Back to the Future- the death of the gearhead!

[PeterA]

I am talking about the rooms at Transparent and at Karens home.
They are identical

Thanks Elliot. As I have heard that room with what Transparent had set up as their reference system at the time a year ago, it gives me some perspective on your comment about that sound being one of the four best you have ever heard. Perhaps Karen's system was different when you heard it.

 

[Elliot G.]

I think he means the speakers are not toed in towards the listener-they are facing straight ahead. It also doesn't sound like he would agree with your statement about speakers "don't have to be large," but then I guess we would have to define what "large" means. It sure sounds like no stand mount speakers need apply.

Well too me they have to be full range. I am not saying you cant get terrific sound from smaller speakers but I am saying to get the full monty without compromise and be able to play all types of music ( which I like) I want a full range speaker.
There are obviously compromises that we all have to make based on what we can use for a room and of course what we can afford.
I have had really exceptional results from a variety of speakers however for me at this time of my life I want it all even if I cant afford it. I have Howie!!!! thankfully

 

[Elliot G.]

Perhaps the listening area is the entire rear wall and not a centered listening seat, so the speakers fire straight ahead. The baffle must be parallel to the rear wall and 90 degrees to the side walls, assuming a rectangular room. But he wrote 90 degrees to rear wall.

I took "strait towards the listening area" to mean toe in to the listening seat which would make the baffle at some angle to the rear wall, close to 45 degrees if setting up in a triangle.

Peter,
the Nolas should fire straight ahead no toe in, no angles period I cant draw on here but _________________________________________ rear wall


--- ---- speakers
hope that display of my artist talent helps LOL this is of course with no scale

 

[Elliot G.]

Im not sure what gear you have but the Magico Mini's are really good speakers and they can sound really good. I am not putting this type of gear down its just not what I want.
I am used to full range speakers without compromise.
I have had speakers with limits Magnepans, Quads, Acoustats, Dahlquists, Stax, Vandersteens and I prefer the Infinity Beta's, The IRS, Genesis 2's , Nola baby Grands , focal grand Utopia EM's and Nola Concert Grand's
These are some of the ones I have owned and or played with a lot.

 

[PeterA]

Im not sure what gear you have but the Magico Mini's are really good speakers and they can sound really good. I am not putting this type of gear down its just not what I want. I am used to full range speakers without compromise. I have had speakers with limits....

Thank you Elliot. The Minis are very good, and you can just look at my signature for the rest of my gear, but this is not about my system. All speakers have limits and compromises, IMO, even excellent full range models. Otherwise, the good manufacturers would not keep finding ways to improve their statement/flagship products.

I was just confused by your set up technique. I think what you call the rear wall, I call the front wall. That is the wall behind the speakers, the one that the listener faces. The baffle and rear of the speaker are parallel to the front wall. It's clear now.

 

[Elliot G.]

Thank you Elliot. The Minis are very good, and you can just look at my signature for the rest of my gear, but this is not about my system. All speakers have limits and compromises, IMO, even excellent full range models. Otherwise, the good manufacturers would not keep finding ways to improve their statement/flagship products.

I was just confused by your set up technique. I think what you call the rear wall, I call the front wall. That is the wall behind the speakers, the one that the listener faces. The baffle and rear of the speaker are parallel to the front wall. It's clear now.

sorry for the confusion I mean the wall behind the speakers .
Of course they all do and I am not saying big is better since many are aweful.
I had a lot of experience with the Focal Grand Utopia Em for example and wehn I first heard them in France I was very unimpressed. I asked to go back to the listening room a second time and they allowed me to reset the system up and then I decided to buy a pair.
When I got my pair it took around 4-5 months before I thought they sounded good and a few more weeks before I found the combination fo gear to make them sing.
I have heard them at shows and they sound BLAH. I am mentioning this since they are far from my favorite but i believe with something good if you take the time you can get a good result.
My preference is not box speakers i prefer line source and open baffle type speakers

 

[KeithR]

They love the chase, the gear, the change but dont really understand music.

So Priaptor your Nola Concert Grands , REF-10, REF 75 with KT 150 tubes, MSB Diamond and your server , cables power etc are done right and I for one want to congratulate your accomplishment because I know what it took to get there.
Bravo Howie you deserve it.
Enjoy

I sure hope a pair of $200k speakers gets you off the merry-go-round. I mean, there are only so many $500k speakers out for you to try next.

