How do you audition subwoofers?
- Thread starter amirm
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..have them read from a script? Sorry, couldn't resist. That's actually compelling question Amir. I bought my pair based on mfr. reputation and reviews of the specific model, never having heard them.
It was supposed to be a loaded question. Difficulties are:
1. A sub interacts the most with the room/location it is placed. So hearing it in a showroom or someone'e else's house is least representative of any other speaker solution.
2(a). Hearing a sub with normal speakers subjects you to an experience which could be due to the way the two are crossed.
2(b). The sound of the smaller speakers may dominate what you hear from the sub.
3. Precise material to use to test subs may be hard to come up. How would you know an explosion rattling the floor is the right sound or not? Even in music, what kind of rumble or deep sound is correct?
4. How do you know how linear the device is, especially at the extremes?
I have a partial solution but like to see others chime in first just in case they are smarter than me
.
1. A sub interacts the most with the room/location it is placed. So hearing it in a showroom or someone'e else's house is least representative of any other speaker solution.
2(a). Hearing a sub with normal speakers subjects you to an experience which could be due to the way the two are crossed.
2(b). The sound of the smaller speakers may dominate what you hear from the sub.
3. Precise material to use to test subs may be hard to come up. How would you know an explosion rattling the floor is the right sound or not? Even in music, what kind of rumble or deep sound is correct?
4. How do you know how linear the device is, especially at the extremes?
I have a partial solution but like to see others chime in first just in case they are smarter than me
.
When I purchased my subwoofer about 15 years ago I ended up with an M&K $800 push/pull over a Velodyne $1,200 servo because acoustic bass, drums and organ had more detail and warmth with the M&K. When I say warmth, I mean more real sounding like instruments made of wood, animal skins and brass.
The Velodyne had more power, went deeper, had more kick and dynamic wow but was cold. It also tended to make all deep low notes sound the same. It was also a larger driver and did not have the same pace and timing of the M&K with the more complex passages. Velodyne was the superior Home Theater subwoofer, the M&K more musical and suited for 2-channel stereo.
Take your own CD's and take your time, you can hear the differences as with any other speaker selection.
Of course things will sound different in your own room with your own system. What you are trying to do in an in-store audition is narrow down your choices. Tweak and tune when you get home as always.
The Velodyne had more power, went deeper, had more kick and dynamic wow but was cold. It also tended to make all deep low notes sound the same. It was also a larger driver and did not have the same pace and timing of the M&K with the more complex passages. Velodyne was the superior Home Theater subwoofer, the M&K more musical and suited for 2-channel stereo.
Take your own CD's and take your time, you can hear the differences as with any other speaker selection.
Of course things will sound different in your own room with your own system. What you are trying to do in an in-store audition is narrow down your choices. Tweak and tune when you get home as always.
Hopefully in a system with a known subwoofer for comparison and having taken some measurements of what is going on at the listening position with both the subwoofer and the main speakers used. It is because of the many complications you describe that good comparisons are hard to come by.
My biggest gripe is the void between those willing to pull out a computer & microphone vs. those who spend more time listening to the result. Measurements often create as many questions as they answer if lacking any simple, but very importnat observations (a standard part of the scientific proces). The other palm-to-forehead moments come from watching the desperate need to come up with a detailed explanation for the observations made in subjective evaluation. This clamoring for explanation is responsible for the worst of the audiophile folklore. Similarly, the hard core objectivists are quick to throw the baby out with the bath water...
I cringe when I see responses of "That's not what you heard," when the issue they have is in fact only with the explanation. I don't question observations or perceptions, but rather approach the explanations with plenty of skepticism. Questioning someone's observations is generally insulting. Correcting or explaining why they heard/perceived what they did is helpful.
I'd like to see a list of reasons why one cannot or should not listen to a subwoofer at home or in a store as they would in the purchase of any other speaker system.
Do I use a computer and a mic in my decision in selecting main speakers? I don't but perhaps some do, it's just a question.
Typically the sales people in a high-end salon know what the crossover setting should be with the main speakers in their store, and the best placement in that room. The real problem if any is trying to decide between two or more different store locations. I never put myself in the position of having to cross that road, and kept it simple. One store, one listening room, one pair of main speakers, two different subwoofers and several known CD's.
Do I use a computer and a mic in my decision in selecting main speakers? I don't but perhaps some do, it's just a question.
Typically the sales people in a high-end salon know what the crossover setting should be with the main speakers in their store, and the best placement in that room. The real problem if any is trying to decide between two or more different store locations. I never put myself in the position of having to cross that road, and kept it simple. One store, one listening room, one pair of main speakers, two different subwoofers and several known CD's.
