Back to the Future- the death of the gearhead!

[Elliot G.]

I first want to congratulate my friend on what he has accomplished, a system that produces sound that one wants to sit in front and not get up, not go to the bathroom, not stop for dinner and worthy of falling asleep in the chair rather than shut it off. I think that during my many years involved with audio both in the Industry and as a hobbyist I have only had the pleasure to listen to a handful of truly amazing systems. I think this is sad by the way since I have heard thousands. I have heard many good ones by the way but there is a very large difference between the the good and the great. in my over 40 years I have only heard two systems, just two in consumers homes that I can say were special. I believe that many fall in love with the gear and a handful of "audiophile recordings" and think this is the holy grail. They love the chase, the gear, the change but dont really understand music. I think in some regards we all have fallen into the trap. The expectation that the next piece, the next change is the "silver bullet" that piece that will bring me nirvana. I believe that to many get lost in this chase, a chase that is like searching for mysteries without any clues. I have always felt that the set up and the room are the more important skill to master. I almost always feel when I hear something that it is not set up right, the speakers are not quite coupled in the room. I think that most audiophiles pull the trigger to change without ever getting it right first. My friend Priaptor finally got it. It did not happen over night. He has made the chase ( not alone ). He has put his money where is insanity is ( LOL). This time however he has put in his own effort and time to make the subtle changes and to meet the challenges of his space to get it right. I mean very right. We have worked together for a very long time. I have tried my best to advise and help him but always told him he needs to learn and to experiment to truly learn. No dealer, no friend can spend the time in his room that it takes to get it right, to learn the space conclusively to make the little moves to find the magic. This friends you must do alone, me in my house you in yours. In all the years I have done this virtually no one is willing to pay someone to sit and listen in their room for days and weeks to get it dialed in. This is what it takes!!! Harry Pearson did, Transparent Karen Sumner and staff did, a old friend in Montreal did and a few others I know.
The audiophiles expectation that a show system or that in a showroom set up in a few hours will produce the true color of a system is not realistic and in fact just plain wrong. It takes much more time that that. Ask anyone that has dome a show and it is usually the last day the system sounds best, a little more experience makes it better but its not enough to make it perfect and perfect is what we seek. I know that perfect is not possible but perfect in my room is, or yours, it takes more effort than money but sadly it takes a lot of that as well these days.
So Priaptor your Nola Concert Grands , REF-10, REF 75 with KT 150 tubes, MSB Diamond and your server , cables power etc are done right and I for one want to congratulate your accomplishment because I know what it took to get there.
Bravo Howie you deserve it.
Enjoy

 

[JackD201]

Way to go Howie!

 

[Priaptor]

Thanks.

I it is a stunning system and one as Elliot says where you just want to LISTEN.

I consider myself fortunate to have this and have no desire to chase the new great DAC, speaker, etc as I have learned my lesson in the last 30 years what and how to make great sound.

When you just want to listen that is when you know you are THERE!

I did make a few tweaks since the last time Elliot heard the system including KT150s, KAIA LPS for my server and Stillpoint apertures as well as an Odin PC supplying my REF75 but the essence of the system has stayed the same.

I agree with Elliot that too many are looking for new and better before maximizing what they have. I have also learned from past experience that wanting better can be your biggest enemy.

 

[Elliot G.]

Thanks.

I it is a stunning system and one as Elliot says where you just want to LISTEN.

I consider myself fortunate to have this and have no desire to chase the new great DAC, speaker, etc as I have learned my lesson in the last 30 years what and how to make great sound.

When you just want to listen that is when you know you are THERE!

I did make a few tweaks since the last time Elliot heard the system including KT150s, KAIA LPS for my server and Stillpoint apertures as well as an Odin PC supplying my REF75 but the essence of the system has stayed the same.

I agree with Elliot that too many are looking for new and better before maximizing what they have. I have also learned from past experience that wanting better can be your biggest enemy.

The Industry fails miserably in its ability to show the public what it really can do. I used to have this discussion with a famous old reviewer and to be honest it wasn't his "job" .
We make all this great stuff and yet there are no permanent great places for people to experience it. I think that maybe even if we had to pay for the experience that it would show the searchers what is possible and maybe how to find the path to get there.
One mans opinion.