 

[Elliot G.]

Thanks Elliot. As I have heard that room with what Transparent had set up as their reference system at the time a year ago, it gives me some perspective on your comment about that sound being one of the four best you have ever heard. Perhaps Karen's system was different when you heard it.

I dont know what you heard but I spent a week up in Maine last year and I heard the system at the factory and the system at Karen's home.
The system at the house was really special and I got to hear some amazing recordings.
The system at the office we used for a lot of comaprisons and really didnt do much "listening"
The rooms are identical and I think for the most part the gear they used at both places was the same.
ARC REF ANN, LAMM amps not sure which ones, thier cables and I think dCS stacks. The master tapes were only at the house.
I posted about that experience before and I really enjoyed what I heard and did not know that the Wilson's could do what I heard there.
That type of speaker was never my personal preference although Wilson,Magico, Focal etc make really great gear.
I have always leaned toward the Infinity, Genesis, Scaena, Nolas
Hope that clears up where it s coming from.

 

[RogerD]

All this takes experience and time. It helps greatly if you have been doing this a while. I have found that the 2 most important things are the speakers and noiseless power. You need dedicated lines, but you don't need to spend a fortune. Tube or SS will work but I prefer tube,but I use SS amps,go figure. The speakers are key they need to be coherent and the time domain perfect. If they don't throw I a good solid image and chiseled phantom center,you have some work to do. I have 22 drivers firing at me,so it can be done. The end result should be that the speakers on the vast majority of recordings totally disappear. The image or soundtage should be sharp and well defined taking on the impression that the music is coming out of thin air. The highs should dance in front of you above your head. The singer should have a feeling of great presence almost like a aura and the gestalt of the whole system should be able to reproduce the venue ie a outdoor concert,carnegie hall,or Rudy van Gelders studio,all should have great dimensionality. In one word you are transported to the venue. A cathedral organ sounds like what it is only on a smaller scale,but then you can always crank it up. YMMV

 

[Al M.]

I read HP's review of the Nola Concert Grand, and one thing caught my attention in particular. It is the apparent ability of the speakers to sound small with small forces. If true, this is crucial. I can live with an orchestra that is portrayed smaller in size, but I have a huge perceptual problem with over-sized pianos, solo violins, solo voices or guitars. This is where most large speakers let you down, as also HP points out, and thus I'd rather err on the smaller size. But if the Nola Concert Grand can do it right, while also portraying orchestras really large, this is a game changer in reproduction.

 

[Priaptor]

I read HP's review of the Nola Concert Grand, and one thing caught my attention in particular. It is the apparent ability of the speakers to sound small with small forces. If true, this is crucial. I can live with an orchestra that is portrayed smaller in size, but I have a huge perceptual problem with over-sized pianos, solo violins, solo voices or guitars. This is where most large speakers let you down, as also HP points out, and thus I'd rather err on the smaller size. But if the Nola Concert Grand can do it right, while also portraying orchestras really large, this is a game changer in reproduction.

Al

You hit the nail on the head. Believe it or not my speaker if choice had always been monitors. I love them and was VERY hesitant to move to full range speakers. You are exactly right and HP was exactly right in describing this speakers. These may be the best "full range" monitors you can find.

These speakers are incredibly intimate and provide those spatial cues on the music and instruments you describe often only achieved with monitors.

 

[RogerD]

I read HP's review of the Nola Concert Grand, and one thing caught my attention in particular. It is the apparent ability of the speakers to sound small with small forces. If true, this is crucial. I can live with an orchestra that is portrayed smaller in size, but I have a huge perceptual problem with over-sized pianos, solo violins, solo voices or guitars. This is where most large speakers let you down, as also HP points out, and thus I'd rather err on the smaller size. But if the Nola Concert Grand can do it right, while also portraying orchestras really large, this is a game changer in reproduction.

I have mixed feelings on this because the way the recording is mic'd has a effect on the size of the instrument portrayed. Let's just say the great systems reproduce what is on the "tape" so to speak. Also truly great systems are intimate always,doesn't matter if it's a orchestra,Navy glee club,great organ,or Karen Carpenter. The intimacy is in fact is what blows your mind.the emotion and reponse just flows forth. Charisma in a system especially a large system,no wonder this hobby has so much devotion.

