Best alternative: Preamp with built in DAC chip or Modern DAC

[Blizzard]

Modified Belles two box.

Tubes in it?

Is this the dealer you buy from:

http://www.coherent-systems.co.uk/belles.asp


Looks like Belles makes a pre/dac/phonostage combo as well:


http://www.coherent-systems.co.uk/belles_10A_preamplifier.asp

Ever hear it?

 

[spazmatron]

Tubes in it?

Is this the dealer you buy from:

http://www.coherent-systems.co.uk/belles.asp

Don't be daft lol

Yes that is he.

 

[Blizzard]

Don't be daft lol

Yes that is he.

I updated the last post with an additional question.

 

[spazmatron]

I don't think it took off and they stopped offering it on the power modules website , I think it had a wolfson chip? Not herd it mate anyway.

Belles stuff is good but it solid hifi not flashy boxes.

My pre is the la-01 but modified a little.

 

[bonzo75]

I've had it on the same settings for so long now that I can't remember exactly. But I do remember that if DirectSDM is unchecked in DSF DSDiff, it enables extra filters that add additional warmth. You will have to play around. Takes a while to achieve the exact balance that suits your tastes. then again, every recording is different.

What they are working on is the ability to embed the filter settings into the tagging of each track or album. This way the filters will automatically change with each track or album. This way you can "remaster" each one of your tracks or albums to your personal tastes! Much easier than switching systems for each genre of music!

What you should try is Roon direct to the DAC with HQplayer off, and the Pass labs pre in the chain, vs NADAC direct to amps with HQplayer. This will be a real eye opener as most people that use high end preamps on here with their DAC's, turn their noses up at hqplayer.

Use the filters in HQplayer to try to achieve the same level of warmth as the pass pre adds going Roon direct with no HQplayer. Then compare with Roon direct with the Pass. Let us know your preferred combination with Redbook.

Lol. HQP filters do not match voltage or impedance with the power amp. The guys actually agree HQP is extremely good, but that is to create music through the dac. Then they use a pre in the chain.

For the level of components you listen to, pre and dac will sound the same and HQP probably makes the biggest difference

 

[DaveC]

I just read the first page and wanted to say Blizzard, you are so totally and completely wrong on this subject it's amazing to me. You seem smart, but your assumptions seem based not on experience but on wishing things were the way you imagine them. You state things as fact that are simply untrue (a system is only as good as it's weakest link, sorry but electricity doesn't work that way... one crappy resistor in series with the signal isn't going to bottleneck the entire system, one brass RCA jack isn't going to ruin everything). You also think digital volume controls can't cause audible signal degradation, again wrong... Your arguments are also based on semantics, you want a amp/DAC combo, and want to call it a DAC and no preamp is needed. It's a little ridiculous, you're advocation for an integrated component that is BOTH DAC and Preamp in one. The idea has merit but the way you present it... that preamps are BAD... is more than a little ridiculous considering there NEEDS to be a way to control volume and maybe switch sources as not everyone wants to change cables all the time.

So let's call a spade a spade, you want preamp functionality in your DAC. Great, that sounds very reasonable. But separate boxes don't do nearly as much harm as you claim and many times dedicated preamps sounds better to the vast majority of folks, but the problem is you've never experienced this and don't really know.

 

[Purite Audio]

I just read the first page and wanted to say Blizzard, you are so totally and completely wrong on this subject it's amazing to me. You seem smart, but your assumptions seem based not on experience but on wishing things were the way you imagine them. You state things as fact that are simply untrue (a system is only as good as it's weakest link, sorry but electricity doesn't work that way... one crappy resistor in series with the signal isn't going to bottleneck the entire system, one brass RCA jack isn't going to ruin everything). You also think digital volume controls can't cause audible signal degradation, again wrong... Your arguments are also based on semantics, you want a amp/DAC combo, and want to call it a DAC and no preamp is needed. It's a little ridiculous, you're advocation for an integrated component that is BOTH DAC and Preamp in one. The idea has merit but the way you present it... that preamps are BAD... is more than a little ridiculous considering there NEEDS to be a way to control volume and maybe switch sources as not everyone wants to change cables all the time.

So let's call a spade a spade, you want preamp functionality in your DAC. Great, that sounds very reasonable. But separate boxes don't do nearly as much harm as you claim and many times dedicated preamps sounds better to the vast majority of folks, but the problem is you've never experienced this and don't really know.

Historically preamps were vital for overall gain, but with modern digital sources they really aren't necessary.
Weiss has produced a very interesting paper on digital versus analogue attenuation, I will post a link.
Keith.

 

[Blizzard]

Lol. HQP filters do not match voltage or impedance with the power amp. The guys actually agree HQP is extremely good, but that is to create music through the dac. Then they use a pre in the chain.

