High end Munich 2017

[joelavrencik]

Al M says.........



You're tough Al. Do you honestly believe that a manufacturer doesn't think he can get good sound. As Joe says all the rooms there were filled with slap echoes and other reflections. It's difficult for me to fathom that the room which was considered by most to be the Best In Show at Axpona only a few weeks ago was said to be underwhelming last week in Munich.

There it is,Steve. Bravo! Nicely said.

 

[Al M.]

Oh Boy……….. ? this is really disturbing. But, on the brighter side, you were right at the outset. You didn’t hear it and have you have no relevant opinion. For your further consideration, your sophomoric effort to conflate results with the difficulty of the first year effort, the thematic point of the post, is tired and jejune. My point remains.

That is an odd reply, to which I don't feel the need to respond.

 

[amirm]

Oh Boy……….. ? this is really disturbing. But, on the brighter side, you were right at the outset. You didn’t hear it and have you have no relevant opinion. For your further consideration, your sophomoric effort to conflate results with the difficulty of the first year effort, the thematic point of the post, is tired and jejune. My point remains.

I *was* at AXPONA 2017 with similar system from VSA. I was not impressed with their efforts there. I was told by Leif that I was the only one with such feedback or something to that regard. And that I too had an axe to grind (even though I had praised them at previous show).

As to your points, every manufacturer is faced with similar situation at shows. It is not like VSA was given an especially bad room. Indeed it was the opposite at AXPONA where they had a massive room compared to the typical hotel rooms. It is their jobs, despite any obstacles, to understand room acoustics, and appropriate music to impress folks. If they miss that for some attendees, they should have a voice on forums to express that. Having you, leif and now Steve going after members is improper. Very improper. It smells of protection of companies at the expense of consumers/membership.

And finally, the most juvenile thing for someone in the industry do is to come to audio forums and belittle members. You have to take the high road because you have a business to run and must act professionally at all times.

 

[joelavrencik]

That is an odd reply, to which I don't feel the need to respond.

On second thought, I apologize. I didn’t realize you have an illness of distorted perception. Please accept my heartfelt apology.

 

[Steve Williams]

I *was* at AXPONA 2017 with similar system from VSA. I was not impressed with their efforts there. I was told by Leif that I was the only one with such feedback or something to that regard. And that I too had an axe to grind (even though I had praised them at previous show).

As to your points, every manufacturer is faced with similar situation at shows. It is not like VSA was given an especially bad room. Indeed it was the opposite at AXPONA where they had a massive room compared to the typical hotel rooms. It is their jobs, despite any obstacles, to understand room acoustics, and appropriate music to impress folks. If they miss that for some attendees, they should have a voice on forums to express that. Having you, leif and now Steve going after members is improper. Very improper. It smells of protection of companies at the expense of consumers/membership.

And finally, the most juvenile thing for someone in the industry do is to come to audio forums and belittle members. You have to take the high road because you have a business to run and must act professionally at all times.

You're somewhat blinded as usual. I was stating my opinion but I guess I'm not entitled to one.I merely said Al was tough with my reason why!! For the record it was you at Axpona who commented that the VSA room had the speakers on the wrong wall when in reality they were in a square room. As for protection of companies I say you're barking up the wrong tree. Finally from what I recall reading the room acoustics at Axpona were designed by Art Noxon

 

[Al M.]

Al M says.........



You're tough Al. Do you honestly believe that a manufacturer doesn't think he can get good sound. As Joe says all the rooms there were filled with slap echoes and other reflections. It's difficult for me to fathom that the room which was considered by most to be the Best In Show at Axpona only a few weeks ago was said to be underwhelming last week in Munich.

Yes, I am tough, for good reason.

I, just like so many others, am tired of the bitching and moaning by manufacturers/exhiitors about the difficulties of getting good sound, and their complaints when they get honest feedback that is less than satisfying to them.

I know that it's difficult to get a good sound at a show -- and i don't want to be in the shoes of the exhitors either -- , but that sound is what potential customers necessarily judge the exhibit by. Or should manufacturers circle flyers among the audience explaining how much effort they put into it, for perhaps a few tears of sympathy?

