Analog vs. digital music: What's better, and who cares?

[MylesBAstor]

Excess bandwidth is there in all electronics because we can hear the effects of it even if we can't hear the frequencies themselves and even if there is nothing up there to hear anyway. The engineering rule of thumb is that phase shift artifact will be found to frequencies 1/10th the cutoff, so if we cut off at 20KHz there is artifact all the way down to 2KHz- right in the midrange where our ears are pretty sensitive (see Fletcher-Munson). So its not pointless- you want HiFi that is how its done. The rest of your post I see as trolling and reported it.



If you can get tape to go from 5Hz to 35KHz that's fabulous! But I have not seen that. LPs can do that easily.

Tim's machine can.

http://audiolemon.blogspot.com/2007/08/studer-c37-valve-reel-to-reel-tape.html
I haven't seen the specs but imagine Keith's machine can also.

 

[rbbert]

So after five pages, I don't think anyone actually read Steve's piece but are shooting from the hip.

Not so, and iI think my first post here was relevant even if not revelatory. As I've posted before, even I didn't usually prefer sound from well-mastered digital sources, the whole rigamarole of LP's and the limited playing time of an LP side both serve to distract me from listening to the music, rather than the reverse.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Not so, and iI think my first post here was relevant even if not revelatory. As I've posted before, even I didn't usually prefer sound from well-mastered digital sources, the whole rigamarole of LP's and the limited playing time of an LP side both serve to distract me from listening to the music, rather than the reverse.

Well we have one who did other than Dan.

 

[Atmasphere]

The bias freq. is printed to tape and what's that.... 150k - 500k

The bias frequency is that high so it will not interact with harmonic distortion from the record electronics. If it does, you get intermodulations- 'birdies'. It does not 'print to tape'; it is that high so that its relationship with the head gap is such that it *won't* get recorded. The idea is that by doing this, saturation issues due to the construction of the head and the formula of the tape can be minimized. The area that this affects is low level signals- if you have higher level signals you don't really need the bias.

You posted about mastering and cutting. You pointed out yourself, repeatedly, that the limitations of vinyl are in playback. How on earth is it trolling to point out that those of us who live with playback systems, not in mastering suites, live with those limitations? That's one of the more absurd conclusions I've seen in a long time.

Tim

In case you hadn't noticed this is entirely different from your prior [omitted] post!

To address the comment above: You are exaggerating excessively; the limitations in playback (having to do with the arm and cartridge) are not so profound as you seem to suggest. They are in fact doing well enough that after 30+ years of digital technology, enough people (audiophiles included but a minority) are still preferring LPs. This is a market force and you really don't have to know anything technical here to understand that LPs would be long gone if the playback limitations were actually a real problem.

An example of formats that really were inferior and are long gone, just so we are clear on this: the 8-track (collectible to some, and no-one makes them), the minidisk, the Elcassette; anyone can see that these formats are dead.

LP is not dead for the simple reason that it failed to be inferior to the succeeding art as mentioned earlier (most of the mastering houses in the US have a 6-month backlog right now). As far as tonearm/cartridge limits, I have seen grooves that will cause our Technics SL1200 problems, but the same grooves track effortlessly on my Triplanar. When we cut the LP though we can't count on everyone having a Triplanar, but so far in all the projects we have done we've not actually had to apply any limiting at all. What we *have* had to do was try several cuts at various lead screw speeds, stylus depths and also perhaps reduced the overall modulation by a 1db or so- that may not be very audible but it can make a big difference in the groove. So care has a lot to do with it, that and understanding what the tonearm and cartridge will be able to handle.

 

[RogerD]

So after five pages, I don't think anyone actually read Steve's piece but are shooting from the hip.

Who listens like he does with a 100k+ system? Or much less 500K. I listen for enjoyment too but I take my sound very seriously and I do listen differently than most,but that has more to do with my system than the music.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Who listens like he does with a 100k+ system? Or much less 500K. I listen for enjoyment too but I take my sound very seriously and I do listen differently than most,but that has more to do with my system than the music.

I'm pretty sure Steve doesn't listen to a 100 K system. (Unless you're referring to our Steve.) Did Guttenberg actually say that in his piece? If you follow Steve's writing, there's actually no one more down to earth and he makes it a point to review equipment that is accessible to almost all music lovers. For instance, $300 turntables, $500 speakers, etc.

