Audio Research Ref-10 Preamp

[Elliot G.]

A reviewer using the product is not marketing. In fact HP had NO ARC products for probably at least 5 years. The few he recently had a comment on were loaned to him by a friend/manufacturer which was not ARC. They do have a good dealer network, which I am one off and have been for over 35 years.Let's stick to the facts guys. Now you know!

 

[dafos]

Actually the only gear JV used prior to the thick headed guy finally listening to me was the Ref phono 2se and 610s as the latter were the only tube amps capable of driving his then beloved Q5s. He FINALLY heard Ref 5SE and 250s and fell in love but he and Harley were very late to that game

As to HP the Ref 75 was loaned him by the amazing speaker developer you mention as was I believe the CD8 now an end of the line product. His main reference are Mac MC2301s

Incidentally now that you mention Carl and Nola I would like to add a comment. For a second system I was bit by the Magico bug, bought Q1s with a Constellation Centaur and all the recommended MIT cables. When my little experiment was over, from my perch while I liked the Q1s they were no contest to my Nolas. Not even in the same league. Now Magico is a company that knows how to market. I had both in my listening room unlike others who make subjective comparisons without either a/bi-ing, ever really listening (other than to JV) or having both in their listening room and on all counts no comparison. Nola hardly anyone knows Magico everyone knows and it is a good speaker at best but their marketing is amazing. I will save my Wilson comments for another day. I will leave it with I have owned Avalon, Wilson's, Magicos as well as Nola. The middle two sold more on marketing than the other two the last particularly with ARC gear few can match BUT his marketing sucks.

Priaptor, which NOLA speakers do you own that you compared to the Q1?

 

[Priaptor]

Priaptor, which NOLA speakers do you own that you compared to the Q1?

Baby Grands Series II

However I also had the Micros.

 

[Elliot G.]

Priaptor, which NOLA speakers do you own that you compared to the Q1?

I have listened with Priaptor numerous times and I second his findings. In fact the sound that is now coming from his system rivals the best I have ever heard anywhere.
I feel it is unfortunate that HP did not get the opportunity to listen to the whole ARC line but I am also very aware of the Industry and reviewer politics. The review process has become very flawed and if you don't understand the situation out there you should before using and quoting the players that exist.
The endless search for the "new thing" and the uneven playing field does not server the general public very well.
FOLLOW THE MONEY.....its not all for love

 

[caesar]

Actually the only gear JV used prior to the thick headed guy finally listening to me was the Ref phono 2se and 610s as the latter were the only tube amps capable of driving his then beloved Q5s. He FINALLY heard Ref 5SE and 250s and fell in love but he and Harley were very late to that game

As to HP the Ref 75 was loaned him by the amazing speaker developer you mention as was I believe the CD8 now an end of the line product. His main reference are Mac MC2301s

Incidentally now that you mention Carl and Nola I would like to add a comment. For a second system I was bit by the Magico bug, bought Q1s with a Constellation Centaur and all the recommended MIT cables. When my little experiment was over, from my perch while I liked the Q1s they were no contest to my Nolas. Not even in the same league. Now Magico is a company that knows how to market. I had both in my listening room unlike others who make subjective comparisons without either a/bi-ing, ever really listening (other than to JV) or having both in their listening room and on all counts no comparison. Nola hardly anyone knows Magico everyone knows and it is a good speaker at best but their marketing is amazing. I will save my Wilson comments for another day. I will leave it with I have owned Avalon, Wilson's, Magicos as well as Nola. The middle two sold more on marketing than the other two the last particularly with ARC gear few can match BUT his marketing sucks.

Very interesting! I had no idea you influenced Valin. Valin has cultivated an image of a lifelong ARC fan. Or so it seems, from his writings such as William Zane Johnson's Obituary or the fact that he always recommends ARC over the superb CJ stuff.

But coming back to Magico marketing, what makes you think it is great? I really don't see anything revolutionary. Wolf has done a great job schmoozing the press. At first it was Valin, then the Soundstage guys, then he tried to get Fremer and failed to get a total rave, and now he seems to be working with Jeff Tonepub. But Valin's Magico derangement seems to have now subsided, and Valin has dumped Magico. But here comes Harley, looking like a complete buffoon, with a incredulous claim, "the best product in 23 years"... How pathetic is that? And how dumb is that? Doesn't he care about his reputation one bit? All one has to do is look on Audiogon and find 3 pairs!!! of Q7's for sale. If there were 3 Wilson Alexandria XLFs for sale only a year after their release, people would be saying that Wilson has lost it and would be writing the company's obituary.