Excellent question and reason for this thread
.Let me start with a video analogy. In professional world, when someone says, "here, look at this good looking video" the first thing many of us do is turn off the color! Pro displays actually have a button that turns the display into black and white. Why? Because that eliminates color which tends to give beauty to the image and mask the real truth with respect to distortion in the black and white signal (the other reason is that the eye is more sensitive to black and white but we digress).
By the same token, if you audition a subwoofer with the normal speakers playing, they could easily mask or distort the experiment. If I swapped the specific speakers with another, surely they perception changes radically, causing us to potentially want or not want to buy the sub all of a sudden.
I had this epiphany when I went to audition subs years ago at our local high-end shop. He had half a dozen subs in their speaker room, each located in a different spot. Obviously he couldn't put them all on top of each other but still, some where in the middle of the room and some in the corners. He then asked what other speakers he should play together with them. I picked a random pair, still thinking that this was an absurd way to evaluate what I wanted to evaluate. But went along anyway for the moment. But after a while, I just had to stop as I didn't think I was really testing what I wanted to test.
My partial solution was to tell him to just play the sub without the other speakers! Yes, just the sub. The first thing we noticed that the subs were hardly doing anything at the volumes he was playing. You would hear a burp from the sub here and there but otherwise, most of the time they were quiet. So I asked him to turn up the volume. Only then, did I directly hear the character of the sub. I could hear the ones that rattled, I could hear the ones that were clean and were at least approximating music that we were listening.
I then put my engineering hat on and went and put my hand on each sub. I was feeling for how much vibration was transmitting through the enclosure, whether it was flexing, etc. All of this informed me on which sub was likely a better choice but by no means, did I think I had the complete methodology to do this evaluation.
I think Mark's suggestion is a good one as far as bringing in measurement gear. As he says though, that requires knowledge and control/understanding of the room which is very hard for the typical audiophile. Maybe the people selling the sub should do the measurements in advance and present them?
I've heard rear surrounds only, and I have heard sub only, so I know what you are saying about the limited information you can get though isolation. Turn it up, can't hurt.
Hi
Auditioning subwoofers remains however difficult, if you don't measure... Listening to subs all by themselves is for the lack of a better term, unnatural. It becomes quickly difficult if not impossible to do for any reasonable amount of time ...
Several terms have been used to describe sub performance. The observation and their characterization stems a lot from the set up and the flexibility of the settings provided or available with the subs. I am not saying by that that ALL subs are good.. simply that several of the flaws we attribute to subs (slow, one-note, etc) can be traced to the set-up.
Mark post is spot on by the way.
Frantz
Auditioning subwoofers remains however difficult, if you don't measure... Listening to subs all by themselves is for the lack of a better term, unnatural. It becomes quickly difficult if not impossible to do for any reasonable amount of time ...
Several terms have been used to describe sub performance. The observation and their characterization stems a lot from the set up and the flexibility of the settings provided or available with the subs. I am not saying by that that ALL subs are good.. simply that several of the flaws we attribute to subs (slow, one-note, etc) can be traced to the set-up.
Mark post is spot on by the way.
Frantz
I'm not suggesting you have to, but the person setting up the demonstration should have made at least a 1st order pass to know what's going on in the room and with the location of the subwoofer.
You give them much more credit than I do.
The most prosperous sales people in a high-end salon are more skilled in giving you the sales pitch than in setting up a sound system. Unless you get in there and make various adjustments while listening with some intent on what you are on watch for, you are at the mercy of the salesperson. It's easy to make most any subwoofer sound very mediocre and un-impressive with a few adjustments. This leaves you in one of 3 situations...
1) You trust their skill in setup and their honesty to provide a representative presentation to you
2) You trust they are clueless enough to not intentionally trick you and are just happy to take the order for whatever you decide you like
or...
3) You feel you know enough and are experienced enough in listening and setup to catch any errors (accidental or not) in setup through your own evaluation process.
I would suggest that an impressive demo confirms the potential of a product to delivery good performance. If a product is a poor performer, setup can only help so much. The catch is that you can only really confirm potential, as bad sound from an entirely subjective listening evaluation does not give you enough information to determine if the product is a poor performer or the system is set up poorly. All you know is that the sound presented to you was lacking. This gets back to my comment about observations above. Hearing highly resonant, imprecise and sloppy bass is the observation made by the listener, not that the subwoofer sucks, which is explanation some will immediately make.
Thanks Frantz,
You are very much on target here. I've posted many times that one of the most sobering experiences I had was when first playing with a flexible EQ on a capable system. While easily explained, most would never think that filter that raised or lowered ONLY the response above 1-2kHz would have a dramatic effect on the subjective bass quality from the system, especially on percussive instruments and sounds.
There are ways a dealer could make for some very useful demonstrations with a few simple measurements of the system being heard, but most AV businesses are set up to make money selling products, not skills or services.
Good information presented here.
There seems to be no quick easy and simple answer or process in selecting a subwoofer.
