Ron's Speaker, Turntable, Power and Room Treatment Upgrades

[Folsom]

Hi Ron

Love the progress! Absorption deadens the first reflection while diffusion spreads the energy over a wider area for more even coverage. Choosing which is a matter of which goal you've set. Generally if you want to hear only what's on the recording you absorb. If you intend to use the space as part of the overall effect you use a combination.

An alternative to using drapes behind you is to use a movable diffusor that you can set up behind your listening chair.

In any case seeing how Bonnie works based on Steve and Bobvin, she ain't no one trick pony. I'm sure she'll come up with a set of solutions to fit your requirements. Just be sure to tell her exactly what you are after.

I'd be curious about using the ones that cause time delay, not absorption or diffusion.

Personally I think diffusion can be muting in a weird way. Absorption can work but it also sounds strange to the ear at times.

 

[Believe High Fidelity]

You read Steve's and Mike's replies? Please make a wish list as you're going to present it to the acoustician, I'd love to see how you're going to explain the needs of a system to a non-audiophile.

We're not designing a space from scratch the goal here is to make an existing space more system friendly and in Ron's case it's also a living space for a couple which adds to the complexity. You can't expect an acoustician even with knowledge of systems and setup needs or frankly anyone else to make recommendations based on an obscure checklist for a system that no one has ever heard in a space that no one's lived in specially given the complexity of Ron's system and limitations imposed on the space. If it's me I'll first get a setup expert like Jim Smith, who I think is a member here, to come in for a couple days for initial setup then live with the system for a couple of months identify what's right and wrong and how it fits my lifestyle, then get him back in again before contemplating hiring an acoustician. No one has a magic wand there are always steps to take and you need someone who's done enough to know which direction to take those steps.

david

I agree wholeheartedly. My advice is to use someone from the audiophile world.

http://www.acusticaapplicata.com/prodotti.php?lang=eng (distributed by Avalon) - These guys have taken many terrible hotel rooms and made them sound marvelous most recently the RMAF room.

https://www.acousticfields.com/contact-us/ - Option 2 and they are local in CA. Visit some of their customers rooms for validation that they know their chops.

Both recommendations are what I will be personally using come custom room time. You can have the best of both worlds, don't settle and use an acoustician who doesn't know what you are and what you are precisely looking for.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you, Mike, I appreciate it!

I actually think David's suggestion makes a lot of sense.

Thank you, Believe High Fidelity, but as Steve and Bob Vin will attest, Bonnie understands audiophile sensitivities.

I will do a mix. I am not blindly relinquishing decision-making to Bonnie. It is not "let me know when it is all completed."

No matter what I would put a carpet pad under the carpet which covers the entire floor of the listening room except for a seven foot strip which is going to remain wood and which is where the speakers and the amplifiers will be located. For the carpet pad I am sure Bonnie will recommend either her Vibramat or NoiseOut product.

No matter what I would install acoustic drapes in the rear third of the listening room covering the entire rear wall, and the opening to the equipment and back to the rear wall and the opening to the kitchen and back to the rear wall, in each case from the floor up to a height of nine feet from the floor. This will dampen reflections and provide absorption around the rear third of the room, and delineate visually a rectangular space. For this Bonnie will specify some thickness of her Lumitex product based on her acoustic measurements. Left to my own devices I would request only a thin layer of Lumitex.

No matter what I would put absorbers or diffusers at the first reflection points.

No matter what I would put towers of Tube Traps in the front corners of the room.

So, left to my own devices, this will be my starting point, but using Bonnie's products. After we do this, Bonnie can take a second round of measurements and see if she makes any further recommendations.

This starting point leaves the front two-thirds of the room untreated except for the first reflection points, and the bass traps in the front corners.

 

[JackD201]

I'd be curious about using the ones that cause time delay, not absorption or diffusion.

Personally I think diffusion can be muting in a weird way. Absorption can work but it also sounds strange to the ear at times.

Reflectors work too. The painting I have in front (Acrylic on ply around 7ft x 5 ft) directs reflections up towards cloud absorber/diffusors. Usually we see them as splay elements on side walls. The redirection allows the sound to die off over the now longer distance but to be most effective I've found that it's best to catch the second reflection off of them.

 

[audioguy]

This starting point leaves the front two-thirds of the room untreated except for the first reflection points, and the bass traps in the front corners.

I am not a professional acoustician but having built 4 or 5 listening spaces, I am almost completely with you on your approach. I would suggest you consider something mid point on the wall behind the speakers (front wall) at the very least.

Just my $0.02

 

[Ron Resnick]

This is a photo showing the opening to the kitchen on the left side of the room (the right side in this photo) and the ceiling soffit above the rear left side of the listening room.