Like I said above, Wolf does deserve credit for getting his speaker in constant limelight by the reviewers, which brings the speaker to readers' constant attention. But Wolf hasn't really done any creative marketing. His ads are very weak! "Magico - Deeper Understanding". Well, once you get that deeper understanding of your music collection, while failing to get that emotional lock, you sell the speaker...

Marketing wise, how about a truly simple, unexpected catch line? How about a cool physical design that moves you emotionally and increases pride of ownership like a Vivid,an Estelon or the latest YG? How about getting a credible personality, outside our little circle of audiophiles to help expand the market? How about a user group? How about a store within a store concept at dealers, hotels, luxury establishments, or at other retailers, where a speaker can be shown in the best conditions possible? ... No innovative marketing, just schmoozing...

 

[Priaptor]

Hey I don't disagree with you.

What Alon has done is what "is" marketing in high end audio these days.

The Harley claims are in fact hysterical so soon on the heals of JV dumping Magico and picking up Raidho one has to scratch their head not to recognize the lateral handoff.

These sites are filled with testaments from end users quoting the reviewers of the equipment they purchase (for validation of their purchases) so it has to be pretty good marketing in what marketing in the high end has become, no??

 

[microstrip]

Baby Grands Series II (...)

Priaptor,
Can I ask you what is your system, including sources and cables? It would help understanding your comments.

 

[Priaptor]

Priaptor,
Can I ask you what is your system, including sources and cables? It would help understanding your comments.

Sure.

Just curious what about my comments needs understanding?

My Magico Q1s, REF 10 with a Constellaion Centaur Stereo amp, both a Meitner EMMDAC2x and an MSB Diamond DAC with MIT Matrix HD 50 IC, MIT Matrix HD 90 series 1 speaker cables.

The Nola Baby Grands, REF 10 with both EMMDAC2x and MSB Diamond driving ARC REF250s with the very inexpensive but absolutely fabulous best I ever heard cables made by MG Audiodesigns.

Incidentally I tried both set of cables on each system and each amp on each system in every combination.

The Constellation was better on the Q1s while the Ref 250s ok but not fabulous on the Q1s. Just opposite of what I found with the Nolas. Also the MIT stuff was bland on the Nolas and great on the Magicos.

This was one comparison that was not a close call when the best if both systems were compared in the same listening environment.

 

[caesar]

Hey I don't disagree with you.

What Alon has done is what "is" marketing in high end audio these days.

The Harley claims are in fact hysterical so soon on the heals of JV dumping Magico and picking up Raidho one has to scratch their head not to recognize the lateral handoff.

These sites are filled with testaments from end users quoting the reviewers of the equipment they purchase (for validation of their purchases) so it has to be pretty good marketing in what marketing in the high end has become, no??

I agree. Both Harley and Wolf are blinded by their own arrogance, thinking the rest of us are just too dumb to see what's going on. It reminds me of that old Mac Davis song - It's Hard to be Humble. Lyrics go something like this: "Oh Lord it's hard to be humble //when you're perfect in every way./ I can't wait to look in the mirror/ cause I get better looking each day./To know me is to love me /I must be a hell of a man."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvdOPUj98Aw

This stuff manifests manifests in Harley's writing - authority attitude, no comparisons, etc. And where would Wolf be if it weren't for Valin relentlessly promoting him? Makes one wonder if these guys would snap out of their power bubble if they were take a look on Audiogon see the reality: 3 virtually new Q7's for sale.

 

[caesar]

Sure.

Just curious what about my comments needs understanding?

My Magico Q1s, REF 10 with a Constellaion Centaur Stereo amp, both a Meitner EMMDAC2x and an MSB Diamond DAC with MIT Matrix HD 50 IC, MIT Matrix HD 90 series 1 speaker cables.

The Nola Baby Grands, REF 10 with both EMMDAC2x and MSB Diamond driving ARC REF250s with the very inexpensive but absolutely fabulous best I ever heard cables made by MG Audiodesigns.

Incidentally I tried both set of cables on each system and each amp on each system in every combination.

The Constellation was better on the Q1s while the Ref 250s ok but not fabulous on the Q1s. Just opposite of what I found with the Nolas. Also the MIT stuff was bland on the Nolas and great on the Magicos.

This was one comparison that was not a close call when the best if both systems were compared in the same listening environment.

Wow! Nice!!! So would you ever consider running the Nola's with any SS? And what are your thoughts on EMM vs. MSB?

 

[Priaptor]

Wow! Nice!!! So would you ever consider running the Nola's with any SS? And what are your thoughts on EMM vs. MSB?

