Ron's Speaker, Turntable, Power and Room Treatment Upgrades

Folsom · Oct 17, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
I have a rule: no exposed glass anywhere in the listening room. So all glass on the back wall will be covered with sound absorbing material.

Well, that's certainly a less expensive route. Good safety glass can easily hit $300/sqft. But it sounds at least as good as wood and so far I'd say better. I would at least listen once before you cover the back wall, to see how much you like the dipole. I'd expect the HF to be off, with regular windows.

PeterA said:
When I replaced the 6/6 double hung window sashes in our historic house, I was told that I could not install double-paned glass, so I had custom single pane, true divided 6/6 sashes made with individual thick laminated glass panes. They are very heavy and really block the outside noise from the listening room. These openings are covered with wooden louvered blinds that I adjust so that they reflect the direct sound down toward the thick carpet. I was surprised how effective this solution turned out.

Even though my solution is nothing like Ron's situation and our rooms could not be more different, I mention it for general interest regarding glass types. Small, individual laminated glass panes work really well in my circumstance by both blocking outside noise and by not ringing excessively.

Nice. How thick? I've been playing with some around 1/2". Heavy? oh man... I literally just about had a hernia (warm feeling that accompanies one came). They certainly stop sound. If you tap on them you get nothing but the sound of a finger.

Reflections can be good or bad. In the dipole situation so long as the time alignment isn't bad, it can be just fine to have direct reflections. Although you may still end up with some side ones you wish to treat; that are at a different point than the main speakers side 1st reflection. In your case with it not being fullrange they tend to not be so beneficial as it's more of a poorly EQ'd ambiance since it isn't fullrange for what wraps around the bookshelves style speaker.

bonzo75 · Oct 17, 2017

What is safety glass?

Ron Resnick · Oct 17, 2017

PeterA said:
Ron, That is very humble of you and so modest. However, I disagree. I would consider any system that supports/includes your four-tower Gryphon Pendragons and the American Sound turntable with top arm/cartridge to be an all out assault. It does not mean that you will achieve world class sound, though I hope you do, but the quality of the gear is certainly at the top of the high end. I agree that not having a dedicated, purpose designed listening room MAY be your challenge to true SOTA sound. Time will tell and we all wish you the best with this project.

Thank you very much, Peter.

Ron Resnick · Oct 17, 2017

RBFC said:
Ron,

27 ft long. Speakers 7 ft from front wall, chair 10.5 ft from perpendicular bisector of speakers, back wall 9.5 ft behind me.

Lee

27' is great, Lee!

microstrip · Oct 17, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
This makes sense, Peter. But I would have to engage Jim to figure that out. Maybe Bonnie can measure that as well.

Although I love these threads, IMHO once you get a consultant you should follow her advice blindly. Tell her what type of sound you like, how you like to listen and what is the equipment. Then trusts her!

Folsom · Oct 17, 2017

bonzo75 said:
What is safety glass?

You can get different variance of it but...

Think large corporate buildings, and industrial settings. It is two pieces of tempered glass that are often pretty thick, laminated together with some type of polyvinyl or such inbetween.

They can shatter but they don't fall apart due to lamination. For example in industrial settings they protect operators of machinery from flying wood/logs/metal/etc. Even if the glass breaks, they aren't impaled since the glass stays right where it is at.

In large buildings they prevent the glass from transmitting noise, so you can use them anywhere you don't want noise from the next room. And on the exterior they block wind/traffic noise, while also making sure if you go flying into one you'll bounce off instead of plummeting to your death (even if the glass cracks).

PeterA · Oct 17, 2017

Folsom said:
Well, that's certainly a less expensive route. Good safety glass can easily hit $300/sqft. But it sounds at least as good as wood and so far I'd say better. I would at least listen once before you cover the back wall, to see how much you like the dipole. I'd expect the HF to be off, with regular windows.

Nice. How thick? I've been playing with some around 1/2". Heavy? oh man... I literally just about had a hernia (warm feeling that accompanies one came). They certainly stop sound. If you tap on them you get nothing but the sound of a finger.

