High end Munich 2017

[DaveyF]

Obviously there are no "perfect" speakers and having a high bar is fine but your blanket condemnation of horns is sadly misguided. I have heard many box speakers more colored than the better horns. Some even approach ribbon levels of low coloration. You paint with far too broad a brush.

I'm not just referencing coloration, I am also talking about the myriad other aspects that make up the total picture of sound reproduction and the reality of same in one's listening room. IME, horns have several issues that disqualify them for me...and sure I would not rule out that a horn could not be somehow modified to minimize or do away with these same issues. However, of all the horn based systems I have heard, and like I said before, I have heard a pretty good number of them, none of them would be of interest to me. Am I open to the possibility that a horn system could knock my socks off...well yes. Unfortunately, so far that just has never happened.

 

[Audiocrack]

Good point indeed Davey but my question was simple..... how could a system in one room several weeks earlier by all accounts be one of the best at Axpona but when the exact same gear is played in Munich it isn't. The room must be a factor

Maybe, maybe not. I got feedback from the Axpona show from a couple of guys who have been active in the audio world for many, many years. Some of them are audio professionals. Two of them I know pretty well and I learned through many years of contact that they have very good ears indeed and have established high audio standards for themselves. They thought the VS set up at Axpona 2017 sounded really poor indeed.

Btw, they did not like Doug's Tidal set up showing the Tidal Akira loudspekers at Axpona either. I never heard the VS but I know the Akira's are formidable loudspeakers. And I am sure quite a few Munich 2017 visitors were unimpressed by the Tidal La Assoluta set up as well. (And as you might know, I own the LA's that are in my view incredible transducers)

Show conditions are most of the time (extremely) difficult. Not only because of (i) the room acoustics but also due to (ii) power restraints, (iii) too little time to get really familiar with the show circumstances, (iv) near impossibility to set up a system in such away that all places in the room have good sound, etc., etc.

As long as members in a respectful way express their personal opinion - I or we did not like the sound of this or that set up at a certain show (at all) - what is wrong with that?

Of course the manufacturers involved prefer to hear good feedback, but they should be professionals and understand that there will always be persons that for one reason or another do not like their products. Cope with it! In the end show feedback as well as audio opinions are so personal.

 

[Al M.]

Show conditions are most of the time (extremely) difficult. Not only because of (i) the room acoustics but also due to (ii) power restrains, (iii) too little time to get really familiar with the show circumstances, (iv) near impossibility to set up a system in such away that all places in the room have good sound, etc., etc.

All those points are important indeed, and I think the highlighted one is often overlooked in the discussions. The BorderPatrol room is consistently praised at shows, and while they are really good at set-up, their low-powered amps may profit from being much less susceptible to power restraints than the set-ups of other manufacturers.

We had had a whole long debate at WBF about power at shows a few years ago. One proposal raised was having trucks outside delivering good power, just like it seems to be the case on Hollywood film sets. Seriously.

 

[Al M.]

If you see my postings in other forums, I made the very same comment about the kind of music being playing in most rooms. The music in general in Munich was not the best, and it was kinda hard to put requests in with so many people in the rooms.

Indeed, there is no excuse for boring music at shows. Why can't exhibitors play some exciting, vivid, dynamic, challenging music? Why always the same old boring female jazz vocals with minimal accompaniment? Or other examples of the same old audiophile standard fare? One other reason why the BorderPatrol room consistently fares well at shows is that they play exciting, dynamic music.

Note to exhibitors: if you choose inoffensive music to please everybody, you end up pleasing nobody.

Just one example: the last few days I was listening to Jeff Beck 'Lve at Ronnie Scott's'. Totally electrifying music. Why not play something like that? Or what are you afraid of, folks?

 

[caliaripaolo]

Yes, I am tough, for good reason.

I, just like so many others, am tired of the bitching and moaning by manufacturers/exhiitors about the difficulties of getting good sound, and their complaints when they get honest feedback that is less than satisfying to them.

I know that it's difficult to get a good sound at a show -- and i don't want to be in the shoes of the exhitors either -- , but that sound is what potential customers necessarily judge the exhibit by. Or should manufacturers circle flyers among the audience explaining how much effort they put into it, for perhaps a few tears of sympathy?

The world doesn't work that way folks. Get over it.

If you think you can't get good sound, don't exhibit. If you think you can good sound, and the result is less than satisfying, take the blame like a man, rather than complaining about unfavorable feedback or conditions.