Perhaps those cavities should be filled up with sound absorbing material or some bass trap material. We will see . . .


Here is a photo of the rear wall of the listening room:





Here you can see the opening to the equipment room on the right side of the room (the left side in this photo).

 

[Ron Resnick]

Hi Ron

Love the progress! Absorption deadens the first reflection while diffusion spreads the energy over a wider area for more even coverage. Choosing which is a matter of which goal you've set. Generally if you want to hear only what's on the recording you absorb. If you intend to use the space as part of the overall effect you use a combination.

An alternative to using drapes behind you is to use a movable diffusor that you can set up behind your listening chair.

In any case seeing how Bonnie works based on Steve and Bobvin, she ain't no one trick pony. I'm sure she'll come up with a set of solutions to fit your requirements. Just be sure to tell her exactly what you are after.

Thank you, Jack! (But what progress?)

Thank you, audioguy, but for dipole speakers I like to leave the front wall -- which is just drywall -- untreated.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Here is a 360 degree pan of the listening room. This should make it much easier to visualize the large opening to the kitchen on the left side of the room and the large opening to the equipment room (I love the idea of an equipment room!) on the right side of the room.

The glass box -- the sunroom-looking area -- is a new breakfast area behind and to the left of the listening position. This area will be excluded from the listening room by the curtain on the rear wall.

The rear wall itself, which currently is boarded up with plywood on the bottom and plastic tarp above the plywood, will be a big wall of glass.


https://vimeo.com/238887845

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

Interesting, microstrip. Thank you.

Today I am in the listening room painting swatches and trying to pick a shade of grey. I don't know if any of you have ever tried to analyse the color grey, but it actually is fiendishly perplexing.

Grey can lean towards blue or towards green or towards brown. It is very difficult to achieve a "true" grey. The same colour can look significantly different on a different wall in the same room based on how the light hits each wall in question.


View attachment 36553

If you are going to do the 50 Shades of Grey thing, live a little and mix it up.
Picking the right grey is frustrating, but when you hit it, its awesome!

 

[audioguy]

Perhaps those cavities should be filled up with sound absorbing material or some bass trap material. We will see . . .

I've been told more than once that you can't have too much bass absorption - and soffit traps are a perfect place. Bass "gathers" at any wall/floor, wall/wall or wall/ceiling intersection.

Ron: I'm sure somewhere in this thread is the answer, but are you building a new home --- or is this just a huge add-on/change to your existing home?

As for staying involved with Bonnie (vs letting her do her thing), I am totally on your side.

My first "professionally done" dedicated listening space was designed by the same guys that did Mike L's room. Two important points were active at that time (about 20 years ago): I knew just north of nothing about room acoustics AND Rives Audio didn't bother to ask me anything about my preferences. Now, three or four rooms later, I use a different source for my acoustic design (GIK Acoustics - Glenn Kuras) AND he did ask me lots of questions about my preferences. And as a result of lots of study in the field of room acoustics, I was able to intelligently interact with him on the subject. Just like there is no one speaker (or amp or cable ...... or woman) that everyone likes, there is also no one treated listening space that everyone likes.

As an FYI, I lived in Atlanta when I first met Glenn (he is located there as well). I was having a serious sonic issue in my room (upper midrange glare) that no matter what speaker I used, or where I put them, or what amp or what cable or what preamp (I changed them all), the glare was still there. It was so bad, that I quit using the room. So it HAD to be the room. But Rives absolutely refused to admit that was even a possibility and even when he came to Atlanta for a few years in a row (for audio shows), refused to come by my home to listen. I contacted Glenn, he came to my room and the first thing he said was: "It is Always the Room" --- hence my Avatar. In addition, I also had Adam Pelz there as well and he, too, recognized it was the room (took lots of measurements).

It was going to take lots more money to fix the issue, so I came up with a better solution .... sold the house, bought a new one and started over !!!

 

[PeterA]

Ron, do you have a floor plan of the spaces that you could upload to the thread. I found the panned video a bit confusing.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I've been told more than once that you can't have too much bass absorption - and soffit traps are a perfect place.

I can tell you that is absolutely not true.

and the last 13 years in my room is proof. I can get into the details, but briefly my room had, and I emphasize HAD, 15' x 10' built in bass traps on either side of the front of the room which I removed in 2010, to considerable benefit.

and my whole drop ceiling was a bass soffit trap, which in 2011 I mostly closed, and then 2 years ago finally closed all the way, which eliminated a 10db suckout at 30hz. now my room is pretty flat in the bass.....with assistance from active adjustable bass towers.

the only remaining bass traps are -4- built in 18" x 18" x 10' traps across the back wall.

so don't blindly (and it will be blindly) install bass traps willy-nilly. unless you are prepared to remove them after you live in the room for awhile.

to be fair to my room designer, he was clear that it is impossible to know ahead of time about the bass. there are simply too many structural variables to predict the result exactly. it takes real world tuning to get it right. and that is hopefully after you get to know your room and system in it......and.......you know where you are going. forget plug and play acoustics. that does not exist in the real world.