Reflections can be good or bad. In the dipole situation so long as the time alignment isn't bad, it can be just fine to have direct reflections. Although you may still end up with some side ones you wish to treat; that are at a different point than the main speakers side 1st reflection. In your case with it not being fullrange they tend to not be so beneficial as it's more of a poorly EQ'd ambiance since it isn't fullrange for what wraps around the bookshelves style speaker.

My laminated glass is about 3/16" thick. Pretty thin, but it had to work in historic true divided 6/6 window sashes. Much thicker and then the wood mullions would have to be too deep. I also have traditional storm windows about 2" outside the sashes. They help with noise transmission too, a bit. Thicker is better, for sure.

I think the difference between tempered (safety) glass and laminated glass is that the former shatters into tiny pieces instead of large shards. Both have a film between two sheets of glass preventing broken pieces from falling out of the frame.

Steve Williams · Oct 17, 2017

microstrip said:
Although I love these threads, IMHO once you get a consultant you should follow her advice blindly. Tell her what type of sound you like, how you like to listen and what is the equipment. Then trusts her!

Totally agree

That was what I did. It was often painful wondering how it will turn out but I was pleased

Ron Resnick · Oct 17, 2017

Steve Williams said:
Totally agree

That was what I did. It was often painful wondering how it will turn out but I was pleased

I understand, Steve and microstrip. That makes perfectly good sense. But on the room treatment I like to be a little more engaged.

I want Bonnie to take measurements first, make her recommendations, and then I will decide what to do. I am happy that MikeL's admonition today made me realize I can wrap just the back third of the room in curtains, leaving the front two-thirds of the room untreated except for Tube Traps and first reflection absorbers (just like in the first photo on this thread of my old set-up in this room). So the room is going to start fairly "live" -- where my old stereo left off.

I have to consider whether to fill the cavities of the asymmetrical soffit with some sort of sound-absorbing or bass trap type of material.

What is the conventional wisdom on whether to use absorption or diffusion at the point of the first reflections? What are the pros and cons of absorption or diffusion at the first reflection points?

JackD201 · Oct 17, 2017

Hi Ron

Love the progress! Absorption deadens the first reflection while diffusion spreads the energy over a wider area for more even coverage. Choosing which is a matter of which goal you've set. Generally if you want to hear only what's on the recording you absorb. If you intend to use the space as part of the overall effect you use a combination.

An alternative to using drapes behind you is to use a movable diffusor that you can set up behind your listening chair.

In any case seeing how Bonnie works based on Steve and Bobvin, she ain't no one trick pony. I'm sure she'll come up with a set of solutions to fit your requirements. Just be sure to tell her exactly what you are after.

Mike Lavigne · Oct 17, 2017

microstrip said:
Although I love these threads, IMHO once you get a consultant you should follow her advice blindly. Tell her what type of sound you like, how you like to listen and what is the equipment. Then trusts her!

sounds familiar; I did that same thing 13 years ago.

now my room is all different.

and so am I. been there, done that. turns out I had to find my sonic reference, to get the room right. thought I had it then, but I did not.

a very humbling experience, lots of fun, educational, but a great ride too. not sure I could have got here any other way. and i'm happy here.

but i'm me, and Ron is Ron.

go for it Ron; do it your way! and I mean that in the most positive and sincere way.

BruceD · Oct 18, 2017

Concur here with Micro and Steve--Ron, you have the advantage of the expert wisdom of your "Acoustician" leave it to her to come up with the suggestions and hopefully answers.

I've found in my experiences that inspite of WAF's dictating, Rental limitations, Decor distracting/ etc some form of room "control" is necessary to bring together the Musical enjoyment we have paid our hard earned to garner!

With folks like Jim Smith , Art Noxson and others --this can be achieved to the degree that one chooses for Domestic and Sonic harmony.