Exhibitors: you think you are tired of hearing about bad sound in your room? No, it's the paying visitors of the show who are sick and tired of hearing bad sound, and who deserve better. Think about that for a moment.

Simple, straightforward and effective words. I couldn't agree with you more. Too many times we have heard systems that have been assembled together just because they are part of trade agreements.

 

[morricab]

Good point indeed Davey but my question was simple..... how could a system in one room several weeks earlier by all accounts be one of the best at Axpona but when the exact same gear is played in Munich it isn't. The room must be a factor

Do we have independent verification from trusted ears that heard the system at both shows?? If not, then whether or not it sounded better at Axpona is nothing more than hearsay. I heard it in Munich only. It was not the best but certainly not the worst. It was enjoyable but not as noteworthy as one would hope from lineup.

 

[microstrip]

Indeed, there is no excuse for boring music at shows. Why can't exhibitors play some exciting, vivid, dynamic, challenging music? Why always the same old boring female jazz vocals with minimal accompaniment? Or other examples of the same old audiophile standard fare? (...)

Al. M,

I can think about a few reasons 1. These female jazz vocals with minimal accompaniment are very well recorded music, that many audiophiles appreciate, not boring music. 2. It is easier touch audiences with simple, extremely well recorded and well reproduced music. I have found people that almost 30 years later still remember about SoundLab's because of Amanda McBroom and Lincoln Mayorga. 3. Excellent quality audiophile recordings become standards, people come to shows mainly to compare, not just for entertainment. 4. Contrary to popular belief, most audiophile recordings are very challenging. Unfortunately most people only get 70% of what is in them. 5. Audiophile recordings get reviews in audiophile magazines and sites, many people appreciate listening to what they have read about.

And most probably what many people consider exciting, vivid, dynamic, challenging music is for many others noisy, uninteresting or horrible music.

 

[microstrip]

(...)
Show conditions are most of the time (extremely) difficult. Not only because of (i) the room acoustics but also due to (ii) power restrains, (iii) too little time to get really familiar with the show circumstances, (iv) near impossibility to set up a system in such away that all places in the room have good sound, etc., etc.

As long as members in a respectful way express their personal opinion - I or we did not like the sound of this or that set up at a certain show (at all) - what is wrong with that? (...)

+1!

IMHO if people find something they like or dislike they should give us details why.

 

[853guy]

And finally, the most juvenile thing for someone in the industry do is to come to audio forums and belittle members. You have to take the high road because you have a business to run and must act professionally at all times.

Hello Amir,

That would be sage and profound advice had your legacy of conduct on this and other forums not been belittling members whose world-view is different to yours by intimating their hearing is deficient simply because they refuse to jump through your ABX hoops to reinforce your own world-view in which you mistake absence of evidence for evidence of absence. Not to mention the lack of professionalism you displayed during your many, many attempts to undermine the credibility of the Blu-Ray platform during your tenure at Microsoft. While I appreciate the sentiment of your comment, the thousands of posts that stand as an online testament to conduct that undermines the credibility of that same sentiment seem to be only accumulating, and not in your favour.

853guy

 

[853guy]

Yes, I am tough, for good reason.

I, just like so many others, am tired of the bitching and moaning by manufacturers/exhiitors about the difficulties of getting good sound, and their complaints when they get honest feedback that is less than satisfying to them.

I know that it's difficult to get a good sound at a show -- and i don't want to be in the shoes of the exhitors either -- , but that sound is what potential customers necessarily judge the exhibit by. Or should manufacturers circle flyers among the audience explaining how much effort they put into it, for perhaps a few tears of sympathy?

The world doesn't work that way folks. Get over it.

If you think you can't get good sound, don't exhibit. If you think you can good sound, and the result is less than satisfying, take the blame like a man, rather than complaining about unfavorable feedback or conditions.

Exhibitors: you think you are tired of hearing about bad sound in your room? No, it's the paying visitors of the show who are sick and tired of hearing bad sound, and who deserve better. Think about that for a moment.

Hi Al,

I’m sorry, but my thinking is different again.

Given you felt the internet owed you coverage that reflected your own preferences, and now, make assumptions about the “paying visitors” who “deserve better”, let me provide an alternative perspective from someone who actually got on a plane to attend the show/rooms we’re discussing.

I paid 20 € for a two-day pass to Munich. With flights from continental Europe, two meals, several coffees and many bottles of sparkling water, I’d say the cumulative price of admission for me was less than 500 €.