My EMM is currently up for sale. I was told not to listen to the Diamond and made a huge mistake and didn't heed the advice. It is a real game changer. Truly spectacular

I am always open to considering SS on the Nolas but am still waiting for the right one. The Centaur was excellent just not as good on the Nolas and the Ref250s just weren't great on the Q1s

 

[Bill Hart]

In reading reviews, I'm always more interested in process than conclusions since so much (aside from any obvious bias on the part of the reviewer) is system dependent. I also start with the assumption that a reviewer is operating in good faith, but perhaps that's naive. I don't think I ever purchased any serious component based on a review, although reviews (as well as user comments on web sites) will often lead me to try something in my system. My biggest issue with HP (and I both respect and admire him for what he has done, having read him from the very beginning) is that even when he was at the top of his game, and The Absolute Sound was thriving (as much as it could be, back in the day), he always wrote these tentative, preliminary reviews, with promises of follow-up, in-depth reviews that never seemed to happen. C'est la vie.
I bought my first piece of ARC gear in the early 70's and it was demonstrably more musical than anything at the time (particularly the preamp, by comparison to everything else I heard then in comparison). I owned ARC stuff of different eras for decades. I never gave any attention to the paid advertising. As a contrarian, the slicker the ad, the more put off I tend to be about the product. Marketing these days takes many forms. To me, the best form of marketing is getting the product into qualified buyer's rooms for home trial. But, the gear has to live up to its promise.

 

[caesar]

In reading reviews, I'm always more interested in process than conclusions since so much (aside from any obvious bias on the part of the reviewer) is system dependent. I also start with the assumption that a reviewer is operating in good faith, but perhaps that's naive. I don't think I ever purchased any serious component based on a review, although reviews (as well as user comments on web sites) will often lead me to try something in my system. My biggest issue with HP (and I both respect and admire him for what he has done, having read him from the very beginning) is that even when he was at the top of his game, and The Absolute Sound was thriving (as much as it could be, back in the day), he always wrote these tentative, preliminary reviews, with promises of follow-up, in-depth reviews that never seemed to happen. C'est la vie.
I bought my first piece of ARC gear in the early 70's and it was demonstrably more musical than anything at the time (particularly the preamp, by comparison to everything else I heard then in comparison). I owned ARC stuff of different eras for decades. I never gave any attention to the paid advertising. As a contrarian, the slicker the ad, the more put off I tend to be about the product. Marketing these days takes many forms. To me, the best form of marketing is getting the product into qualified buyer's rooms for home trial. But, the gear has to live up to its promise.

I agree. I read reviews for entertainment and bits of information. Also, it is silly to trust a single expert, in any walk of life. Many people don't realize the fact that experts are frequently wrong because they are way overconfident of their skills and abilities. To get the best results, it's best to collect as many expert opinions as possible and then "average all of the opinions" to cancel out the errors. It's kind of like not putting any faith in a single political poll as the "truth" but instead going to a site like realclearpolitics.com and looking at the averages of all of the polls to get a better sense of reality.

In our hobby, the most successful brands like Magico, ARC, and Wilson have been wise enough to spread their products across many reviewers in many publications. That's why they are considered great marketers. But as you say, there is nothing like listening to the gear in your own system. Yet this is easier said than done with heavy and expensive products. And that's why there are 3 Q7's up for sale on Audiogon.

 

[MylesBAstor]

I agree. I read reviews for entertainment and bits of information. Also, it is silly to trust a single expert, in any walk of life. Many people don't realize the fact that experts are frequently wrong because they are way overconfident of their skills and abilities. To get the best results, it's best to collect as many expert opinions as possible and then "average all of the opinions" to cancel out the errors. It's kind of like not putting any faith in a single political poll as the "truth" but instead going to a site like realclearpolitics.com and looking at the averages of all of the polls to get a better sense of reality.

In our hobby, the most successful brands like Magico, ARC, and Wilson have been wise enough to spread their products across many reviewers in many publications. That's why they are considered great marketers. But as you say, there is nothing like listening to the gear in your own system. Yet this is easier said than done with heavy and expensive products. And that's why there are 3 Q7's up for sale on Audiogon.

There's a difference between sending product out to several reviewers and sending product out to several "chosen" reviewers.

 

[microstrip]

Just curious what about my comments needs understanding? (...)

Priaptor,

Perhaps I should have been more clear. IMHO all valid audio comments about equipment performance must be digested - it is nice to openly expose our preferences, but if we know exactly the system of the poster and have some knowledge about the equipment being referred we can learn from posts.

I have to say that I have known Eliot G. from other forums since long - after reading his comment about your system I can not avoid becoming more interested in your posts. Although I respect all posters, I consider differently an opinion emitted by someone who listens at shows and shops or that of a system owner. BTW, have you tried the REF150 in your Nola's?