I'm guessing most people will not instantly become acoustic engineers with measuring equipment and suddenly be able to make sense of it. Therefore we are left with careful setups in familiar circumstances to weed out the weak of the herd.
There seems to be no quick easy and simple answer or process in selecting a subwoofer.
I'm guessing most people will not instantly become acoustic engineers with measuring equipment and suddenly be able to make sense of it. Therefore we are left with careful setups in familiar circumstances to weed out the weak of the herd.
My process is a bit involved... I will skip measurements (which I do) and the obvious "listen in your own well-treated room" (which I have) discussion to focus upon auditioning at a dealer as part of the buying experience. For me, it's hard to isolate the subwoofer, and listening to it alone takes away all musical context and makes it that much harder, imo. There is only so much you can do to the room, and you have no control over what the dealer did (or did not) do, so I try to minimize its impact by listening in the near field. No, it's not a perfect, maybe not even that helpful, but makes me feel better.
I start at home, days/weeks before auditioning, by selecting some music (perhaps movies too in this modern world I find myself thrust into) with a variety of bass samples. Jazz with acoustic and electric bass, some cuts with good drum recordings (Sheffield, Flim and the BB's comes to mind), and some orchestral stuff that has lots of kettle and bass work. I listen some with my system, and more with some good headphones so I get a feel for what 's going on in the bass region. I turn down the mid/treble and listen to the sound of the bass attacks, overhang on the decay, etc. I am fortunate to have a decent system* so I can hear the bass pretty well at home and provide a comparison. Nowadays, it's pretty easy to make a test CD of your own favorite cuts using some lossless format.
At the store, I ask the to turn the mains down a bit (or turn up the sub) so I can listen/feel the sub above the rest of the system. I don't want to lose the context, but want to hear the sub and not the mains, plus it's easier on my ears when I turn up the sub and bring down the rest. I plop down in front of the sub (three to six feet in front) with a long extension cord for my headphones to the receiver. I play my test cuts, listening to see how closely the sub matches the envelope of the music in the 'phones (alternating how I listen). I am not listening for absolutes, just to see how well the sub(s) sound relative to the phones. I am mainly listening to the sub's upper response, how cleanly it handles attacks and how well it matches the decay. Some instruments drop right off, and some decay/ring/flop around a bit, like loose kettle drums -- I want to hear the sub match the quality and character of the source.
Somewhere south of 100 Hz the sound crosses over to "feel" and at that point I have a hard time doing much without instruments and measurements. Headphones don't really help with the very deep bass (again imo). Listening back to back I can tell which sub feels deeper and louder, but it gets pretty subjective without instruments, and of course there's always that tendency to think "louder is better". Where my initial listening uses a wide variety of material, for this last bit I tend to focus on just a few drum tracks so I can "feel" the percussive attack and decay. It is hard to describe but easy to hear when a tight trap bass drum rings too long after the strike, or a kettle drum does not boom out loud and loose like it should.
Not the best, I am sure, and leaves a lot of subjective leeway, but for general listening to try to narrow down my choices, or just see if I can hear the differences, that's what I do. when I have the time!
FWIWFM - Don
* Nowhere near what some people here have, mind you!
I start at home, days/weeks before auditioning, by selecting some music (perhaps movies too in this modern world I find myself thrust into) with a variety of bass samples. Jazz with acoustic and electric bass, some cuts with good drum recordings (Sheffield, Flim and the BB's comes to mind), and some orchestral stuff that has lots of kettle and bass work. I listen some with my system, and more with some good headphones so I get a feel for what 's going on in the bass region. I turn down the mid/treble and listen to the sound of the bass attacks, overhang on the decay, etc. I am fortunate to have a decent system* so I can hear the bass pretty well at home and provide a comparison. Nowadays, it's pretty easy to make a test CD of your own favorite cuts using some lossless format.
At the store, I ask the to turn the mains down a bit (or turn up the sub) so I can listen/feel the sub above the rest of the system. I don't want to lose the context, but want to hear the sub and not the mains, plus it's easier on my ears when I turn up the sub and bring down the rest. I plop down in front of the sub (three to six feet in front) with a long extension cord for my headphones to the receiver. I play my test cuts, listening to see how closely the sub matches the envelope of the music in the 'phones (alternating how I listen). I am not listening for absolutes, just to see how well the sub(s) sound relative to the phones. I am mainly listening to the sub's upper response, how cleanly it handles attacks and how well it matches the decay. Some instruments drop right off, and some decay/ring/flop around a bit, like loose kettle drums -- I want to hear the sub match the quality and character of the source.