But truth be told Roger, we did a survey a while back and we have many, many members on WBF with systems at or above 100 K in value. So please make us understand how that detracts from their ability to enjoy the music? In fact, all things being equal, it actually enhances my musical enjoyment because for instance in my case I understand far more of the composer's or musician's intent. All classical lovers should listen to v. 1 and 2 of Howard Hanson's The Composer and His Orchestra to really appreciate the intricacies of musical composition and how that impacts the sound of the orchestra or read Aaron Copland's book On Music.

 

[RogerD]

I'm pretty sure Steve doesn't listen to a 100 K system. (Unless you're referring to our Steve.) Did Guttenberg actually say that in his piece? If you follow Steve's writing, there's actually no one more down to earth and he makes it a point to review equipment that is accessible to almost all music lovers. For instance, $300 turntables, $500 speakers, etc.

But truth be told Roger, we did a survey a while back and we have many, many members on WBF with systems at or above 100 K in value. So please make us understand how that detracts from their ability to enjoy the music? In fact, all things being equal, it actually enhances my musical enjoyment because for instance in my case I understand far more of the composer's or musician's intent. All classical lovers should listen to v. 1 and 2 of Howard Hanson's The Composer and His Orchestra to really appreciate the intricacies of musical composition and how that impacts the sound of the orchestra or read Aaron Copland's book On Music.

Hi Myles,

My point was pretty much what you have stated. All my RTR,CD's,ect I listen intently because my system is, I believe able to keep my attention, why......because I listen to a level of reproduction that breathes life into the maker of the music. I just thought it kinda odd that Steve would "wonder off" just because it's digital. Steve does not need to spend 100K to experience the music,but I would suggest something is lacking somewhere.

p.s. including two RTR's that I use as preamps I am easily under 50K

 

[PeterA]

For another perspective, here is a link to an article that Jim Smith wrote in The High Fidelity Report about the limitations of the analog medium. It's an interesting and perhaps thought provoking read:

http://thehighfidelityreport.com/big-wheel-keep-on-turning/

 

[MylesBAstor]

Hi Myles,

My point was pretty much what you have stated. All my RTR,CD's,ect I listen intently because my system is, I believe able to keep my attention, why......because I listen to a level of reproduction that breathes life into the maker of the music. I just thought it kinda odd that Steve would "wonder off" just because it's digital. Steve does not need to spend 100K to experience the music,but I would suggest something is lacking somewhere.

p.s. including two RTR's that I use as preamps I am easily under 50K

You don't understand why Steve's attention would wander? I do.

 

[rbbert]

You don't understand why Steve's attention would wander? I do.

Can you elucidate?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

The bias frequency is that high so it will not interact with harmonic distortion from the record electronics. If it does, you get intermodulations- 'birdies'. It does not 'print to tape'; it is that high so that its relationship with the head gap is such that it *won't* get recorded. The idea is that by doing this, saturation issues due to the construction of the head and the formula of the tape can be minimized. The area that this affects is low level signals- if you have higher level signals you don't really need the bias.



In case you hadn't noticed this is entirely different from your prior post! I will not comment on the rest of your prior posting as having reported it, I am not going to also attempt to moderate per forum rules.

To address the comment above: You are exaggerating excessively; the limitations in playback (having to do with the arm and cartridge) are not so profound as you seem to suggest. They are in fact doing well enough that after 30+ years of digital technology, enough people (audiophiles included but a minority) are still preferring LPs. This is a market force and you really don't have to know anything technical here to understand that LPs would be long gone if the playback limitations were actually a real problem.

An example of formats that really were inferior and are long gone, just so we are clear on this: the 8-track (collectible to some, and no-one makes them), the minidisk, the Elcassette; anyone can see that these formats are dead.

