From Greg Weaver at PFO
http://positive-feedback.com/show-r...ney-von-schweikert-audio-ultra-11-experience/
and Jonathan Valin's report here
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/axpona-2017-loudspeakers-20k-and-up/
High end Munich 2017
- Thread starter flyer
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From Greg Weaver at PFO
http://positive-feedback.com/show-r...ney-von-schweikert-audio-ultra-11-experience/
and Jonathan Valin's report here
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/axpona-2017-loudspeakers-20k-and-up/
That wasn't the context of my comment.
I said "I saw a lot of manufacturers who had taken a lot of time, effort and money to create a presence at Munich that will be easily negated by online comments from consumers who did not make the effort to attend, simply because it costs them nothing to post relative to actually going, allowing them to cast aspersions from afar in which those same comments are amplified by an internet culture in which an online comment is perceived as being more “true” than anything in real life."
853guy
Absolutely agree, Amir's behaviour & technical misinformation disseminated on AVS & other forums regarding Blu-ray is notorious & stands as testament to his personality & pseudo-righteousness expressed in his post about Leif.
When Leif states that you absolutely did not discuss with him the room acoustics, the evidence falls strongly in his favour & against your claims based on your history.
So what if your expenses are much less than those of the manufacturer? You are only one visitor, each manufacturer's room sees many visitors -- that's what the show is for. Sorry, I fail to see any point in your argument here.
True. People who didn't attend the show shouldn't comment on the sound, unless it's something trivial like putting way too big speakers in a way too small room. As you will have noted I also did not comment on the sound of the Von Schweikert room in Munich, and I emphasized that I could not do so.
My further comments were more general observations on less than good sound at shows -- as I also experienced at AXPONA in Chicago, a show that I did attend, in some rooms. If my comments were misconstrued as a specific attack on the sound in that room in Munich then people haven't really paid attention to what I said. I did specifically address the whining of one manufacturer about "appreciation of the efforts" and "giving the exhibitor a break", but that is an attack on attitude, not on a specific sound that I cannot comment on.
And I did, if you bothered to carefully read my previous comments. Yes, you are correct, 853guy, that you cannot automatically expect a great sound at a show under sub-optimal circumstances. However, as long as the industry cannot agree on a better model than shows in sub-optimal venues and with hasty set-up, manufacturers have no right to complain when someone finds the sound bad. You and I may know that you should appreciate when there is good sound in a room, but withhold judgment when there isn't, but that is not how things generally work. Visitors expect good sound, period.
Exhibitors, you need to stop making excuses. And no, nobody will shed a tear for you in "appreciation of your efforts" and "give you a break". That's not how it works. When you get negative comments, suck it up. Life is tough. Get over it.
This thread has really dwindled down to Peter B territory - who is the chaff this time?
I think manufacturers need to take the high road.
I think manufacturers need to take the high road.
+1....some of the commentary in this thread...Dale Carnegie "first create an eager want"...it ain't.
The last audio show I attended was in NYC about five years ago. I took a handful of my own LPs. I was lucky enough to play them in a few rooms. In two cases, members of the audience took out their iPhones and photographed the covers so that they could look for the LPs on Ebay. In another case, the room exhibitor contacted me a couple days later for the specifics of one of my records. He wanted to use it in future shows. I must say, it highlighted the strengths of his system and pleased the audience. He told me he waited for all day to see if I would return with that LP. Some exhibitors are less accommodating.
I respect the effort that it must take to exhibit one's products in such an environment. It can not be easy.
I was only addressing my Mocha Black XLF. Smaller Wilson's - up to the Sasha - in color look great and integrate perfectly in many decors. A good friend of mine got my old Wilson /Puppy 7 Ferrari Red and can not change speakers anymore as his wife loves them and considers they are now part of the room decoration. My current main problem with Wilson speakers aspect is the stainless steel speaker screws - they should be black to disappear!
When listening I like a speaker that does not invade my listening space, or at less does not call attention on it. Surely it was not the case of the great looking red speakers.Soundlab A1's in black are so uniform and boring that you manage to forget about them!
Brass screws sound better... try it!
Industrial design is super-important for speakers in a living room and can easily disqualify a potential candidate in some situations. There are some very very poor industrial designs out there, I can't understand how the mfg'ers get away with it.
