Analog vs. digital music: What's better, and who cares?

[Bodhi]

Maybe Ralph could see from your profile that you don't own any LP playback gear(like other subjects on WBF), but you still feel the need to comment on the subject.

Jap, neither do I if you read my gear list. Does that mean I would also not be welcome to comment?

 

[jap]

Jap, neither do I if you read my gear list. Does that mean I would also not be welcome to comment?

I not a moderator, but if you feel comfortable questioning Ralph's comments about LP playback and you don't own a turntable go for it.

Tim seems to feel the need to comment on lots of stuff he doesn't own and hasn't never heard.


BTW, have you checked out the Signature upgrade for your Aesthetix gear?

 

[Don Hills]

... Just put this in some perspective, by the time you get to -45 db in a Redbook digital system, you are only working with 8 bits. IOW the fidelity is poor ...

This is incorrect. In a correctly functioning digital system, the fidelity does not decrease with decreasing bit depth. The dynamic range decreases, in the same way as it would if you were to make a cut on your lathe at -45 dB relative to max velocity.

Edit: Or, try this: Burn a CD with levels in the -45 to -60 dB range. Cut an LP with the same signals in the same level range. Play them back and use all the usual measures of "fidelity". I'll bet you'll find the CD sounds no worse than the LP at the lower levels.

 

[Bodhi]

I not a moderator, but if you feel comfortable questioning Ralph's comments about LP playback and you don't own a turntable go for it.

Tim seems to feel the need to comment on lots of stuff he doesn't own and hasn't never heard.


BTW, have you checked out the Signature upgrade for your Aesthetix gear?

I just jumped into the tail end of this thread, so I missed the earlier commentary. Suffice to say I am coming to respect Ralph's expert opinion, so only having a little experience myself with turntables I would certainly defer to more experienced members on more complex questions. That said, I've heard some great tables including Transrotor and AMG & was impressed by their dynamics, vividness, palpable tone & liquidity. They have a tap factor for sure.

It has been my view for a long time that it would upset the natural order if any cd players matched that level of sound all things being equal. But I do think a few players when properly setup & fully optimized are capable of getting bloody close playing well mastered high res recordings. I have made a casual enquiry before with my Dealer about the Signature upgrade, but passed on it as I plan on upgrading to a new high end player around the end of the year. I'm keeping that one under wraps for now though.

Bodhi

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Maybe Ralph could see from your profile that you don't own any LP playback gear(like other subjects on WBF), but you still feel the need to comment on the subject.

Maybe you need to read my post instead of my profile, and understand that what I commented on has
absolutely nothing to do with what is or is not in my system, but was about the logic of Ralph's post.

To the logic of your post: I don't own any horns. I have owned them. I've heard many. I understand their strengths and weaknesses, and that some of their greatest traditional weaknesses have been overcome in the best modern designs. But I don't own any. Shoud I be banned from discussing them? Should I be limited to discussing digital? To active monitors? I dont own any Event monutors, though I've heard them. But they're not in my profile. Should I refrain from discussing them? You evidently didn't read my post to Ralph, or at least you didn't understand what it was about. Should you be banned from commenting on it?

Re read my post to Ralph. Then read his post on page 6. In fact, read all of page 6. It's an interesting discussion which wouldn't exist by your logic, because anyone who does not own a cutter would not participate; Ralph would be talking to himself.

Tim

 

[jap]

Maybe you need to read my post instead of my profile, and understand that what I commented on has
absolutely nothing to do with what is or is not in my system, but was about the logic of Ralph's post.

To the logic of your post: I don't own any horns. I have owned them. I've heard many. I understand their strengths and weaknesses, and that some of their greatest traditional weaknesses have been overcome in the best modern designs. But I don't own any. Shoud I be banned from discussing them? Should I be limited to discussing digital? To active monitors? I dont own any Event monutors, though I've heard them. But they're not in my profile. Should I refrain from discussing them? You evidently didn't read my post to Ralph, or at least you didn't understand what it was about. Should you be banned from commenting on it?

Re read my post to Ralph. Then read his post on page 6. In fact, read all of page 6. It's an interesting discussion which wouldn't exist by your logic, because anyone who does not own a cutter would not participate; Ralph would be talking to himself.

Tim

With close to 8K posts, I'm sure you'll continue post on anything and everything.

 

[JackD201]

Settle down please gentlemen

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Settle down please gentlemen

I'm settled, Jack. Just not sitting back and allowing myself to be attacked by those who haven't even bothered to comprehend what they're attacking over.

And jap, yes, I have a lot of posts. I've been here a long time. Is there some reason why you changed the subject to my post count instead of replying to the post you quoted? I really would like to know what you think we should be allowed to discuss, based on the content of our current systems.

Tim

 

[JackD201]

The points have been made. Perhaps we can move things along? Closing threads is not one of my favorite activities.

 

[PeterA]

Please don't close this thread down. There is some good discussion in this one.

 

[JackD201]

I don't want to Peter. That's up to the guys though. It would be a waste if I or the any of the other mods did. None of us like having to close threads.

 

[rbbert]

...And jap, yes, I have a lot of posts. I've been here a long time. Is there some reason why you changed the subject to my post count instead of replying to the post you quoted? I really would like to know what you think we should be allowed to discuss, based on the content of our current systems.

Tim

I wouldn't learn much if I could only comment on what I already know!

Speaking of which, jap you have been asked about your equipment profile on a number of previous occasions; I still can't find it??

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Let me go back to the OP and the article posted.