That’s significantly less - and by orders of magnitude - than the cost of the booth alone, not including the costs associated with freighting/shipping, flights, accommodation, meals, and time lost to travel that ever single manufacturer would have accumulated over those four days.

Me? I saw a lot of manufacturers who had taken a lot of time, effort and money to create a presence at Munich that will be easily negated by online comments from consumers who did not make the effort to attend, simply because it costs them nothing to post relative to actually going, allowing them to cast aspersions from afar in which those same comments are amplified by an internet culture in which an online comment is perceived as being more “true” than anything in real life.

I consider the small but significant expenditure of attending the show to pale in comparison to what the many manufacturers here needed to shell out for results that are often much less than intended - however, actually attending the show and accumulating first-hand experience I consider completely superior to someone who did not attend, and then feels their interests (show coverage/“good” sound for "potential customers") are therefore under-represented.

Your own system thread and the many posts you’ve made in regard to it stand as a real-world record of the time, effort and energy of what it takes to make a room “work”. Were your suddenly asked to pack up your system, transport it and set it up in a room you were unfamiliar with, would you be confident you could recreate anything close to what you currently achieve in your own room, and in less than day? Think about that for a moment.

Be well, Al,

853guy

P.S. As to the "bitching and moaning"...? How many posts is it now you've made apropos a show you did not attend? If you really feel your interests are under-represented, be a "paying visitor" next time and have some skin in the game.

 

[853guy]

Hey Al,

Where did we say we had room issues? All I said was thanks to Alex for a crappy show report coming from a dealer of Evolution Acoustics and YG. His history has shown that he has talked down on VSA and I took it a little personal. Nothing more, nothing less.

Hello Leif,

We’ve not met, but I was in attendance for two days, and stopped by your room several times. I actually looked out for name badges and yours in particular, but staring at someone’s belly for an extended period of time tends to be uncomfortable for both the stare-er and the stare-ee.

I wrote a little report in which I mentioned my favourite rooms, but limited my comments to those and only those rooms. Personally, given that I try to avoid making generalisations in cases where the nonlinearity of variables can only ever lead to an averaging of opinion that's less informational in value, there were many, many rooms I didn’t comment on because making assumptions of why a room had less-than-optimal sound serves no purpose except to confirm what we already know - shows are a challenge.

However, if you are interested in feedback, I’d be happy to provide mine, from someone with no vested interest, bound to their limited preferences and perception, for whatever that might be worth to you.

Best,

853guy

 

[Al M.]

Al. M,

I can think about a few reasons 1. These female jazz vocals with minimal accompaniment are very well recorded music, that many audiophiles appreciate, not boring music. 2. It is easier touch audiences with simple, extremely well recorded and well reproduced music. I have found people that almost 30 years later still remember about SoundLab's because of Amanda McBroom and Lincoln Mayorga. 3. Excellent quality audiophile recordings become standards, people come to shows mainly to compare, not just for entertainment. 4. Contrary to popular belief, most audiophile recordings are very challenging. Unfortunately most people only get 70% of what is in them. 5. Audiophile recordings get reviews in audiophile magazines and sites, many people appreciate listening to what they have read about.

And most probably what many people consider exciting, vivid, dynamic, challenging music is for many others noisy, uninteresting or horrible music.

And in the end, everyone gets bored, and nobody is happy. Just look at the constant complaints about music at shows.

Or to quote (from memory, some words may not be precise) Jason Stoddard from the wildly successful Schiit Audio about business philosophy:

"Don't try to make everybody like you. It won't happen. Try to get some people to love you."

That, by the way, is also the approach by Spectral which appears to irritate many people.

1. They insist you have to buy the associated Spectral/MIT cables -- for sound technical reasons, born from a radical engineering approach.
2. They insist you have to use their pre-amps for their amps.

It works. Systems with their amps can sound great, some people love them, and they have been successful for decades now.

_________

PS: I am sympathetic to your reasoning, Micro. It is logical and well thought-out. Unfortunately though, that's not how it works. People get bored and irritated by all the inoffensive music that strives to please everyone.

 

[morricab]

And in the end, everyone gets bored, and nobody is happy. Just look at the constant complaints about music at shows.

Or to quote (from memory, some words may not be precise) Jason Stoddard from the wildly successful Schiit Audio about business philosophy:

"Don't try to make everybody like you. It won't happen. Try to get some people to love you."

That, by the way, is also the approach by Spectral which appears to irritate many people.

1. They insist you have to buy the associated Spectral/MIT cables -- for sound technical reasons, born from a radical engineering approach.
2. They insist you have to use their pre-amps for their amps.

