise", because of that gold plating is my preference for XLRs that are not mated and unmated on a regular basis. One thing I am always annoyed with though is mixing of silver contacts with gold, that always throws off my measurements considerably so I have to make custom cables for my audio precision with gold contacts on one end for the equipment under test and silver contacts on the other for the Audio Precision, very annoying.

 

[DaveC]

My audio Precision has silver plated XLRs on it and I need to clean the contacts about once a month or it significantly affects my measurements (causes measurement failures). If I'm being lazy I can just exercise the connectors a few times and it usually fixes the problem. I also have some custom built measurement equipment that I put Gold Plated XLRs on and that never requires cleaning or "exercise", because of that gold plating is my preference for XLRs that are not mated and unmated on a regular basis. One thing I am always annoyed with though is mixing of silver contacts with gold, that always throws off my measurements considerably so I have to make custom cables for my audio precision with gold contacts on one end for the equipment under test and silver contacts on the other for the Audio Precision, very annoying.

Silver plating can vary a lot! Some of it doesn't corrode, for example Xhadow plugs and sometimes the plating on mil-spec silver plated copper/teflon. OTOH, sometimes mil spec wire does corrode but it always takes much longer than pure silver. I suspect that the plating isn't pure, otoh it's possible the plating process results in a burnished finish that makes it harder for oxygen and sulfites to react with the silver.

100% agree on the downside of mixing platings, it's very obvious for AC power applications. In fact rhodium gets it's rep mostly from mixing rhodium and gold plating. I've had customers get rid of "the sound of rhodium" by replacing a gold plated receptacle with rhodium to match the AC plug. In signal and speaker cable the results of mixing plating aren't as bad but still not ideal. IMO, the best plating is rhodium because it's clearer sounding than gold and much harder, so more durable. Gold plating can really smooth out fine detail. I also think rhodium only works properly when plated over pure copper, brass parts with rhodium plating has some issues such as grain and a more forward midrange. I think gold tends to smooth out those issues to some degree, while rhodium does not. Platinum works well too, but the WBT platinum plated silver tends to pick up dirt a lot more than rhodium and can be difficult to remove if not frequently cleaned. Dirty WBT contacts have been an issue for a few of my customers.

On the topic of this thread, the new Furutech NCF XLR plugs are really excellent. Rhodium plated pure copper, hollow pins with damping in the pin, set-screw terminations, a cf/stainless body that damps vibration and NCF material that lowers noise. I haven't found a better engineered XLR plug.

Tarnish on silver is actually mostly from sulfites and not oxygen, and it's not nearly as conductive as silver and doesn't sound great either. IMO, it's important to mitigate any sort of corrosion. I'm not sure how the thought that corrosion on silver doesn't matter and that silver oxide is just as conductive, it's one of those myths that gets passed around the internet and repeated every time the subject comes up.

 

[DMSB]

My vote for the XLRs with the best performance goes to modern Neutrik Gold plated connectors like NC3FXX-B. They have a unique spiral multi-finger female contact design that is super reliable and stable electrically even with repeated cable manipulation and the gold plating ensures the contacts stay stable over time without having to be cleaned or "exercised". I have not seen a better female contact design from any other XLR manufacturer at any price. I have not found them to change more than a few miliohm over years of staying mated. The Neutrik male pins are also very well polished with reliably attached gold of sufficient thickness that does not thin quickly with repeated connector mating. Rougher male pins on other XLRs tend to wear out the gold prematurely if you mate them often, like in my production test systems.

 

[DaveC]

My vote for the XLRs with the best performance goes to modern Neutrik Gold plated connectors like NC3FXX-B. They have a unique spiral multi-finger female contact design that is super reliable and stable electrically even with repeated cable manipulation and the gold plating ensures the contacts stay stable over time without having to be cleaned or "exercised". I have not seen a better female contact design from any other XLR manufacturer at any price. I have not found them to change more than a few miliohm over years of staying mated. The Neutrik male pins are also very well polished with reliably attached gold of sufficient thickness that does not thin quickly with repeated connector mating. Rougher male pins on other XLRs tend to wear out the gold prematurely if you mate them often, like in my production test systems.

They are my 2nd choice behind the Furutech NCF, and cost almost nothing. A new line of more affordable cables I have on the way use Neutrik XLRs.

I think the Furutech plugs are great but they are very expensive.

Gold wearing out is an issue for some, rhodium probably gives an order of magnitude more connect cycles. Furutech is also nice because the plating is mirror smooth, they have great plating quality.

 

[flowcharts]

For those who've tried, how do ETI Kryo & Brio fall into the mix? I have a set of Kryo that I like better than Neutrik silver/gold, and a bit better than AECO. Haven't had a chance to compare them to the likes of Furutech's top offerings, Xhadow, Bocchino, etc

 

[Argonaut]

There is ‘Best’ Physical connection and there is ‘Best’ sonic performance , let us not conflate the two , altho the former often contributes to the latter.

 

[Atmasphere]

A clear example of your twisting your own wording and intent to make it seem like a flawed argument, but that's just your own intellectual dishonesty, which you've shown off in spades in this thread.

You need to review your own link. I know this stuff backwards and forwards since high school, where I was taught to debate and I was excellent at it. You however, would be a massive failure due to your moving goalposts and interpreting wording out of context to try to make an invalid point.

I've simply relied on fact. Its pretty obvious that the statements in the above post are false.