I think this whole issue of one format being better than the other is rather silly and serves no real purpose other than to divide audiophiles into opposing sides. I prefer to think of it more as a preference and it's not just about the quality of sound either. Music listening for me is an experience that should satisfy at every level. I made my choice (vinyl) and I'm very happy about it. Selecting an LP, placing it on the platter, lowering the arm and then sitting down with the album jacket to look at and read whatever is there is something that brings me pleasure. Once finished, lovingly placing the LP in its anti-static sleeve and sliding it between the jacket and outer sleeve is equally satisfying. Yes, it feels good knowing one is taking care of their media.

Regarding digital media, I do not get that same level of total satisfaction and I can agree with Steve that my mind often wonders as I truly don't feel as involved. That's me and not a knock on digital media. I have some wonderful CD/SACDs I play fairly often, but I never go so far as having a digital playback listening session. I must admit here and now that digital is primarily reserved for casual playback.

 

[FrantzM]

I wouldn't learn much if I could only comment on what I already know!

<snip>

So true ...

 

[thedudeabides]

Another "Ground Hog" day thread / discussion about analogue versus digital. Anyone care to count how many of these this forum has entertained?

And the possibility that the thread maybe closed.

How unprecedented. How shocking.

 

[microstrip]

Thanks Ralph for taking the time to elicit so much detail on the facts at hand. Much appreciated.

+1!

 

[ack]

Completely agree with you Ralph - I have no idea what Jim Smith is talking about in that article... You and I have also discussed elsewhere that the dynamic range of the LP can even be in the triple digits...

There are some problems with this article that should be addressed. In effect, it is promulgating some mythology.

Here' some of the text with clarification:



3) You never see mention of the varying eq in the high frequencies as you get further into the center of the LP. In other words, cutting requirements may require a subtle (or sometimes severe) change in high frequencies as the stylus gets nearer to the inner grooves.

The reason you don't see this mentioned is it does not exist. The same EQ is used all the way across the LP. IOW this statement is flat out false.


4) Sadly, no engineering breakthroughs have occurred that significantly reduce inner groove distortion – it’s simply a part of the vinyl LP package.

This is incorrect- just talk to anyone with a straight-tracking arm.


5) You do know that no two phono cartridges sound the same, right? Question – is the one that you own the best of its breed? Have you compared it to other cartridges of the same manufacturer and model number? Just asking… ?

I have done something like this. Here's an interesting fact that came out of that test: the ability of the arm to track the cartridge properly is far more important than the cartridge itself! IOW this is pretty much a red herring. If you can set up the cartridge in the arm such that nothing can make it mis-track, you will find that to be the most important aspect of the sound of the cartridge. After you have done the setup make sure that the cartridge is loaded properly. Some phono sections are sensitive to RFI and the loading will be more critical.


6) The varying thickness of LPs will mean that you often will not be playing your LPs at the optimum SRA. Are you going to readjust for every record, or simply live with the resultant degradation in sound?

The fact of the matter is the SRA is not that critical. Why? When the mastering engineer replaces a stylus (they go for about 10 hours) the cutterhead has to be set up all over again- cutting depth, cutting pressure (similar to tracking pressure), alignment, setting up the lead track ball (if there is one; we use a Westerx 3D so there is); out of all this the actual cutting angle is never exact, its always pretty close. So even if two LPs are the same thickness the SRA could be different anyway.


7) As someone who has made hundreds of master recordings, both 30 IPS analog and digital, to say that analog LPs deliver the music powerfully is to say that I have never heard a master compared to the commercial LP. The tape master makes the LP sound broken – lacking in dynamics, tone, & presence. No turntable at – any price – can bridge the inherent gap between the master tape and the mastered LP. It is HUGE – and even that comparison assumes the use of a correctly set-up turntable/phono-stage rig.

Sounds like he's working with poor mastering operations. Really.


9) One more mechanical that can sometimes be addressed would be the variable ratio of moment of inertia of the counterweight and cartridge (when the option is available).

What is more important than that is having the bearings of the arm in the same plane as the LP; failing that using a counterweight that has its mass below the arm tube.


10) The areas that seem to consistently benefit from a bit more work are phono cartridge loading, vertical tracking force, VTA/SRA, and anti-skate. I do NOT feel that gauges can get this job done – you need to LISTEN to the effects of all of them. And they are inter-related – as is room temperature.

You can easily set up loading with a square wave generator and an oscilloscope, but in the case of LOMC the loading has not effect at audio frequencies anyway. It has a big effect at Radio Frequencies. Some preamps are sensitive this way and others aren't. If they are not sensitive to RFI, loading will have no audible effect.

12) Need I mention LP surface noise?

As I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, design of the phono preamp can cause the unit to emphasize ticks and pops. IOW not all phono preamps do. If you have one that is designed properly ticks and pops are profoundly quieter. Add to that how silent the pressings are coming from QRP and surface noise just isn't. The phono preamp and the source of the recording itself become the actual noise floor.

The way QRP did this BTW was to modify their pressing machines to not shake and vibrate as the vinyl is being pressed. Seems like a sensible thing to do but before they came along no-one ever did that! Why take your machines out of service when they are always busy? But that is what QRP did and it paid off in spades.

 

[BlueFox]

I made my choice (vinyl) and I'm very happy about it. Selecting an LP, placing it on the platter, lowering the arm and then sitting down with the album jacket to look at and read whatever is there is something that brings me pleasure. Once finished, lovingly placing the LP in its anti-static sleeve and sliding it between the jacket and outer sleeve is equally satisfying. Yes, it feels good knowing one is taking care of their media.

You and I are opposites. When it comes to music, I love to listen to it. Not frack with it.

 

[Jim Smith]

Big fan of Ralph's work and his style on the forums.

But I don't agree at all with some of his observations here.

This thread is too argumentative for me, so this is all I have to say. :b

 

[rbbert]

You and I are opposites. When it comes to music, I love to listen to it. Not frack with it.

+1