 

[JackD201]

You know, my partners and I discussed this about 5 years ago. In the end the decision was to place the reference proof of concept precisely in a permanent location. It made no economic sense to do so in a commercial location given how small our market is so my home became it. The advantages of a constant, known and controlled environment cannot be stressed enough. It definitely does take a long time to figure out what's causing the kinks and then figure out the ways to address them appropriately given the great number of variables. It is a constant learning experience and for me, that is something I find highly enjoyable. It's a 3D puzzle made up of sound waves where you need both logic and feel. I like best how Dr. Richard Heyser put it.

“Perhaps more than any other discipline, audio engineering involves not only purely objective characterization but also subjective interpretations. It is the listening experience, that personal and most private sensation, which is the intended result of our labors in audio engineering. No technical measurement, however glorified with mathematics, can escape that fact.”

 

[Al M.]

Congratulations, Howie!

I consider myself fortunate to have this and have no desire to chase the new great DAC, speaker, etc as I have learned my lesson in the last 30 years what and how to make great sound. ...I agree with Elliot that too many are looking for new and better before maximizing what they have.

Indeed. I have had my amp/speaker combo (see signature) for almost 24 years now (well, the sub is only 14 years old). It was magic from the beginning, and I never seriously wanted to change it. I have had them modified and got new external power supplies for the amps (what an enormous difference in resolution, see review linked in my signature).

Other than that, I went through serious front end changes, room treatment (perhaps my single most important upgrade), power conditioning, and cable changes (but my audio cables are already 20 years old, too). The amp/speaker combo stayed the same, yet tremendously grew in resolution with the remainder of the system.

Future upgrades are planned in power conditioning (Shunyata Triton/Typhon), purchase of serious racks for vibration control (HRS), and the Berkeley Alpha Reference DAC (the last of these items to be implemented).

Through all these upgrades, no change in the amp/speaker combo is planned. Yet with that single constant through the upgrades, I still expect another enormous growth in resolution and naturalness of presentation. In a few years the speakers will go through another round of re-foaming.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

I agree with the OP. I do think however that the industry at large is not ready or even conclusive to this approach. High End Audio has been into a "newer= better" cycle for many years now. Most companies are into this. The newer , the better improved v.1 similar to the software cycle and most audiophiles or so it seems to me have bought into this. So every other year there are a new amp, preamp or cable which is to a fault always 'betta' than the precedent ware. There remains a few companies that do not buy much into this,keeping the same design for years, even decades, from the top of my head I can cite three or four: Boulder, Burmester, dar Tzeel, FM Acoustics, There could be others not that many though.

 

[Priaptor]

Hi

I agree with the OP. I do think however that the industry at large is not ready or even conclusive to this approach. High End Audio has been into a "newer= better" cycle for many years now. Most companies are into this. The newer , the better improved v.1 similar to the software cycle and most audiophiles or so it seems to me have bought into this. So every other year there are a new amp, preamp or cable which is to a fault always 'betta' than the precedent ware. There remains a few companies that do not buy much into this,keeping the same design for years, even decades, from the top of my head I can cite three or four: Boulder, Burmester, dar Tzeel, FM Acoustics, There could be others not that many though.

I agree. If the consumer wasn't there to support it they wouldn't be doing it. The one caveat I will make is that the manufacturers biggest group of buyers are probably the dealers, other manufacturers and "reviewers" which in many cases covers their overhead. If the manufacturer went totally at risk they wouldn't be so apt to make these never ending changes.

However, the main point Elliot is making is that it is so nice to have a system where you just care about the music rather than "worrying" about "can this make this one audiophile track sound better". As I said on another thread, I don't like getting into this is better than that arguments to justify or rationalize my purchases as to each his own. However, I do enjoy sharing experiences of those who have similar equipment and small tweaks I have discovered.

 

[caesar]

Priaptor, Congrats!

 

[caesar]

.... as a hobbyist I have only had the pleasure to listen to a handful of truly amazing systems. I think this is sad by the way since I have heard thousands. I have heard many good ones by the way but there is a very large difference between the the good and the great. in my over 40 years I have only heard two systems, just two in consumers homes that I can say were special...

Elliot, what is your definition of merely "good" vs. truly great?

 

[caesar]

... I have always felt that the set up and the room are the more important skill to master. I almost always feel when I hear something that it is not set up right, the speakers are not quite coupled in the room...

Elliot,

This seems almost mystical. Can you please share your deep experiences on how you and your friends go about this?

 

[Elliot G.]

Elliot,

This seems almost mystical. Can you please share your deep experiences on how you and your friends go about this?