I wholeheartedly agree. Love finding new music and I have been very impressed with some of the selections brought to my room for playback.
As some of you may know, I abstain from commenting in online forums for a number of reasons. This decision is based on decades of experience.
That said, I’d like to make an exception here and add my own perspective to this discussion.
First off, my thanks goes out to anyone attempting to steer this discussion in a constructive and open minded way but especially to Joe Lavrencik for attempting to share his extensive and professional perspective on the challenges of being an exhibitor at shows as well as his personal confidence in what my partner Leif and I are attempting to achieve with VSA.
As anyone who has extensive experience with exhibiting knows, NO show is perfect. Even when you assemble the system in advance (which due to logistics and expense is far less often than many may realize), there are still numerous variables to getting good sound. From my experience, the sound has never been as good and certainly not better than a purpose built dedicated soundroom with a synergized system specifically assembled to take advantage of those room dimensions. So from my experience, show performance is ALWAYS a fraction of ideal. What exhibitors attempt in the 24 or 48 hours setup time before a show is to achieve as close to 100% as possible and often fall short by double digits.
The key word here is EXPERIENCE.
What I’m reading in this thread from a vocal minority of “experts” is their opinions on what manufactures in general should do at shows and how in turn, their products should be perceived by audiences. This “Monday morning quarterbacking” is not exclusive to our hobby as my idiom illustrates.
So while everyone is entitled to an opinion, I’m sure no one here would dispute that some opinions are far less valuable than others depending on the situation
As for VSA’s performance at both AXPONA and Munich, I’m very good with it. And that’s after spending tens of thousands of our dollars on each show. In fact, I’m still blown away by the feedback from people whose opinions I hold in high regard. And they shared it publicly for all to benefit from. And there will be more to come from Munich I’m sure.
So if VSA products or our room’s performance at shows is not your “cup of tea,” I’m very OK with that too. Some people like Rocky Road ice cream so as you can see, there’s no accounting for taste
We don’t work to satisfy our detractors; only ourselves and the people who appreciate what we do and that philosophy has propelled us to our current position in the marketplace after 42 years of effort. As I said, I’m very satisfied with how we’re doing and thanks for your interest.
That said, I’d like to make an exception here and add my own perspective to this discussion.
First off, my thanks goes out to anyone attempting to steer this discussion in a constructive and open minded way but especially to Joe Lavrencik for attempting to share his extensive and professional perspective on the challenges of being an exhibitor at shows as well as his personal confidence in what my partner Leif and I are attempting to achieve with VSA.
As anyone who has extensive experience with exhibiting knows, NO show is perfect. Even when you assemble the system in advance (which due to logistics and expense is far less often than many may realize), there are still numerous variables to getting good sound. From my experience, the sound has never been as good and certainly not better than a purpose built dedicated soundroom with a synergized system specifically assembled to take advantage of those room dimensions. So from my experience, show performance is ALWAYS a fraction of ideal. What exhibitors attempt in the 24 or 48 hours setup time before a show is to achieve as close to 100% as possible and often fall short by double digits.
The key word here is EXPERIENCE.
What I’m reading in this thread from a vocal minority of “experts” is their opinions on what manufactures in general should do at shows and how in turn, their products should be perceived by audiences. This “Monday morning quarterbacking” is not exclusive to our hobby as my idiom illustrates.
So while everyone is entitled to an opinion, I’m sure no one here would dispute that some opinions are far less valuable than others depending on the situation
As for VSA’s performance at both AXPONA and Munich, I’m very good with it. And that’s after spending tens of thousands of our dollars on each show. In fact, I’m still blown away by the feedback from people whose opinions I hold in high regard. And they shared it publicly for all to benefit from. And there will be more to come from Munich I’m sure.
So if VSA products or our room’s performance at shows is not your “cup of tea,” I’m very OK with that too. Some people like Rocky Road ice cream so as you can see, there’s no accounting for taste
We don’t work to satisfy our detractors; only ourselves and the people who appreciate what we do and that philosophy has propelled us to our current position in the marketplace after 42 years of effort. As I said, I’m very satisfied with how we’re doing and thanks for your interest.
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Thanks Damon, I appreciate your feedback.