The world doesn't work that way folks. Get over it.

If you think you can't get good sound, don't exhibit. If you think you can good sound, and the result is less than satisfying, take the blame like a man, rather than complaining about unfavorable feedback or conditions.

Exhibitors: you think you are tired of hearing about bad sound in your room? No, it's the paying visitors of the show who are sick and tired of hearing bad sound, and who deserve better. Think about that for a moment.

 

[Al M.]

On second thought, I apologize. I didn’t realize you have an illness of distorted perception. Please accept my heartfelt apology.

I will let other readers of this thread judge you by this post.

 

[amirm]

You're somewhat blinded as usual. I was stating my opinion but I guess I'm not entitled to one.I merely said Al was tough with my reason why!! For the record it was you at Axpona who commented that the VSA room had the speakers on the wrong wall when in reality they were in a square room. As for protection of companies I say you're barking up the wrong tree. Finally from what I recall reading the room acoustics at Axpona were designed by Art Noxon

You asked for feedback about VSA at Munich and when it was given you did not thank or acknowledge Alex. You then praise the person bashing Al on saying people should be free to express their opinion. How fast you took the seat of Peter B. in wanting to see nothing but positive praise for this company at shows.

As to me, here is their room:

You see that curtain? You see how were pushed toward the speakers?

Here is the wider shot: http://audiosciencereview.com/forum...-masterbuilt-audio-cables-asc-tubetraps.1575/

No one should be sitting so close to these giant speakers. They need distance to integrate their drivers at a minimum.

As to using Art, that is a serious problem in my book. Companies designing speakers better know room acoustics cold. It is shocking to me that they would use a consultant.

The best rooms at AXPONA were by far from people/companies who understood the system end-to-end. Ask Andrew Jones questions as I did and you heard a full answer that included both speaker and room acoustics. Walk into Wilson's large room and VSA and the sins committed were quite obvious. You cannot override room acoustics by shoving big speakers in it and hope for the best.

Here is another person whom I don't know who commented on the room at AXPONA:

"I sat in the sweet spot and it was the only spot that sounded half bad.. Huge thick muddy bass.. TEN feet tall vocals were not real .."

Without hearing either room you seem to have the expectation that folks must be walking away with a big grin. Well, that doesn't happen all the time and membership should be free to express such. If you are not tolerant of that, then make that clear in the mission statement of the forum instead of badgering people.

 

[joelavrencik]

I *was* at AXPONA 2017 with similar system from VSA. I was not impressed with their efforts there. I was told by Leif that I was the only one with such feedback or something to that regard. And that I too had an axe to grind (even though I had praised them at previous show).

As to your points, every manufacturer is faced with similar situation at shows. It is not like VSA was given an especially bad room. Indeed it was the opposite at AXPONA where they had a massive room compared to the typical hotel rooms. It is their jobs, despite any obstacles, to understand room acoustics, and appropriate music to impress folks. If they miss that for some attendees, they should have a voice on forums to express that. Having you, leif and now Steve going after members is improper. Very improper. It smells of protection of companies at the expense of consumers/membership.

And finally, the most juvenile thing for someone in the industry do is to come to audio forums and belittle members. You have to take the high road because you have a business to run and must act professionally at all times.

I’m not beating him up. Quite the opposite. He’s beating up a manufacturer for an issue he has no knowledge of. And, you too are quite wrong. The very best sounds at Munich are produced by companies that have been in the very same room for years and years. The VSA room is one of the most difficult huge rooms in the building. That’s why it was available. VSA could not have known this.

Remember the first time you rode a bike? I’ll bet you fell off at least once, just like the rest of us. As did everyone who ever won the Tour De France. See it now?

 

[adyc]

I *was* at AXPONA 2017 with similar system from VSA. I was not impressed with their efforts there. I was told by Leif that I was the only one with such feedback or something to that regard. And that I too had an axe to grind (even though I had praised them at previous show).

As to your points, every manufacturer is faced with similar situation at shows. It is not like VSA was given an especially bad room. Indeed it was the opposite at AXPONA where they had a massive room compared to the typical hotel rooms. It is their jobs, despite any obstacles, to understand room acoustics, and appropriate music to impress folks. If they miss that for some attendees, they should have a voice on forums to express that. Having you, leif and now Steve going after members is improper. Very improper. It smells of protection of companies at the expense of consumers/membership.