I guess in some ways it seems that way .
I have been very fortunate to have had the opportunity to work with some of the best gear and the men who designed it over my career. I had a good mentor for a while in HP and I have always been curious as to why my stuff never sounded like the 100's of concerts I went to see.
I asked a lot of questions, I read a lot of books and articles and to be honest I got stoned a lot and tried to make my stuff sound more like the real thing.
That said it is tedious and slow work and after you do it over and over you learn what to expect and how to react to it.
I will try to explain what I mean by this.
Example:
If you were to take your own system and listen to say 6 preamps one after another for a few days you should learn what is the sound of a preamp. What exactly a preamp does and of course how those 6 pieces differ.
So my major goal and what I find to be the most important factor in getting a system to sound GREAT is positioning of the speaker in the room you are using.
Different types of speakers will like to be in different locations. Dynamic box speakers set up differently than electrostatics, Magneplanars, dipoles, Nolas etc.
I have played with and own all types and my preferences are things that aren't boxes. I am not saying that Wilson's, or Focals, or Magicos cant sound great I am saying what I like.
I loved my Maggies, I loved my Infinities, My Acoustats, My Quads, Stax's, Dahlquist ( a little different) and I adore the Nola's of today.
In the case at hand my firend has a pair of Concert Grands. These are large open baffle design speakers. They like to be away from corners and walls. They get set up strait towards the listing area and at a 90 degree angle to rear wall, no tilt in either direction.
These are in my opinion the easiest to set up since you only have to play with the distance from the back wall. The width is really easy to get right.
So how do I do this?
This speaker is a little more difficult than his smaller speakers because they are freeking heavy!!!
So part of the set up involves knowing Howie's space. We have had three pair of similar speakers in the room over the last few years and so we had a pretty good idea where to start with the distance from the rear wall. Over the course of a few months ( i only get there once a month or so because of our different work schedules and its house so
we listen to music, we have similar tastes and like much of the same music and we are always turning each other on to new stufff we find.
We both like live music.
We like acoustic guitars
We like vocals
We like percussion and of course many of the same artists and we like some Classical etc.
We listen to some new stuff and some standards we have learned to use as reference when adjusting.
In my mind I am listening to how the bass couples in the room and when you move the speakers away from the rear wall you will find that it will come up off the floor and at a certain point(distance from rear wall) it will rise up and focus and have the same quality of resolution as the rest of the music, and it should!!!! When you go live bass has it and in most home audio system it is dissimilar and therefore colors and distracts.
The speakers should then disappear in the room. I repeat if they dont disappear they aren't set up right !!!! Or get some other speaker!!!!
The system should then get fine tuned, space between the speakers has something to do with the listening position but I try to get them as far apart as I can without breaking the image.
When this is right it is MYSTICAL! It create the illusion the Keith Jarrett is playing the Koln concert in that room, that Dyan Kai is sitting in front of us singing Looking for a home, that we ar epart of the crowd at Cat Stevens or Bruce.
When we put on Mozarts requiem or Resphigi's or Beethoven the hall is there and we are transported like a time machine
Mystical yes impossible no
I hope that helps and if you need more just ask
E

 

[RogerD]

The speakers should then disappear in the room. I repeat if they dont disappear they aren't set up right !!!! Or get some other speaker!!!!
The system should then get fine tuned, space between the speakers has something to do with the listening position but I try to get them as far apart as I can without breaking the image.
When this is right it is MYSTICAL! It create the illusion the Keith Jarrett is playing the Koln concert in that room, that Dyan Kai is sitting in front of us singing Looking for a home, that we ar epart of the crowd at Cat Stevens or Bruce.
When we put on Mozarts requiem or Resphigi's or Beethoven the hall is there and we are transported like a time machine
Mystical yes impossible no
I hope that helps and if you need more just ask
E

Amen!

 

[Al M.]

The speakers should then disappear in the room. I repeat if they dont disappear they aren't set up right !!!! Or get some other speaker!!!!

When this is right it is MYSTICAL! It create the illusion the Keith Jarrett is playing the Koln concert in that room, that Dyan Kai is sitting in front of us singing Looking for a home, that we ar epart of the crowd at Cat Stevens or Bruce.
When we put on Mozarts requiem or Resphigi's or Beethoven the hall is there and we are transported like a time machine
Mystical yes impossible no
I hope that helps and if you need more just ask
E[

That is one reason why I like my minimonitors. In an acoustically well treated room like mine it is hard not to have them disappear, no special tweaking required. They are very close to the walls; in my 13 feet wide room their outer edges are 11 feet apart, with perfect imaging across the entire width and depth of the soundstage including center.