It works. Systems with their amps can sound great, some people love them, and they have been successful for decades now.

_________

PS: I am sympathetic to your reasoning, Micro. It is logical and well thought-out. Unfortunately though, that's not how it works. People get bored and irritated by all the inoffensive music that strives to please everyone.

What in your infinite wisdom is "good" music for high end shows? Have you ever done a show? Do you know which songs keep a crowd in the room and which ones drive them out? I can tell you it is not always what you like.

 

[morricab]

Hi Al,

I’m sorry, but my thinking is different again.

Given you felt the internet owed you coverage that reflected your own preferences, and now, make assumptions about the “paying visitors” who “deserve better”, let me provide an alternative perspective from someone who actually got on a plane to attend the show/rooms we’re discussing.

I paid 20 € for a two-day pass to Munich. With flights from continental Europe, two meals, several coffees and many bottles of sparkling water, I’d say the cumulative price of admission for me was less than 500 €.

That’s significantly less - and by orders of magnitude - than the cost of the booth alone, not including the costs associated with freighting/shipping, flights, accommodation, meals, and time lost to travel that ever single manufacturer would have accumulated over those four days.

Me? I saw a lot of manufacturers who had taken a lot of time, effort and money to create a presence at Munich that will be easily negated by online comments from consumers who did not make the effort to attend, simply because it costs them nothing to post relative to actually going, allowing them to cast aspersions from afar in which those same comments are amplified by an internet culture in which an online comment is perceived as being more “true” than anything in real life.

I consider the small but significant expenditure of attending the show to pale in comparison to what the many manufacturers here needed to shell out for results that are often much less than intended - however, actually attending the show and accumulating first-hand experience I consider completely superior to someone who did not attend, and then feels their interests (show coverage/“good” sound for "potential customers") are therefore under-represented.

Your own system thread and the many posts you’ve made in regard to it stand as a real-world record of the time, effort and energy of what it takes to make a room “work”. Were your suddenly asked to pack up your system, transport it and set it up in a room you were unfamiliar with, would you be confident you could recreate anything close to what you currently achieve in your own room, and in less than day? Think about that for a moment.

Be well, Al,

853guy

P.S. As to the "bitching and moaning"...? How many posts is it now you've made apropos a show you did not attend? If you really feel your interests are under-represented, be a "paying visitor" next time and have some skin in the game.

I was going comment but you have nailed it.

 

[bonzo75]

And in the end, everyone gets bored, and nobody is happy. Just look at the constant complaints about music at shows.

Or to quote (from memory, some words may not be precise) Jason Stoddard from the wildly successful Schiit Audio about business philosophy:

"Don't try to make everybody like you. It won't happen. Try to get some people to love you."

That, by the way, is also the approach by Spectral which appears to irritate many people.

1. They insist you have to buy the associated Spectral/MIT cables -- for sound technical reasons, born from a radical engineering approach.
2. They insist you have to use their pre-amps for their amps.

It works. Systems with their amps can sound great, some people love them, and they have been successful for decades now.

_________

PS: I am sympathetic to your reasoning, Micro. It is logical and well thought-out. Unfortunately though, that's not how it works. People get bored and irritated by all the inoffensive music that strives to please everyone.

I think at a show a manufacturer should play what he thinks makes his system sound good and those interested in serious evaluation should carry their own software or seek them out separately. I carried LPs, and at the end of two days my back was hurting from the weight of carrying them around.

 

[bonzo75]

Hi Al,

I’m sorry, but my thinking is different again.

Given you felt the internet owed you coverage that reflected your own preferences, and now, make assumptions about the “paying visitors” who “deserve better”, let me provide an alternative perspective from someone who actually got on a plane to attend the show/rooms we’re discussing.

I paid 20 € for a two-day pass to Munich. With flights from continental Europe, two meals, several coffees and many bottles of sparkling water, I’d say the cumulative price of admission for me was less than 500 €.

That’s significantly less - and by orders of magnitude - than the cost of the booth alone, not including the costs associated with freighting/shipping, flights, accommodation, meals, and time lost to travel that ever single manufacturer would have accumulated over those four days.

Me? I saw a lot of manufacturers who had taken a lot of time, effort and money to create a presence at Munich that will be easily negated by online comments from consumers who did not make the effort to attend, simply because it costs them nothing to post relative to actually going, allowing them to cast aspersions from afar in which those same comments are amplified by an internet culture in which an online comment is perceived as being more “true” than anything in real life.

