Back to the Future- the death of the gearhead!

[JackD201]

The key word in everything Elliot wrote is "Distracts". Take away the distractions

 

[rbbert]

Why should it be any harder to buy $100k of gear and set it up for great sound?

I'm not sure, but I don't think any of Elliot's "great" systems fall under that price point. And don't forget the room; my guess would be that to do that really well will cost as well (Jack? Amir? Steve?)

 

[Priaptor]

I do envy and appreciate what Priaptor has managed to accomplish. OTOH, his equipment is both new and expensive, so I'm not sure how this debunks "newer = better" or "more expensive = better". FWIW, his system components are among the handful I might choose (quite possibly the exact ones) at his system price point; just think how much more challenging it would be to assemble and setup a truly "great" system at a much lower, but still high. price point e.g. $100k?

RB

I understand your point and am not looking at my system from either a new or expensive makes a better system in of itself.

I was once in the trade, have owned many systems in the past and had built a dedicated room in my last home. In fact in my last home I achieved an excellent sound with WATT/PUPPY/WHOW Spectral gear and ruined it all when I went for newer more expensive X1s and Mark Levinson.

The room I now have was in some way serendipitous as I never thought it would be a great sound room but great is what it turned out to be. I have played with the system and have been working with components I currently have for the last year. With the exception of changing out my REF250s for the "cheaper" REF75 most of my components are the same and the Concert Grands are almost a year old.

I had the system sounding excellent. The last time Elliot heard it was several months ago before I made my last tweaks. I replaced my REF75 PC with an Odin direct to the wall, changed my USB card to a JCAT USB card, moved around some traps, experimented with Stillpoints Apertures and bought 4 of them and experimented until I found the right placement, changed out my power supply for my server with a Kaia LPS and lastly replaced the KT120s with the KT150s.

When I was done with the tweaking and moving the speakers I knew I was hearing something special. I never like to compare to others and to each his own but in my life I have never heard what I am currently hearing. Looking at my room (other than my equipment) you would not see a "customized" sound room with panels, etc.

My system is better described by the music it is capable of producing than the equipment it is made of.

 

[Elliot G.]

That is rich. You think you can judge my sound if you haven't even heard it. I am not sure if you have the faintest idea of what a well set-up high-quality mini monitor/sub combo can do, how well it can portray a hall, and if it can be magical. And yes, I've heard big systems in large rooms. Some have greatly impressed and convinced me in some aspects (large image, for one), none entirely. I am sure your system will be special; I don't assume otherwise since I haven't heard it.

First I am so sorry that the thread became all about you and YOUR system ad that I offended your sensibilities. I know for many it is impossible to believe that their system isn't the BEST the world has to offer.
I have spent over 40 years in this industry and have heard thousands of systems. The systems I am talking about are NOT mine. I did not say that YOUR system is lousy or bad or anything like that. I did say that with my experience and you can check that out if you like that little speakers with or without sub woofers can not do what large state of the art speaker systems can do. FACT sorry I wont argue that point because it is a fact.
I am also not saying that all big speakers are the answer.
My point was that there are many good or very good products there are very few GREAT,
If you are happy with what you have then enjoy it.
I have no interest getting into a pissing contest with you I dont know you and I know nothing about you. It was however fine for you to denigrate me!
I have heard many mini sub systems and have heard all the good mini speakers. Magico, Focal, Rogers, Sonus etc etc.
Sorry Sir they dont cut it for me. They are not bad or anything like that they just aren't what I am talking about and in fact these products are not even the best these companies make for themselves.
I did forget however that you and you overwhelming skill have taken apples and oranges and put them together like no one ever in the history of audio. That you have done the impossible and that you have done what the best speaker designers in the world cant.
So congrats!

 

[Al M.]

First I am so sorry that the thread became all about you and YOUR system ad that I offended your sensibilities. I know for many it is impossible to believe that their system isn't the BEST the world has to offer.

Since when did the thread become all about me and my system?

Howie and you made some observations and I answered them from my perspective. If you don't want a conversation, but instead make it all about breathless admiration of one particular kind of system, then perhaps you should not start a thread, especially when you make assertions that clearly invite a response.

Where did I claim that my system is the best the world has to offer? I didn't.

I did hear big systems in large rooms and, depending on the recording, they were better than mine in at least one respect, portrayal of scale (on some recordings it was better, even dramatically so, on some worse). On the other hand all of them had, from my personal perspective, one or another fatal flaw that I could not live with. Yet I am sure there will be some systems that have it all, and perhaps the one featured on top of this thread is one of them, but they will be rare as you concede yourself.

My point was that there are many good or very good products there are very few GREAT,

What constitutes 'great' of course is in the eye of the beholder. If it weren't we'd all have the same kind of tastes and, where money is not an issue, the same kinds of systems.

If you are happy with what you have then enjoy it.

I am happy, and thanks. I am also genuinely happy that Howie and you are delighted with his.