In my mind I am listening to how the bass couples in the room and when you move the speakers away from the rear wall you will find that it will come up off the floor and at a certain point(distance from rear wall) it will rise up and focus and have the same quality of resolution as the rest of the music, and it should!!!! When you go live bass has it and in most home audio system it is dissimilar and therefore colors and distracts.

The transition between my speakers and the subwoofer is seamless. An advantage is that all the deeper bass is taken over by the sub (the main speakers are linear only down to about 50-60 Hz) so that there is much more freedom in moving the main speakers without having to worry about the bass character being altered. A friend of mine who plays jazz comments every time he visits how convincing the upright bass sounds.

Since the main speakers are both rigidly built and small, there is no wooden and bloated box coloration whatsoever while the lower mids are gutsy and powerful (test for example: lower register of piano on a rich sounding recording). I just can't stand box coloration. No wonder that your preferences are things that aren't boxes.

I have no doubt you can achieve incredible results with well set-up large speakers, but it's just so much harder to get it right.

 

[Elliot G.]

That is one reason why I like my minimonitors. In an acoustically well treated room like mine it is hard not to have them disappear, no special tweaking required. They are very close to the walls; in my 13 feet wide room their outer edges are 11 feet apart, with perfect imaging across the entire width and depth of the soundstage including center.



The transition between my speakers and the subwoofer is seamless. An advantage is that all the deeper bass is taken over by the sub (the main speakers are linear only down to about 50-60 Hz) so that there is much more freedom in moving the main speakers without having to worry about the bass character being altered. A friend of mine who plays jazz comments every time he visits how convincing the upright bass sounds.

Since the main speakers are both rigidly built and small, there is no wooden and bloated box coloration whatsoever while the lower mids are gutsy and powerful (test for example: lower register of piano on a rich sounding recording). I just can't stand box coloration. No wonder that your preferences are things that aren't boxes.

I have no doubt you can achieve incredible results with well set-up large speakers, but it's just so much harder to get it right.

Of course it is Sir but that is where the difference is. The idea is to make something magical this is the basis of what I said the difference between something good and something truly great.
I am sorry but mini monitors and subs are not what I was talking about when I said something great.
I understand the space and financial considerations but alas the results are something that are not really in the same league.
I mean no disrespect to anyone but .....

 

[Elliot G.]

Elliot, what is your definition of merely "good" vs. truly great?

go to any show or most showrooms you will hear good and maybe really good.
Great is not really available in the vast majority of those circumstances.
HP reference
Karen Sumner 's room in Maine
Priaptor in So Fl
just to name a few

 

[Al M.]

Of course it is Sir but that is where the difference is. The idea is to make something magical this is the basis of what I said the difference between something good and something truly great.
I am sorry but mini monitors and subs are not what I was talking about when I said something great.
I understand the space and financial considerations but alas the results are something that are not really in the same league.
I mean no disrespect to anyone but .....

That is rich. You think you can judge my sound if you haven't even heard it. I am not sure if you have the faintest idea of what a well set-up high-quality mini monitor/sub combo can do, how well it can portray a hall, and if it can be magical. And yes, I've heard big systems in large rooms. Some have greatly impressed and convinced me in some aspects (large image, for one), none entirely. I am sure your system will be special; I don't assume otherwise since I haven't heard it.

 

[RogerD]

Great sound to me is when the reproduction mimics the recording event and by mimic I mean in presence,gestalt,and venue,sounds pretty simple,but hard to achieve. As always the sum of the parts is greater than the pieces.

 

[rbbert]

I do envy and appreciate what Priaptor has managed to accomplish. OTOH, his equipment is both new and expensive, so I'm not sure how this debunks "newer = better" or "more expensive = better". FWIW, his system components are among the handful I might choose (quite possibly the exact ones) at his system price point; just think how much more challenging it would be to assemble and setup a truly "great" system at a much lower, but still high. price point e.g. $100k?

 

[mep]

I do envy and appreciate what Priaptor has managed to accomplish. OTOH, his equipment is both new and expensive, so I'm not sure how this debunks "newer = better" or "more expensive = better". FWIW, his system components are among the handful I might choose (quite possibly the exact ones) at his system price point; just think how much more challenging it would be to assemble and setup a truly "great" system at a much lower, but still high. price point e.g. $100k?

Why should it be any harder to buy $100k of gear and set it up for great sound?