I consider the small but significant expenditure of attending the show to pale in comparison to what the many manufacturers here needed to shell out for results that are often much less than intended - however, actually attending the show and accumulating first-hand experience I consider completely superior to someone who did not attend, and then feels their interests (show coverage/“good” sound for "potential customers") are therefore under-represented.

Your own system thread and the many posts you’ve made in regard to it stand as a real-world record of the time, effort and energy of what it takes to make a room “work”. Were your suddenly asked to pack up your system, transport it and set it up in a room you were unfamiliar with, would you be confident you could recreate anything close to what you currently achieve in your own room, and in less than day? Think about that for a moment.

Be well, Al,

853guy

P.S. As to the "bitching and moaning"...? How many posts is it now you've made apropos a show you did not attend? If you really feel your interests are under-represented, be a "paying visitor" next time and have some skin in the game.

While I partly agree, no one should expect that just because they packed up, transported, and put together a system they should get only positive reviews. I have still not heard a displayer say guys, I have my system at Munich, unfortunately we do have a challenging room, but feel free to check out. Everyone is always like we have set up a room so it is obviously going to get glowing reviews, which will go through that same internet amplification process you mentioned above, and will fetch us a lot of sales at the ridiculous prices we are advertising at, because, as Munich will prove, we are the best.

 

[Steve Williams]

Hi Al,

I’m sorry, but my thinking is different again.

Given you felt the internet owed you coverage that reflected your own preferences, and now, make assumptions about the “paying visitors” who “deserve better”, let me provide an alternative perspective from someone who actually got on a plane to attend the show/rooms we’re discussing.

I paid 20 € for a two-day pass to Munich. With flights from continental Europe, two meals, several coffees and many bottles of sparkling water, I’d say the cumulative price of admission for me was less than 500 €.

That’s significantly less - and by orders of magnitude - than the cost of the booth alone, not including the costs associated with freighting/shipping, flights, accommodation, meals, and time lost to travel that ever single manufacturer would have accumulated over those four days.

Me? I saw a lot of manufacturers who had taken a lot of time, effort and money to create a presence at Munich that will be easily negated by online comments from consumers who did not make the effort to attend, simply because it costs them nothing to post relative to actually going, allowing them to cast aspersions from afar in which those same comments are amplified by an internet culture in which an online comment is perceived as being more “true” than anything in real life.

I consider the small but significant expenditure of attending the show to pale in comparison to what the many manufacturers here needed to shell out for results that are often much less than intended - however, actually attending the show and accumulating first-hand experience I consider completely superior to someone who did not attend, and then feels their interests (show coverage/“good” sound for "potential customers") are therefore under-represented.

Your own system thread and the many posts you’ve made in regard to it stand as a real-world record of the time, effort and energy of what it takes to make a room “work”. Were your suddenly asked to pack up your system, transport it and set it up in a room you were unfamiliar with, would you be confident you could recreate anything close to what you currently achieve in your own room, and in less than day? Think about that for a moment.

Be well, Al,

853guy

P.S. As to the "bitching and moaning"...? How many posts is it now you've made apropos a show you did not attend? If you really feel your interests are under-represented, be a "paying visitor" next time and have some skin in the game.

wise words indeed and as always IMO


wouldn't we all somewhat agree that show condition set up in a limited amount of time can be a huge challenge for any and all manufacturers who have rooms. Sometimes you can hit a home run and others you can strike out

 

[microstrip]

I think at a show a manufacturer should play what he thinks makes his system sound good and those interested in serious evaluation should carry their own software or seek them out separately. I carried LPs, and at the end of two days my back was hurting from the weight of carrying them around.

Exactly. I was once with a known UK distributor who was preparing the room for a show, and an important part of the set-up was selecting recordings.

How many LP's did you carry?

 

[microstrip]

(...) PS: I am sympathetic to your reasoning, Micro. It is logical and well thought-out. Unfortunately though, that's not how it works. People get bored and irritated by all the inoffensive music that strives to please everyone.

Perhaps our divergence is what you call "inoffensive music". Can you give me a few examples?

I have no problem to admit I dislike much of the music that is usually used at shows. But 90% (perhaps 95%) of the people going to shows would find my musical selections terribly boring!

 

[bonzo75]

Exactly. I was once with a known UK distributor who was preparing the room for a show, and an important part of the set-up was selecting recordings.

How many LP's did you carry?

Just 4, had some CDs but having it on the back 2 days is a lot.