 

[MylesBAstor]

I have mixed feelings on this because the way the recording is mic'd has a effect on the size of the instrument portrayed. Let's just say the great systems reproduce what is on the "tape" so to speak. Also truly great systems are intimate always,doesn't matter if it's a orchestra,Navy glee club,great organ,or Karen Carpenter. The intimacy is in fact is what blows your mind.the emotion and reponse just flows forth. Charisma in a system especially a large system,no wonder this hobby has so much devotion.

I don't know about the "intimacy" factor. A string quartet should be intimate, not an orchestra. No one sits mid-hall and back for a string quartet; you will get a slightly more distant perspective for an orchestra.

And it depends on the miking. Mercury classical are more upfront than an RCA. Then you have Decca and EMI. Intimate maybe with later recordings that are multi-miked.

 

[Al M.]

Al

You hit the nail on the head. Believe it or not my speaker if choice had always been monitors. I love them and was VERY hesitant to move to full range speakers. You are exactly right and HP was exactly right in describing this speakers. These may be the best "full range" monitors you can find.

These speakers are incredibly intimate and provide those spatial cues on the music and instruments you describe often only achieved with monitors.

This sounds like a dream speaker then! What I also like is the high sensitivity; I always have problems with 'speakers that don't want to be moved', like someone once expressed it -- you can actually hear that. High sensitivity speakers are mostly more responsive towards accurately portraying micro-dynamics, an aspect of sound reproduction that for me is an absolute must. Your tube amps should be an ideal partner for that too. I hope your system excels in that like mine does.

 

[Al M.]

I have mixed feelings on this because the way the recording is mic'd has a effect on the size of the instrument portrayed.

Yes, you're right. Some recordings just aren't properly monitored for size portrayal, but the average large speaker tends to make that problem even worse.

 

[RogerD]

I don't know about the "intimacy" factor. A string quartet should be intimate, not an orchestra. No one sits mid-hall and back for a string quartet; you will get a slightly more distant perspective for an orchestra.

And it depends on the miking. Mercury classical are more upfront than an RCA. Then you have Decca and EMI. Intimate maybe with later recordings that are multi-miked.

Myles....I'm talking about the intimacy of live performances,there is a energy,and I think a system can convey that.

 

[Elliot G.]

Myles....I'm talking about the intimacy of live performances,there is a energy,and I think a system can convey that.

this speaker and his system do this in spades. I am very much a believer that to get it right a system must be able to do low level dynamics for to me this is what truly conveys the soul of music and makes it sound real.
Very few systems can do both micro and macro dynamics. Those that can have special characteristics. I personally want it all!
Having said that there are different presentations made by different types of speakers and at that point we all must choose what we seek and enjoy the most.
Simple example is the Nola Concert Grand and say the Wilson XLF. Very different in how they work and how they present the sound. Both can be special now you have to choose which you prefer.
This is always the debate on all levels not just at the extreme high end.
Howie and I both listen to a ton of live stuff to me that is what I love.
Try Martin Sexton "live wide open" great stuff in there

 

[MylesBAstor]

Very few systems can do both micro and macro dynamics. Those that can have special characteristics. I personally want it all!

+1

And a few other things come to mind too.

 

[Al M.]

am very much a believer that to get it right a system must be able to do low level dynamics for to me this is what truly conveys the soul of music and makes it sound real.
Very few systems can do both micro and macro dynamics. Those that can have special characteristics.

Indeed.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Yes, you're right. Some recordings just aren't properly monitored for size portrayal, but the average large speaker tends to make that problem even worse.

i'll take the 'worse' if that is what the recording is telling me.

I prefer a speaker system and room integration which displays the greatest differences in presentation between different recordings. if the speaker keeps things 'right sized' it is holding back what is possible. depth, width, height, all around, and in terms of bloom and energy. and I've heard systems where the amplification or even the preamp or sources held back the degree of bloom and space.....or simply added a sameness to the presentation. maybe a sexy sameness, but a sameness none-the-less.

some systems 'inflate' things and focus gets lost; this is as bad as being too confined.

sure; I like an instrument or voice to be real sized, but I'm more interested in letting every recording breathe. both in space and energy. if the recording was mixed to be intimate, then it should be that way.

if a system/speaker has any sort of sameness (either large or small, short or tall, deep or shallow), then something is missing in the final picture.

in my system some recordings simply 'explode' the apparent visual space to something much more......wonderful! that was my overall system development goal from the very beginning.