 

[audioguy]

I can tell you that is absolutely not true.

and the last 13 years in my room is proof. I can get into the details, but briefly my room had, and I emphasize HAD, 15' x 10' built in bass traps on either side of the front of the room which I removed in 2010, to considerable benefit.

and my whole drop ceiling was a bass soffit trap, which in 2011 I mostly closed, and then 2 years ago finally closed all the way, which eliminated a 10db suckout at 30hz. now my room is pretty flat in the bass.

the only remaining bass traps are -4- built in 1' x 18" x 10' across the back wall.

so don't blindly install bass traps willy-nilly. unless you are prepared to remove them after you live in the room for awhile.

to be fair to my room designer, he was clear that it is impossible to know ahead of time about the bass. there are simply too many structural variables to predict the result exactly. it takes real world tuning to get it right. and that is hopefully after you get to know your room and system in it. forget plug and play. that does not exist in the real world.

I never suggested "willy-nilly" install anything. In your case, clearly it was "too much of a good [or not so good] thing". In my rooms, I have at most used soffit traps in all 4 wall/ceiling intersections, corners traps (17" x 17") all four wall/wall corners, and on the back wall of this room, bass traps (but with diffusors fronting them). And with no EQ, the bass in my room of VERY flat - no suckouts, no negatives. And the RT60 times are exactly where they should be. I've never owned a room with too much bass absorption. And, by starting off where I know it works, I can always add (in my current room, that has not been necessary).

 

[microstrip]

Thank you, Mike, I appreciate it!

I actually think David's suggestion makes a lot of sense.

Thank you, Believe High Fidelity, but as Steve and Bob Vin will attest, Bonnie understands audiophile sensitivities.

I will do a mix. I am not blindly relinquishing decision-making to Bonnie. It is not "let me know when it is all completed."

No matter what I would put a carpet pad under the carpet which covers the entire floor of the listening room except for a seven foot strip which is going to remain wood and which is where the speakers and the amplifiers will be located. For the carpet pad I am sure Bonnie will recommend either her Vibramat or NoiseOut product.

No matter what I would install acoustic drapes in the rear third of the listening room covering the entire rear wall, and the opening to the equipment and back to the rear wall and the opening to the kitchen and back to the rear wall, in each case from the floor up to a height of nine feet from the floor. This will dampen reflections and provide absorption around the rear third of the room, and delineate visually a rectangular space. For this Bonnie will specify some thickness of her Lumitex product based on her acoustic measurements. Left to my own devices I would request only a thin layer of Lumitex.

No matter what I would put absorbers or diffusers at the first reflection points.

No matter what I would put towers of Tube Traps in the front corners of the room.

So, left to my own devices, this will be my starting point, but using Bonnie's products. After we do this, Bonnie can take a second round of measurements and see if she makes any further recommendations.

This starting point leaves the front two-thirds of the room untreated except for the first reflection points, and the bass traps in the front corners.

We have different sensitivities on these matters - IMHO one of the best points of having a renown and successful acoustician design our room is telling him "Please create me a room that does not need visible sound treatment and sounds great with my equipment".

And if I was going to used Bonnie services, I would tell her "use only acoustic products you trust, develop or have great experience with". I would surely ask questions, debate my preferences in sound quality and equipment, but I would not want to have my amateurish beliefs concerning acoustics spoiling her decisions. If by some reason, I was not happy with her proposals I would simply look for another acoustician.

As I am deep in one of those cyclical frenetic equipment choice periods, half of my listening space looks like an workshop. But I am dreaming about soon taking all unneeded equipment out, replacing the rug over the rug pad and moving the decoration in again!

I know it is me, but I can not imagine having a speaker in Mercedes Designo mocha black metallic close to cream Guilford tissue ...

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I never suggested "willy-nilly" install anything. In your case, clearly it was "too much of a good [or not so good] thing". In my rooms, I have at most used soffit traps in all 4 wall/ceiling intersections, corners traps (17" x 17") all four wall/wall corners, and on the back wall of this room, bass traps (but with diffusors fronting them). And with no EQ, the bass in my room of VERY flat - no suckouts, no negatives. And the RT60 times are exactly where they should be. I've never owned a room with too much bass absorption. And, by starting off where I know it works, I can always add (in my current room, that has not been necessary).

sorry if my tone was negative, not my intention. I did not intend to be critical.

this was just such a passionate subject and expensive lesson for me to learn.