And finally, the most juvenile thing for someone in the industry do is to come to audio forums and belittle members. You have to take the high road because you have a business to run and must act professionally at all times.

I think it is more useful and fair to separate the final results whether it is due to instrinc sound of equipment and room acoustics. I heard ultra 11 in one home setup. It is superb.

Regarding show exhibitors are not putting efforts to make it work. If the room acoustics is bad, it will take considerable time and effort to make them work. I believe we audiophiles take months and years to sort our room acoustics including structural changes. Why do we expect show exhibitors can sort out the room acoustics in such a short time with portable room acoustics treatments?

 

[adyc]

Yes, I am tough, for good reason.

I, just like so many others, am tired of the bitching and moaning by manufacturers/exhiitors about the difficulties of getting good sound, and their complaints when they get honest feedback that is less than satisfying to them.

I know that it's difficult to get a good sound at a show -- and i don't want to be in the shoes of the exhitors either -- , but that sound is what potential customers necessarily judge the exhibit by. Or should manufacturers circle flyers among the audience explaining how much effort they put into it, for perhaps a few tears of sympathy?

The world doesn't work that way folks. Get over it.

If you think you can't get good sound, don't exhibit. If you think you can good sound, and the result is less than satisfying, take the blame like a man, rather than complaining about unfavorable feedback or conditions.

Exhibitors: you think you are tired of hearing about bad sound in your room? No, it's the paying visitors of the show who are sick and tired of hearing bad sound, and who deserve better. Think about that for a moment.

People judge their buying decisions based on show reports are missing a lot of potential treasures. Manufacturers coming to the show are for many different reasons. Introducing new products to new markets. Talking to old and potential customers on the latest and future developments.

I just want to say bad sound in shows does not imply bad products.

 

[Al M.]

People judge their buying decisions based on show reports are missing a lot of potential treasures.

True. Nobody contests that.

I just want to say bad sound in shows does not imply bad products.

I agree. I have said so in one of the earlier pages of this thread. However, show visitors still want to hear good sound, period. If you can't produce it, why bother?

 

[Steve Williams]

It is shocking to me that they would use a consultant.

That to me is just down right laughable. The fact that they knew they had a problem room with only one day to set up to me demonstrated a strong desire to have good sound

Finally you berate me for expressing my opinion and then you berate me for not expressing my opinion. Really???

 

[Leif S]

You asked for feedback about VSA at Munich and when it was given you did not thank or acknowledge Alex. You then praise the person bashing Al on saying people should be free to express their opinion. How fast you took the seat of Peter B. in wanting to see nothing but positive praise for this company at shows.

As to me, here is their room:

You see that curtain? You see how were pushed toward the speakers?

Here is the wider shot: http://audiosciencereview.com/forum...-masterbuilt-audio-cables-asc-tubetraps.1575/

No one should be sitting so close to these giant speakers. They need distance to integrate their drivers at a minimum.

As to using Art, that is a serious problem in my book. Companies designing speakers better know room acoustics cold. It is shocking to me that they would use a consultant.

The best rooms at AXPONA were by far from people/companies who understood the system end-to-end. Ask Andrew Jones questions as I did and you heard a full answer that included both speaker and room acoustics. Walk into Wilson's large room and VSA and the sins committed were quite obvious. You cannot override room acoustics by shoving big speakers in it and hope for the best.

Here is another person whom I don't know who commented on the room at AXPONA:

"I sat in the sweet spot and it was the only spot that sounded half bad.. Huge thick muddy bass.. TEN feet tall vocals were not real .."

Without hearing either room you seem to have the expectation that folks must be walking away with a big grin. Well, that doesn't happen all the time and membership should be free to express such. If you are not tolerant of that, then make that clear in the mission statement of the forum instead of badgering people.

Oh My GOD......

I'm supposed to take your advice on how to set a room with the speakers we designed? Are you kidding me.

 

[Al M.]

I heard ultra 11 in one home setup. It is superb.