Your quest is well on that right track--Kudos

My own ventures having spent last 30 odd years travelling and living in various Countries for work--I've lugged my faithful ASC traps with me--yes true!--done this since 1990

I can align near perfectly now any abode I lay my head - using the tried and true Formulas from Art's team--when I vacate same--I pack em up and they move with me--voila

Glad to see you will utilise them on your front wall--- Hope they work for you--looking forward to seeing the finished room--it looks like a winner

Keep up the good work

BruceD

ddk · Oct 18, 2017

One of the things I always end up doing in every so called "expert" designed room installation is to rip stuff out and fix mistakes, I'm still looking for that listening room expert who knows what they're doing. I find most of the rooms way too dead, uneven and patchy. Ron is 100% correct in staying engaged and questioning Bonnie or anyone else he might use.

david

bonzo75 · Oct 18, 2017

ddk said:
One of the things I always end up doing in every so called "expert" designed room installation is to rip stuff out and fix mistakes, I'm still looking for that listening room expert who knows what they're doing. I find most of the rooms way too dead, uneven and patchy. Ron is 100% correct in staying engaged and questioning Bonnie or anyone else he might use.

david

+1. The only two I would hire to treat my room if I could afford it are Mike and Marty. And then Bill Ying

ddk · Oct 18, 2017

microstrip said:
Although I love these threads, IMHO once you get a consultant you should follow her advice blindly. Tell her what type of sound you like, how you like to listen and what is the equipment. Then trusts her!

LOL

Francisco, find one that can even wire up a system no less design a room for it. Before hiring an"expert" give him/her your room key and ask them to setup the system and see what you get. There's a lot more to designing a listening space than taking some measurements and coming up with a theoretical model from experts who're clueless even what a high end system is no less what's involved in getting it to sound right.

david

Steve Williams · Oct 18, 2017

ddk said:
LOL Francisco, find one that can even wire up a system no less design a room for it. Before hiring an"expert" give him/her your room key and ask them to setup the system and see what you get. Theres a lot more to designing a listening space than taking some measurements and coming up with a theoretical model from experts who're clueless about what a high end system is no less what's involved in getting it to sound right.

david

you do make valid points David as both Mike and I found in our rooms

microstrip · Oct 18, 2017

ddk said:
LOL Francisco, find one that can even wire up a system no less design a room for it. Before hiring an"expert" give him/her your room key and ask them to setup the system and see what you get. There's a lot more to designing a listening space than taking some measurements and coming up with a theoretical model from experts who're clueless even what a high end system is no less what's involved in getting it to sound right.

david

I was only addressing acoustics consultants - surely not audio consultants. It was what was being debated. My point is that once you hire someone to acoustically design your room you must follow his complete advice and then listen to the outcome when the system comes in.

An acoustic consultant is not a forum adviser - he should be able to design and carry the full project, surely listening to the owner and including his preferences in the design.

And yes, I never found such person locally, but I am sure Steve did not impose his opinions on sound treatment to Bonnie ...

microstrip · Oct 18, 2017

Steve Williams said:
you do make valid points David as both Mike and I found in our rooms

Steve, you, David and Mike are not exactly what I call typical audio consumers ...

ddk · Oct 18, 2017

microstrip said:
I was only addressing acoustics consultants - surely not audio consultants. It was what was being debated. My point is that once you hire someone to acoustically design your room you must follow his complete advice and then listen to the outcome when the system comes in.

An acoustic consultant is not a forum adviser - he should be able to design and carry the full project, surely listening to the owner and including his preferences in the design.

And yes, I never found such person locally, but I am sure Steve did not impose his opinions on sound treatment to Bonnie ...

You read Steve's and Mike's replies? Please make a wish list as you're going to present it to the acoustician, I'd love to see how you're going to explain the needs of a system to a non-audiophile.

We're not designing a space from scratch the goal here is to make an existing space more system friendly and in Ron's case it's also a living space for a couple which adds to the complexity. You can't expect an acoustician even with knowledge of systems and setup needs or frankly anyone else to make recommendations based on an obscure checklist for a system that no one has ever heard in a space that no one's lived in specially given the complexity of Ron's system and limitations imposed on the space. If it's me I'll first get a setup expert like Jim Smith, who I think is a member here, to come in for a couple days for initial setup then live with the system for a couple of months identify what's right and wrong and how it fits my lifestyle, then get him back in again before contemplating hiring an acoustician. No one has a magic wand there are always steps to take and you need someone who's done enough to know which direction to take those steps.

david

JackD201 · Oct 18, 2017

Building up an existing space is indeed a whole different ballgame given how important geometry and construction of the bare room is. Adjustments are par for the course. Sometimes you add, sometimes you remove. That's very normal. In my case I changed stuffing material and densities when I changed speakers to much larger ones. Twice as large to be exact.

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