As to the above: Of course. Nobody has disputed that. That is why, as I have said a few times now on this thread, I am happy when the sound is good, but withhold judgement when in my view the sound is not so good. But you cannot expect this from all attendees of a show.
I reported on a room at AXPONA that particularly impressed me, which in my view had truly great sound. Yet I also pointed out the shortcomings of the sound, some of which were clearly traceable to room constraints, some probably not. So yes, even in that case the sound was not as good as it could have been in a dedicated home set-up, for example, and I was keenly aware of that. The exhibitors in that room appreciated my feedback without reservations, by the way.
But neither of these guys heard the same system at Munich, right? THat is what i meant, one trusted guy (that doesn't mean JV to me at least) who was at both shows and heard the same system both places.
As a reviewer I am often allowed to make requests...this year though I didn't bring my music...big mistake. In the past though I would bring a really great recording of Britten Violin Concerto with Maxim Vengerov on violin and conducted by Rostropovich on EMI. Excellent recording for both small scale solo violin (there is a pretty long cadenza) and large scale dynamics. Very transparent as well. I was often asked what it was so they could demo it later.
This year's Munich High End was particular challenging for us in the Aequo Audio / Audiopax / Sound Galleries Blue Moon room. With thinner walls than in the past, and a central location in Halle 3, we had an ambient noise level in our cabin of no less than 65 dB !!
Luckily for us we were showcasing for the first time, active anti-vibration platforms and active ground control blocks which helped transform blah sound due to dirty power and vibrations from people walking around and the building site across the street to captivating refinement which the speakers, amps and DAC can and did deliver
Here is Michael Lavorgna's report on Audiostream https://www.audiostream.com/content/sound-galleries-experience#comment-516726
The Sound Galleries collective continues to impress !
Luckily for us we were showcasing for the first time, active anti-vibration platforms and active ground control blocks which helped transform blah sound due to dirty power and vibrations from people walking around and the building site across the street to captivating refinement which the speakers, amps and DAC can and did deliver
Here is Michael Lavorgna's report on Audiostream https://www.audiostream.com/content/sound-galleries-experience#comment-516726
The Sound Galleries collective continues to impress !
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Risk versus reward. I temper my expectations based on my investment. For 20 € (the price of admission) I don’t expect much. For 20,000 € (the price of a manufacturer’s exhibit) my expectations would be very different. Considering how little risk I took, I can say, as I did in my show report, that my expectations were not only rewarded but exceeded. Given what we know about the problematicism of show conditions, and given the relatively tiny value of the investment I paid in admission, which do you think is more logical: To raise one’s expectations, or lower them?
I get that you believe “paying visitors (…) deserve better”. Me? I don’t think I “deserve” anything. My hope was that the money I spent would be returned to me in enjoyment and it was. But “deserve better”? Honestly, I’m just very grateful I was permitted the opportunity and wander the halls and enjoy the rooms for whatever it was they were able to offer. “Deserve” is one of those words that speaks of entitlement, and given the world these days, I try to be cautious about what I feel I “deserve” because I know that the quality of life I enjoy is propped up by systemic inequality of which I am merely a benefactor.
So let me ask you, as an individual who didn’t attend, do you still think you “deserve better” in terms of reward, from a risk/investment you never made?
And actually, visitors is not just what the show is for. It’s for dealers and distributors and potential dealers and distributors as well (1). Aesthetix’s Jim White said the reason they go to the show is because they get to have face time with their European dealer and distributor network, which I’d hazard a guess provides far more long-term benefit than appeasing the sensibilities of one or two audiophiles who think the show should be all about them.
Like I said, I prefer not to make generalisations in cases where the non-linearity of the variables (2) is greater than my ability to control them, because I can only ever make broad-based assumptions, and by doing so, generate observations of lesser and lesser value. A show like Munich is full of non-linear variables, all of which are outside my control. Therefore, not only do I temper my expectations relative to the level of admission, I try to only make comments contextualised to that particular room and my perception of it and avoid the temptation to generalise beyond it. This is a thread about Munich. The comments that have the most utility value for me are from those who attended the show. And despite attending the show in Munich and many hi-fi shows prior, I try to avoid then extrapolating my experience toward shows I have not attended.