LP is not dead for the simple reason that it failed to be inferior to the succeeding art as mentioned earlier (most of the mastering houses in the US have a 6-month backlog right now). As far as tonearm/cartridge limits, I have seen grooves that will cause our Technics SL1200 problems, but the same grooves track effortlessly on my Triplanar. When we cut the LP though we can't count on everyone having a Triplanar, but so far in all the projects we have done we've not actually had to apply any limiting at all. What we *have* had to do was try several cuts at various lead screw speeds, stylus depths and also perhaps reduced the overall modulation by a 1db or so- that may not be very audible but it can make a big difference in the groove. So care has a lot to do with it, that and understanding what the tonearm and cartridge will be able to handle.

I must admit I'm completely confused, Ralph. I didn't suggest any limitations in playback, you did, and I didn't say LP is a dead medium. You talked about the theoretical and practical capabilities of mastering vinyl and said its limitations were in playback. I merely pointed out that the rest of us don't live in the mastering suite, and that playback is all we have. I'm struggling to understand how that is so offensive, but my apologies, nonetheless.

Tim

 

[treitz3]

Good afternoon gentlemen. Some posts have been edited and/or removed. Allow me to remind members that cordial participation is a key requisite of being a member in our forum. If in our opinion you are violating this rule, administrative action may be taken which may include termination of your membership and deletion of your posts with or without notice. Your forum administrators rule with a gentle hand. But should the occasion arise where we must take immediate and strong action, we will do so. In that case, our decisions are not subject to debate.

Please remember when posting to post in a manner which is not disruptive, disrespectful, argumentative, confronting or trolling in nature.

Tom

 

[rockitman]

Good afternoon gentlemen. Some posts have been edited and/or removed. Allow me to remind members that cordial participation is a key requisite of being a member in our forum. If in our opinion you are violating this rule, administrative action may be taken which may include termination of your membership and deletion of your posts with or without notice. Your forum administrators rule with a gentle hand. But should the occasion arise where we must take immediate and strong action, we will do so. In that case, our decisions are not subject to debate.

Please remember when posting to post in a manner which is not disruptive, disrespectful, argumentative, confronting or trolling in nature.

Tom

Tom, perhaps if you changed font color to red, there would be more effect ? Red Stop, Green go with caution. Cheers

 

[RogerD]

You don't understand why Steve's attention would wander? I do.

Good looking wife??

 

[MylesBAstor]

Tom, perhaps of you changed font color to red, there would be more effect ? Red Stop, Green go with caution. Cheers

LOL... and black for death.

 

[Atmasphere]

I must admit I'm completely confused, Ralph. I didn't suggest any limitations in playback, you did, and I didn't say LP is a dead medium. You talked about the theoretical and practical capabilities of mastering vinyl and said its limitations were in playback. I merely pointed out that the rest of us don't live in the mastering suite, and that playback is all we have. I'm struggling to understand how that is so offensive, but my apologies, nonetheless.

Tim

Yes: to be clear what I said about the LP medium is that its limitations were in the playback process, not the record side. By this I mean that it is possible to record things that no reproducer currently can play back without distortion.

For this reason, the mark of a good mastering engineer is to understand those limitations to make a playable LP. Mostly this has to do with dynamic range and you can expect a LF cutoff frequency of about 12 Hz or so due to the mechanical resonance of a properly set up reproducer. Most reproducers can go well above 30KHz, and distortion is not an issue if the reproducer is set up correctly. IOW the primary limitation is dynamic range.

However, if the variables are controlled this means that the dynamic range might be 90 db or more, this depending entirely on the noise floor of the phono playback equalizer.

Just put this in some perspective, by the time you get to -45 db in a Redbook digital system, you are only working with 8 bits. IOW the fidelity is poor, so it is common practice to compress the recording to take advantage of the greater resolution available when more bits are in play. So If we are talking about high fidelity in many practical situations the LP is going to have greater dynamic range than the CD of the same recording. Whether the producer is going to take advantage of this fact is another matter altogether.

 

[Atmasphere]

For another perspective, here is a link to an article that Jim Smith wrote in The High Fidelity Report about the limitations of the analog medium. It's an interesting and perhaps thought provoking read:

http://thehighfidelityreport.com/big-wheel-keep-on-turning/

There are some problems with this article that should be addressed. In effect, it is promulgating some mythology.

Here' some of the text with clarification:



3) You never see mention of the varying eq in the high frequencies as you get further into the center of the LP. In other words, cutting requirements may require a subtle (or sometimes severe) change in high frequencies as the stylus gets nearer to the inner grooves.