 

[Priaptor]

Priaptor,

Perhaps I should have been more clear. IMHO all valid audio comments about equipment performance must be digested - it is nice to openly expose our preferences, but if we know exactly the system of the poster and have some knowledge about the equipment being referred we can learn from posts.

I have to say that I have known Eliot G. from other forums since long - after reading his comment about your system I can not avoid becoming more interested in your posts. Although I respect all posters, I consider differently an opinion emitted by someone who listens at shows and shops or that of a system owner. BTW, have you tried the REF150 in your Nola's?

I haven't but I am going to try the REF75. That amp has me very intrigued. All who have listened have loved it. I am really looking forward to it.

By the way I really wanted to love the Q1s as my favorite speaker is a "monitor". I have always loved a monitor and one of the aspects of the Nolas I find so endearing are they are a "big" speaker that disappears with pinpoint accuracy and imaging like a monitor, a rarity with most large speakers-at least when set up properly.

I understand your point and question as too many flip comments are made from shows, as a result of reviewers, etc. I like to live with a product or system do have an open mind regarding other products and am married to nothing as you can see the transformation of my system and the products I have purchased, lived with, sold, "downgraded" and/or "upgraded" price wise at least.

I understand financially I am "fortunate or savvy" enough to be able to "try" and/or "buy" different components but I have indeed walked the walk with my system. This was not a simple task to get my system to where it is nor was it simple to get the second system up and running and optimized for the purposes of owning, not just trying.

 

[Priaptor]

There's a difference between sending product out to several reviewers and sending product out to several "chosen" reviewers.

Ahh, how true. Also those "chosen" reviewers are interesting. When the "chosen" get to live with the reviewed product longer than most of us lease a car, one has no choice to question bias.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Ahh, how true. Also those "chosen" reviewers are interesting. When the "chosen" get to live with the reviewed product longer than most of us lease a car, one has no choice to question bias.

I don't want to go OT here and perhaps this forms the topic of another thread but placing all the blame squarely on the reviewer's shoulders is mistaken. The manufacturer can demand the unit (s) being reviewed be returned--or paid for--at any time.

OTOH, let's take speaker reviews. Isn't it better for a reviewer to have several amplifiers (and you could insert cables, etc. here) around to use in the course of the review? Let's face it. Few reviewers are wealthy enough to own more than one amplifier.

 

[Elliot G.]

Priaptor,

Perhaps I should have been more clear. IMHO all valid audio comments about equipment performance must be digested - it is nice to openly expose our preferences, but if we know exactly the system of the poster and have some knowledge about the equipment being referred we can learn from posts.

I have to say that I have known Eliot G. from other forums since long - after reading his comment about your system I can not avoid becoming more interested in your posts. Although I respect all posters, I consider differently an opinion emitted by someone who listens at shows and shops or that of a system owner. BTW, have you tried the REF150 in your Nola's?

First, Thank you. What I said about the Priaptor's system is the truth as I see it. I have heard too many bad systems in my days and many from people who talk the talk but cant walk the walk.
Owning expensive gear is not the goal!!!! I think that gets lost along the way to those who dont really understand the techniques to setting up a great system. This can be done at levels far below this one albeit with more compromises.
As far as Marketing goes Magico is terrific at it. If you don't like Alon ( a somewhat common thought) it still doesn't take away that in a short time they have risen to the elite companies in the Industry. They did this with a good combo of advertising and reviews ( marketing).
The other companies that want to bitch have just not played the game as well. I personally respect what they have done even if I don't care for the product that much or the people behind it.

 

[Elliot G.]

I don't want to go OT here and perhaps this forms the topic of another thread but placing all the blame squarely on the reviewer's shoulders is mistaken. The manufacturer can demand the unit (s) being reviewed be returned--or paid for--at any time.

OTOH, let's take speaker reviews. Isn't it better for a reviewer to have several amplifiers (and you could insert cables, etc. here) around to use in the course of the review? Let's face it. Few reviewers are wealthy enough to own more than one amplifier.

Miles, I think the point here is that some reviewers have special privileges. Some reviewers make statements from drive by's at shows. Some reviewers let the manufacturers set up their systems since they seem not to be able to do it themselves. This is not said to condemn all reviewers just to say that the playing field is not equal or level and some readers cant tell the difference. I see a lot of what happens as end users looking for a permission slip to enjoy what they bought or to buy something that they are not sure about. The problem is its all convoluted. There seems to be a good review for everything in the vacuum. I know that you realize that audio is systematic and there are very few universally great things. an amp for example doesn't "sound" good on every speaker. I being a tube guy know that that technology will not drive every loudspeaker choice.
I see very little about systems et up and pictures for most reviewers systems and to be honest when I do I usually laugh at how poorly that process is executed. one mans view@!