And unlike you (who did not attend), I did appreciate the efforts of every single manufacturer in having some skin in the game and showing their wares in conditions that most would agree are sub-optimal. Asking for the bar to be raised without having skin in the game would be obviating myself of the responsibility for my own well-being, and I personally prefer not to expect someone else to take responsibility for my happiness by asking them to increase their risk whilst mitigating my own.
I did read your previous comments. But I struggle to comprehend that although you acknowledge the problematic nature of shows and their sub-optimal conditions, you still feel manufacturers have “no right to complain”, despite acknowledging the very variables that most often contribute to their rooms sounding bad?
Ah, “the industry”. So easy to say, so amorphous, so non-specific and lacking in personal responsibility. If only “they” would do something. If only “they” would raise the bar. If only “they” took my needs and wants more seriously. C’mon, we’re all grown ups, right? Like I say, I prefer to consider myself as part of the solution (attending the show and commenting positively on the rooms that I liked) rather than be part of the problem in which I act in a manner that lessens my personal responsibility and creates a dichotomy of “me” and “them”.
Visitors expect good sound, period? No, Al, you “expect good sound, period”. I do not. Like I say, I temper my expectations in situations where the variables are non-linear and outside my control. I take whatever I get and make the most of it (3). The weird thing about all this? I went, and despite the risk associated with an experience in which the non-linearity of the variables were completely outside my control, came away with a lot of really positive experiences. You? You’ve risked nothing, and despite not being subject to the non-linearity of Munich's show conditions you are convinced must be sub-optimal, sound like you had a miserable time regardless.
I don't expect any of this to change your mind. That's not the purpose of my post. I offer it because I learned more by going to Munich than not going. If you attend next year, you may find the same thing happens for you.
Best,
853guy
(1) I saw quite a few smaller manufacturers with signs saying they were looking for dealers and distributors throughout Europe.
(2) Like sticking individual components into a completely unfamiliar room with associated components that are also unfamiliar, leading to a non-linear, asymmetrical result.
(3) Like who mixes and masters the albums I buy, and how they do it.
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853, some really good points
With the state of the world, a raging cynicism only exacerbated by everyone having a soapbox on social media, less and less sympathy and proportionality, I'm kinda siding w yr viewpoint
Other than being stressed out w my mega move and construction of new room and not having the time and money to visit this yr, I actively chose not to attend because I felt so many rooms last yr sounded less than ideal and had poor/repetitive choice of music
But 853 has cogently argued, and slowly convinced me, that my holier than thou attitude is much too harsh, and I'd be better off cutting the exhibitors some slack
Maybe I'll reattend next yr and go into rooms w a more inclusive, understanding frame of mind, and realise that so much has to go right for everyone to be happy
The move from my old room is illustrative of this
I loved the sound despite being aware of a fair number of shortcomings, but had some pretty brutal dismissals of my sound and esp my room
I can't tell you what a blow to my essential manliness this was, and seriously I took criticism really badly
With a fortune in funds and two lifetimes of stress sorting my room, I now have the stellar sound I would have begged, borrowed or stolen for, and I have so much more perspective on things
So 853, agreed, let's not jump on exhibitors who've struggled to get a great sound, and at least be open to trying to glean what they're trying to communicate
A failure trying can be informative too
With the state of the world, a raging cynicism only exacerbated by everyone having a soapbox on social media, less and less sympathy and proportionality, I'm kinda siding w yr viewpoint
Other than being stressed out w my mega move and construction of new room and not having the time and money to visit this yr, I actively chose not to attend because I felt so many rooms last yr sounded less than ideal and had poor/repetitive choice of music
But 853 has cogently argued, and slowly convinced me, that my holier than thou attitude is much too harsh, and I'd be better off cutting the exhibitors some slack
Maybe I'll reattend next yr and go into rooms w a more inclusive, understanding frame of mind, and realise that so much has to go right for everyone to be happy
The move from my old room is illustrative of this
I loved the sound despite being aware of a fair number of shortcomings, but had some pretty brutal dismissals of my sound and esp my room
I can't tell you what a blow to my essential manliness this was, and seriously I took criticism really badly
With a fortune in funds and two lifetimes of stress sorting my room, I now have the stellar sound I would have begged, borrowed or stolen for, and I have so much more perspective on things
So 853, agreed, let's not jump on exhibitors who've struggled to get a great sound, and at least be open to trying to glean what they're trying to communicate
A failure trying can be informative too
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