The reason you don't see this mentioned is it does not exist. The same EQ is used all the way across the LP. IOW this statement is flat out false.


4) Sadly, no engineering breakthroughs have occurred that significantly reduce inner groove distortion – it’s simply a part of the vinyl LP package.

This is incorrect- just talk to anyone with a straight-tracking arm.


5) You do know that no two phono cartridges sound the same, right? Question – is the one that you own the best of its breed? Have you compared it to other cartridges of the same manufacturer and model number? Just asking… ?

I have done something like this. Here's an interesting fact that came out of that test: the ability of the arm to track the cartridge properly is far more important than the cartridge itself! IOW this is pretty much a red herring. If you can set up the cartridge in the arm such that nothing can make it mis-track, you will find that to be the most important aspect of the sound of the cartridge. After you have done the setup make sure that the cartridge is loaded properly. Some phono sections are sensitive to RFI and the loading will be more critical.


6) The varying thickness of LPs will mean that you often will not be playing your LPs at the optimum SRA. Are you going to readjust for every record, or simply live with the resultant degradation in sound?

The fact of the matter is the SRA is not that critical. Why? When the mastering engineer replaces a stylus (they go for about 10 hours) the cutterhead has to be set up all over again- cutting depth, cutting pressure (similar to tracking pressure), alignment, setting up the lead track ball (if there is one; we use a Westerx 3D so there is); out of all this the actual cutting angle is never exact, its always pretty close. So even if two LPs are the same thickness the SRA could be different anyway.


7) As someone who has made hundreds of master recordings, both 30 IPS analog and digital, to say that analog LPs deliver the music powerfully is to say that I have never heard a master compared to the commercial LP. The tape master makes the LP sound broken – lacking in dynamics, tone, & presence. No turntable at – any price – can bridge the inherent gap between the master tape and the mastered LP. It is HUGE – and even that comparison assumes the use of a correctly set-up turntable/phono-stage rig.

Sounds like he's working with poor mastering operations. Really.


9) One more mechanical that can sometimes be addressed would be the variable ratio of moment of inertia of the counterweight and cartridge (when the option is available).

What is more important than that is having the bearings of the arm in the same plane as the LP; failing that using a counterweight that has its mass below the arm tube.


10) The areas that seem to consistently benefit from a bit more work are phono cartridge loading, vertical tracking force, VTA/SRA, and anti-skate. I do NOT feel that gauges can get this job done – you need to LISTEN to the effects of all of them. And they are inter-related – as is room temperature.

You can easily set up loading with a square wave generator and an oscilloscope, but in the case of LOMC the loading has no effect at audio frequencies anyway. It has a big effect at Radio Frequencies. Some preamps are sensitive this way and others aren't. If they are not sensitive to RFI, loading will have no audible effect.

12) Need I mention LP surface noise?

As I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, design of the phono preamp can cause the unit to emphasize ticks and pops. IOW not all phono preamps do. If you have one that is designed properly ticks and pops are profoundly quieter. Add to that how silent the pressings are coming from QRP and surface noise just isn't. The phono preamp and the source of the recording itself become the actual noise floor.

The way QRP did this BTW was to modify their pressing machines to not shake and vibrate as the vinyl is being pressed. Seems like a sensible thing to do but before they came along no-one ever did that! Why take your machines out of service when they are always busy? But that is what QRP did and it paid off in spades.

 

[rockitman]

Thanks Ralph for taking the time to elicit so much detail on the facts at hand. Much appreciated.

 

[Bruce B]

Thanks Ralph for taking the time to elicit so much detail on the facts at hand. Much appreciated.

+1.... Thanks Ralph..

 

[jap]

I must admit I'm completely confused, Ralph. I didn't suggest any limitations in playback, you did, and I didn't say LP is a dead medium. You talked about the theoretical and practical capabilities of mastering vinyl and said its limitations were in playback. I merely pointed out that the rest of us don't live in the mastering suite, and that playback is all we have. I'm struggling to understand how that is so offensive, but my apologies, nonetheless.

Tim

Maybe Ralph could see from your profile that you don't own any LP playback gear(like other subjects on WBF), but you still feel the need to comment on the subject.