I did forget however that you and you overwhelming skill have taken apples and oranges and put them together like no one ever in the history of audio. That you have done the impossible and that you have done what the best speaker designers in the world cant.
So congrats!

Now who is exaggerating here and who is denigrating whom? Perhaps you should lower your tone a bit.

 

[Priaptor]

Just to clarify a few things. I didn't start this thread. I added to it on the heels of Elliot being blown away by what he "heard". As I have stated, he hasn't heard the system in months, he wanted to hear it and I offered to play it for him, under the condition we "listen" not do the audiophile thing that is so prevalent of comparing Patricia Barbara, Krall or some other audiophile cut. We just listened to all kinds of music, ranging from huge symphonic presentations to the solo guitarist. We listened for hours. We didn't talk equipment. In fact we didn't talk. Elliot's post was spontaneous, he and I have no dog in this race.

However, I do respect his opinion as the guy has been in the business since the 70s, has worked and/or owned some of the most respected dealers selling the most respected brands and has had a hand in setting up 1000s of systems. Additionally he has had the good fortune of learning from some of the best such as from HP during his prime as well as some other pioneers in the industry from some of the brands that most audiophiles covet. Unfortunately the NET has turned most into professionals regardless of true experience.

He was stating his opinion about my system using his vast database of previous encounters to judge what he heard. This is not a threatening issue and if he didn't like what he heard in my house (and there were times in the past he did criticize) I would have listened and evaluated.

Unless I am missing the point his observations are not a dis on others, just a personal observation.

 

[Al M.]

Just to clarify a few things. I didn't start this thread. I added to it on the heels of Elliot being blown away by what he "heard". As I have stated, he hasn't heard the system in months, he wanted to hear it and I offered to play it for him, under the condition we "listen" not do the audiophile thing that is so prevalent of comparing Patricia Barbara, Krall or some other audiophile cut. We just listened to all kinds of music, ranging from huge symphonic presentations to the solo guitarist. We listened for hours. We didn't talk equipment. In fact we didn't talk. Elliot's post was spontaneous, he and I have no dog in this race.

However, I do respect his opinion as the guy has been in the business since the 70s, has worked and/or owned some of the most respected dealers selling the most respected brands and has had a hand in setting up 1000s of systems. Additionally he has had the good fortune of learning from some of the best such as from HP during his prime as well as some other pioneers in the industry from some of the brands that most audiophiles covet. Unfortunately the NET has turned most into professionals regardless of true experience.

He was stating his opinion about my system using his vast database of previous encounters to judge what he heard. This is not a threatening issue and if he didn't like what he heard in my house (and there were times in the past he did criticize) I would have listened and evaluated.

Unless I am missing the point his observations are not a dis on others, just a personal observation.

None of what you say here is in any way controversial. I didn't know the extent of Elliot's credentials, however, otherwise I would not have made one of my remarks the way I did in response to a provocative one of his.

Again, congratulations on your system!

 

[Elliot G.]

FYI I was never trying to put anyone down. I do find it very tiresome that people who have NEVER had a real audio experience and trust me you would know if you did, want to compare what it is not comparable.
The only thing I care about is the music and the systems ability to reproduce it.
One doesn't have to spend over 100k to get there however today the prices of product are certainly up there. A properly set up system has a lot of requirements and the gear is a big part but it is only the parts to build with.
The set up and the room are extremely important. One does not have to build and treat a room to have a place that works. It is important to note that some speakers require much more care in a room than others. It is also important to take the room into account when buying gear if you have certain limitations.
When it is all done with extreme care and some talent it can become a "time machine". It will be the vehicle that takes the listener into the music and it will produce the suspension of disbelief that you are in fact listening to some recording.

There are as I said good very good and then there are a very few great magical ones.
You wont hear them at shows, probably not at a dealers and so most never get the chance to hear one.
Sadly.
I have found that very few people will pay for the expertise of someone to advise and set up the system and show them how to get the most out of the gear. Audiophiles all seem to want to be expert whether they have learned how to or not.
One mans opinion
let the bashing begin

 

[mep]

Elliot-What kind of chance do I have to get what you call a "real audio experience" with my ARC REF 5SE, REF 75, and Nola KOs (when the KOs ever arrive)?

 

[rbbert]

Elliot-What kind of chance do I have to get what you call a "real audio experience" with my ARC REF 5SE, REF 75, and Nola KOs (when the KOs ever arrive)?

Depends on your setup? (just making an educated guess)

 

[MRJAZZ]

"I had the system sounding excellent. The last time Elliot heard it was several months ago before I made my last tweaks. I replaced my REF75 PC with an Odin direct to the wall, changed my USB card to a JCAT USB card, moved around some traps, experimented with Stillpoints Apertures and bought 4 of them and experimented until I found the right placement, changed out my power supply for my server with a Kaia LPS and lastly replaced the KT120s with the KT150s."