 

[rockitman]

so don't blindly (and it will be blindly) install bass traps willy-nilly. unless you are prepared to remove them after you live in the room for awhile.

I concur !!!! Ethan sold me over 20 various absorption panels (ceiling, both front and rear of room).....It killed the room...deader than a door nail 5 years ago....my ears would pop walking into the room, lol. Now I use a total of two bass traps in the corners behind the speakers and playing with one thin panel or a primitive root diffuser behind my listening chair since the wall behind my head is 2 1/2 feet behind my head. It is very easy to overbuy absorption...IME.

 

[microstrip]

(...) to be fair to my room designer, he was clear that it is impossible to know ahead of time about the bass. there are simply too many structural variables to predict the result exactly. it takes real world tuning to get it right. and that is hopefully after you get to know your room and system in it......and.......you know where you are going. forget plug and play acoustics. that does not exist in the real world.

Mike,

How many audiophiles exist in the world that have speakers with two enormous bass towers that go down to 7 Hz?

IMHO the main problem with audiophile acoustics is that stereo speaker designers have such a freedom of choice on how to develop their speakers that no standard unique solution can apply to all cases and in the high-end most of the times each case is a different case. Also unfortunately most acousticians come from the professional side and want to impose their way of listening to audiophiles.

I really appreciated following your room and all the work carried during project and building since the days of Positive Feedback many years ago. But we must remember that Rives Audio people are mostly known for their inexpensive packages that probably represented good value for money - but we can not expect miracles! If people want extra quality services they must be prepared to spend significantly more.

And yes, I would love to read from JackD about these matters!

 

[Ron Resnick]

I've been told more than once that you can't have too much bass absorption - and soffit traps are a perfect place. Bass "gathers" at any wall/floor, wall/wall or wall/ceiling intersection.

Ron: I'm sure somewhere in this thread is the answer, but are you building a new home --- or is this just a huge add-on/change to your existing home?

As for staying involved with Bonnie (vs letting her do her thing), I am totally on your side.

My first "professionally done" dedicated listening space was designed by the same guys that did Mike L's room. Two important points were active at that time (about 20 years ago): I knew just north of nothing about room acoustics AND Rives Audio didn't bother to ask me anything about my preferences. Now, three or four rooms later, I use a different source for my acoustic design (GIK Acoustics - Glenn Kuras) AND he did ask me lots of questions about my preferences. And as a result of lots of study in the field of room acoustics, I was able to intelligently interact with him on the subject. Just like there is no one speaker (or amp or cable ...... or woman) that everyone likes, there is also no one treated listening space that everyone likes.

As an FYI, I lived in Atlanta when I first met Glenn (he is located there as well). I was having a serious sonic issue in my room (upper midrange glare) that no matter what speaker I used, or where I put them, or what amp or what cable or what preamp (I changed them all), the glare was still there. It was so bad, that I quit using the room. So it HAD to be the room. But Rives absolutely refused to admit that was even a possibility and even when he came to Atlanta for a few years in a row (for audio shows), refused to come by my home to listen. I contacted Glenn, he came to my room and the first thing he said was: "It is Always the Room" --- hence my Avatar. In addition, I also had Adam Pelz there as well and he, too, recognized it was the room (took lots of measurements).

It was going to take lots more money to fix the issue, so I came up with a better solution .... sold the house, bought a new one and started over !!!

Thank you for describing your experiences with acousticians.

I am not doing any new construction or addition. We are just fixing or improving some existing areas of the house. The listening room is just getting new electrical infrastructure, new carpet and new paint color.

 

[microstrip]

(...) so don't blindly (and it will be blindly) install bass traps willy-nilly. unless you are prepared to remove them after you live in the room for awhile. (...)

The excess or need of more bass traps can be diagnosed by measurements - but surely not by frequency response taken with the Iphone!

 

[microstrip]

I concur !!!! Ethan sold me over 20 various absorption panels (ceiling, both front and rear of room).....It killed the room...deader than a door nail 5 years ago....my ears would pop walking into the room, lol. Now I use a total of two bass traps in the corners behind the speakers and playing with one thin panel or a primitive root diffuser behind my listening chair since the wall behind my head is 2 1/2 feet behind my head. It is very easy to overbuy absorption...IME.

(...) Also unfortunately most acousticians come from the professional side and want to impose their way of listening to audiophiles. (...)

I was thinking about our our WBF debates with him on these matters a few years ago!