Somewhere south of 100 Hz the sound crosses over to "feel" and at that point I have a hard time doing much without instruments and measurements. Headphones don't really help with the very deep bass (again imo). Listening back to back I can tell which sub feels deeper and louder, but it gets pretty subjective without instruments, and of course there's always that tendency to think "louder is better". Where my initial listening uses a wide variety of material, for this last bit I tend to focus on just a few drum tracks so I can "feel" the percussive attack and decay. It is hard to describe but easy to hear when a tight trap bass drum rings too long after the strike, or a kettle drum does not boom out loud and loose like it should.
Not the best, I am sure, and leaves a lot of subjective leeway, but for general listening to try to narrow down my choices, or just see if I can hear the differences, that's what I do. when I have the time!
FWIWFM - Don
* Nowhere near what some people here have, mind you!
I like the idea of reduced volume for the mains. It is a nicer compromise between no mains and full on.
Geez, have I ever? I must have but mainly I have set criteria.
I usually try to match the sub configuration as best I can with what the main speakers are but before that here are my minimum requirements.
1. Sealed enclosure or bandpass only - I've had ported subs in the past but they have all proved to be disruptive in that one note and chuffy way.
2. The knuckle wrap - I can't stand hearing baffle flexure artifacts. The thing has got to bruise my knuckles.
3. The Skittle Check - I've seen some subs dance around when in play. It's got to have enough mass to stay put.
4. Crossover and Phase control flexibility
As for matching, My HT fronts have always been full range and my amps always 200wpc or more. As such I almost always crossover on the low side since I skip THX and just do DD or DTS. I usually go for a gentle slope that starts anywhere from 60Hz to 50Hz. Output with a sense of effortlessness is more important to me then. They have got to be working like they are on a leisurely stroll. When using say speakers with 6.5" woofers I find a pair of 10" subs with 300w plate amps subs blend in well enough. With speakers with 9.5" woofers then I go with 12" subs with 300 watt or more plate amps. If I were to say match subs to my present main speakers which have built in 15" subs with kilowatt plate amps I'm sure I'd need a sub or subs that wouldn't be drowned out.
I usually try to match the sub configuration as best I can with what the main speakers are but before that here are my minimum requirements.
1. Sealed enclosure or bandpass only - I've had ported subs in the past but they have all proved to be disruptive in that one note and chuffy way.
2. The knuckle wrap - I can't stand hearing baffle flexure artifacts. The thing has got to bruise my knuckles.
3. The Skittle Check - I've seen some subs dance around when in play. It's got to have enough mass to stay put.
4. Crossover and Phase control flexibility
As for matching, My HT fronts have always been full range and my amps always 200wpc or more. As such I almost always crossover on the low side since I skip THX and just do DD or DTS. I usually go for a gentle slope that starts anywhere from 60Hz to 50Hz. Output with a sense of effortlessness is more important to me then. They have got to be working like they are on a leisurely stroll. When using say speakers with 6.5" woofers I find a pair of 10" subs with 300w plate amps subs blend in well enough. With speakers with 9.5" woofers then I go with 12" subs with 300 watt or more plate amps. If I were to say match subs to my present main speakers which have built in 15" subs with kilowatt plate amps I'm sure I'd need a sub or subs that wouldn't be drowned out.
You have to make sure your source material has true sub material. Much deep bass material is actually being handled by the woofer. Secondly make sure the electronics is linear to the subwoofer region. This is taken for granted. I recall being unimpressed by a subwoofer. My dealer borrowed some Krell electronics and bought his on demo record. The whole room shook.
I have had three subs in my system. My first was a Def Tech Powerfield 15. That was many moons ago. I heard in a system at a store and they played Star Trek Generations. Since I was very new to HT I was extremely impressed with how it sounded. It was affordable so I ended up buying it. The I started to hang out in a high end store. It is my opinion that these guys knew what they were doing. So I spent a lot of time there listening to different systems. I heard many subs there. I would spend 3-4 hours a week just listening to the different systems. I would watch movies that had strong dynamics. I ended up with a JM Labs SW900. I auditioned that sub at the store. Then I decided that I wanted more. So someone who I respected pointed me in the direction of Mark Seaton. We started to talk and I was convinced by what he was telling me, and showing me that this was the right sub for me. So I bought it WITHOUT listening to it. At the time I had only done that one time before with speakers. I am not a technical guy when it comes to audio. I just know what I like when I hear it.
Now don't laugh at me you guys, but since I got into the DIY subwoofer building I audition them actually by building them and listening to them in my system. If I build say a sealed enclosure and don't like the sound I can model up a ported enclosure and try the same speaker in a different enclosure and all I am out is the cost of the mdf and my time building the enclosure. My latest project which is just about complete are 2 15" Dayton subs in sono tubes with 18" passive radiators for the LFE in the H/T part of my system they should be good down to about 22Hz.
Interesting, I've thought of doing something like that for years, but never got off my butt to do it.
Have you seen this project?
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=911179
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