I am new to computer audio playback. I am evaluating several different avenues at the moment, and one of them is a MAC MINI. Can the USB sound card in the MAC MINI be replaced (or some how by passed )by the JCAT USB card you mentioned above ? If so where can I get this card, and would I have to take it to an APPLE store for a tech to do the replacement?

 

[mep]

Depends on your setup? (just making an educated guess)

I'm just curious as to how worthy my gear is in the eyes of someone with the experience that Elliot has.

 

[PeterA]

I have found that very few people will pay for the expertise of someone to advise and set up the system and show them how to get the most out of the gear. Audiophiles all seem to want to be expert whether they have learned how to or not.

I guess I and the many clients of Jim Smith's, as well as of other set up guys like him, are the "very few". Jim does what Elliot describes, and his results are astonishing. I fully agree that the room and how the speakers play in the room is the critical aspect of getting great sound. Speakers don't have to be large, in my experience.

I have heard the main room up at Transparent Audio. I wonder if it sounds similar to Karen's room.

 

[PeterA]

In the case at hand my firend has a pair of Concert Grands. These are large open baffle design speakers. They like to be away from corners and walls. They get set up strait towards the listing area and at a 90 degree angle to rear wall, no tilt in either direction.
These are in my opinion the easiest to set up since you only have to play with the distance from the back wall. The width is really easy to get right.
So how do I do this?

Elliot, do you really mean 90 degrees and the "rear" wall? I'm confused by this description of your set up technique.

Are you advocating a rectangular arrangement or something? Or do you mean an equilateral triangle with the listener or something else?

 

[mep]

Elliot, do you really mean 90 degrees and the "rear" wall? I'm confused by this description of your set up technique.

Are you advocating a rectangular arrangement or something? Or do you mean an equilateral triangle with the listener or something else?

I think he means the speakers are not toed in towards the listener-they are facing straight ahead. It also doesn't sound like he would agree with your statement about speakers "don't have to be large," but then I guess we would have to define what "large" means. It sure sounds like no stand mount speakers need apply.

 

[Priaptor]

"I had the system sounding excellent. The last time Elliot heard it was several months ago before I made my last tweaks. I replaced my REF75 PC with an Odin direct to the wall, changed my USB card to a JCAT USB card, moved around some traps, experimented with Stillpoints Apertures and bought 4 of them and experimented until I found the right placement, changed out my power supply for my server with a Kaia LPS and lastly replaced the KT120s with the KT150s."

I am new to computer audio playback. I am evaluating several different avenues at the moment, and one of them is a MAC MINI. Can the USB sound card in the MAC MINI be replaced (or some how by passed )by the JCAT USB card you mentioned above ? If so where can I get this card, and would I have to take it to an APPLE store for a tech to do the replacement?

The JCAT card cannot be used with an Apple mini. I personally am not a fan of Apple in the computer audio arena. I still have my mini to try the updated players when they are released and like my PC server better.

The card can be purchased from JPLAY's website and if you want a prebuilt PC server for relatively low $ I would recommend Andrew at Little Green Computers.

 

[PeterA]

I think he means the speakers are not toed in towards the listener-they are facing straight ahead. It also doesn't sound like he would agree with your statement about speakers "don't have to be large," but then I guess we would have to define what "large" means. It sure sounds like no stand mount speakers need apply.

Perhaps the listening area is the entire rear wall and not a centered listening seat, so the speakers fire straight ahead. The baffle must be parallel to the rear wall and 90 degrees to the side walls, assuming a rectangular room. But he wrote 90 degrees to rear wall.

I took "strait towards the listening area" to mean toe in to the listening seat which would make the baffle at some angle to the rear wall, close to 45 degrees if setting up in a triangle.

 

[Elliot G.]

Elliot-What kind of chance do I have to get what you call a "real audio experience" with my ARC REF 5SE, REF 75, and Nola KOs (when the KOs ever arrive)?

I cant tell you when they will arrive LOL but I think that you can get something really special when they do if you take the time to get them right!

 

[Elliot G.]

I guess I and the many clients of Jim Smith's, as well as of other set up guys like him, are the "very few". Jim does what Elliot describes, and his results are astonishing. I fully agree that the room and how the speakers play in the room is the critical aspect of getting great sound. Speakers don't have to be large, in my experience.

I have heard the main room up at Transparent Audio. I wonder if it sounds similar to Karen's room.

I am talking about the rooms at Transparent and at Karens home.
They are identical

 

[Elliot G.]

Elliot, do you really mean 90 degrees and the "rear" wall? I'm confused by this description of your set up technique.

Are you advocating a rectangular arrangement or something? Or do you mean an equilateral triangle with the listener or something else?

the back of the Nolas should be square or parallel to the rear wall. The distance apart is something that needs to be played with based on the listening position and how far away you are going to sit.
Its not that hard but can be a pain if the speakers are like Howie's which are really hard to move and you need so kind of rig and some helpers.
I had and so did he Baby Grands and I could do them with another person without much trouble . The concert grands are above my body capabilities ....too old and no matter how much i work out I still cant