I have no reason to doubt that.

Regarding show exhibitors are not putting efforts to make it work. If the room acoustics is bad, it will take considerable time and effort to make them work. I believe we audiophiles take months and years to sort our room acoustics including structural changes.

True. Very true.

Why do we expect show exhibitors can sort out the room acoustics in such a short time with portable room acoustics treatments?

Because visitors want to hear good sound, that's why. Should they feel pity for the exhibitors and perhaps shed a little tear for them? No, they didn't pay for shedding tears, they paid to hear good sound.

Again, if you are not sure you can't produce good sound, don't exhibit. Life is tough. Get over it. And don't bitch and moan and complain. And don't hope for some sympathy, it doesn't work that way. What works is delivering stellar sound for show goers.

 

[amirm]

I’m not beating him up. Quite the opposite. He’s beating up a manufacturer for an issue he has no knowledge of. And, you too are quite wrong. The very best sounds at Munich are produced by companies that have been in the very same room for years and years. The VSA room is one of the most difficult huge rooms in the building. That’s why it was available. VSA could not have known this.

Here is Leif's reaction:

Why does that answer not surprise me????

Oh I know, because your a dealer of other brands

Thanks Alex

That doesn't read like what you say. He is accusing members of having agendas, i.e. they must have done a perfect job for everyone and anyone who disagrees, must be submitted to this type of behavior.

When I met Leif at AXPONA, he also told me about difficulties he had in the room yet here, quickly accused me of having an agenda.

You all have a choice: have unrealistic expectation that everyone leaves an audio show with expensive gear as the best thing they have heard. Or that some people for objective and non-objective reasons would walk away with different impression. You cannot change them. But you can change yourself and represent the industry with professionalism and maturity.

 

[Leif S]

Yes, I am tough, for good reason.

I, just like so many others, am tired of the bitching and moaning by manufacturers/exhiitors about the difficulties of getting good sound, and their complaints when they get honest feedback that is less than satisfying to them.

I know that it's difficult to get a good sound at a show -- and i don't want to be in the shoes of the exhitors either -- , but that sound is what potential customers necessarily judge the exhibit by. Or should manufacturers circle flyers among the audience explaining how much effort they put into it, for perhaps a few tears of sympathy?

The world doesn't work that way folks. Get over it.

If you think you can't get good sound, don't exhibit. If you think you can good sound, and the result is less than satisfying, take the blame like a man, rather than complaining about unfavorable feedback or conditions.

Exhibitors: you think you are tired of hearing about bad sound in your room? No, it's the paying visitors of the show who are sick and tired of hearing bad sound, and who deserve better. Think about that for a moment.

Hey Al,

Where did we say we had room issues? All I said was thanks to Alex for a crappy show report coming from a dealer of Evolution Acoustics and YG. His history has shown that he has talked down on VSA and I took it a little personal. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[joelavrencik]

I will let other readers of this thread judge you by this post.

Judge me by the entirety of the posts leading up to that response. I was talking about the sonic difficulty of the rooms at the show for a first year attendee, and someone abused my post by conflating that theme with the results of the effort. These are 2 different things. This would be like conflating the self-defense of an innocent thought-provoking comment with unprovoked aggression................like you're doing now.

 

[Leif S]

Here is Leif's reaction:


That doesn't read like what you say. He is accusing members of having agendas, i.e. they must have done a perfect job for everyone and anyone who disagrees, must be submitted to this type of behavior.

When I met Leif at AXPONA, he also told me about difficulties he had in the room yet here, quickly accused me of having an agenda.

You all have a choice: have unrealistic expectation that everyone leaves an audio show with expensive gear as the best thing they have heard. Or that some people for objective and non-objective reasons would walk away with different impression. You cannot change them. But you can change yourself and represent the industry with professionalism and maturity.

Amir you are so full of crap. The only words I said to you was hello.

 

[joelavrencik]

People judge their buying decisions based on show reports are missing a lot of potential treasures. Manufacturers coming to the show are for many different reasons. Introducing new products to new markets. Talking to old and potential customers on the latest and future developments.

I just want to say bad sound in shows does not imply bad products.

Bravo! Well said.