For the level of components you listen to, pre and dac will sound the same and HQP probably makes the biggest difference

We will see what the results say. Is there an impedance issue with the NADAC and Pass amps I'm unaware of?

 

[Blizzard]

I just read the first page and wanted to say Blizzard, you are so totally and completely wrong on this subject it's amazing to me. You seem smart, but your assumptions seem based not on experience but on wishing things were the way you imagine them. You state things as fact that are simply untrue (a system is only as good as it's weakest link, sorry but electricity doesn't work that way... one crappy resistor in series with the signal isn't going to bottleneck the entire system, one brass RCA jack isn't going to ruin everything). You also think digital volume controls can't cause audible signal degradation, again wrong... Your arguments are also based on semantics, you want a amp/DAC combo, and want to call it a DAC and no preamp is needed. It's a little ridiculous, you're advocation for an integrated component that is BOTH DAC and Preamp in one. The idea has merit but the way you present it... that preamps are BAD... is more than a little ridiculous considering there NEEDS to be a way to control volume and maybe switch sources as not everyone wants to change cables all the time.

So let's call a spade a spade, you want preamp functionality in your DAC. Great, that sounds very reasonable. But separate boxes don't do nearly as much harm as you claim and many times dedicated preamps sounds better to the vast majority of folks, but the problem is you've never experienced this and don't really know.

You are making blanket statements about digital volume controls assuming that every implementation is identical. If your DAC has an 32 bit volume control like in the sabre chip, and a noise floor better than -125db, you will never beat it with an analog volume control. I don't care if you spend a billion dollars.

Once again I still say if the output stage in a DAC is properly designed, there absolutely no need for a preamp. All the preamp will do is color the sound.

Why not just put 100' of home depot speaker cable in the system instead? Never know, you might get lucky and get the same level of coloration

 

[Blizzard]

Historically preamps were vital for overall gain, but with modern digital sources they really aren't necessary.
Weiss has produced a very interesting paper on digital versus analogue attenuation, I will post a link.
Keith.

I've posted this several times already, but fell on deaf ears to some. But you really need to listen to what he's actually saying, because he's a very clever man, and knows the myths surrounding analog volume controls. So he presented things in a way that the naysayer would have trouble arguing with. IE, "Analog volume controls are better", but this is only if they have a noise floor below -135db. Good luck with that But then you also have other artifacts with analog volume controls as well like the extra circuity in the signal path, so it's pretty much ridiculous if you think you can do a better analog volume control in a DAC with a Sabre chip, than the digital one in the chip. However, the DAC must have a very low noise floor for this to be true. Great example, the NADAC.

 

[PeterA]

In the absolute audiophile world, where "everything matters," this would be the no brainer. Regardless of the price of the pre, it contains wires, jacks, a volume control...parts. Now, whether or not they add anything audible is another question.



A smarmy choice of words, perhaps. Would you have preferred "noise and distortion?"



In a world in which people hear wire, what other kind of position can there be?

Tim

Great points, Tim. Yes, is it audible, is indeed a good question. Hard to know unless one actually listens to it.

Yes, I would have preferred "noise and distortion" to "fairy dust". The latter is just insulting and plain inaccurate.

The statement, that all preamps add color, is absolute, and I believe that Blizzard believes this. How is it that high end preamps, in fact, all preamps according to Blizzard, add color to the signal, yet the preamp in the NADAC, or other dac/preamps, are completely transparent and add no color?

 

[Blizzard]

Great points, Tim. Yes, is it audible, is indeed a good question. Hard to know unless one actually listens to it.

Yes, I would have preferred "noise and distortion" to "fairy dust". The latter is just insulting and plain inaccurate.

The statement, that all preamps add color, is absolute, and I believe that Blizzard believes this. How is it that high end preamps, in fact, all preamps according to Blizzard, add color to the signal, yet the preamp in the NADAC, or other dac/preamps, are completely transparent and add no color?

Why do you think the term "fairy dust" is insulting? Sounds more like a euphemism to me. The HQplayer filters add "fairy dust" as well. Not sure why you would be offended by pointing out the reasons why the gear you enjoy, sounds he way it does. You would think, you would want to know this, rather than be offended.


And yes the NADAC is designed specifically for upmost transparency. Where the Pass gear is designed for warmth and richness. This is not a conspiracy theory. It's something that is well known about Pass electronics.

 

[PeterA]

Most DAC's are DAC's inserted into preamps. They just don't have analog inputs. What do you suppose is different?

I'm not an engineer, as you well know, so I can't answer that question. I do still think that a traditional preamp differs from a DAC. They have different functionality and seem to emphasis different strengths. If one inserts a DAC into a traditional preamp, and it retains all of the functionality of a preamp, then I suppose one would have to look at measurements, build quality, parts quality, and finally listen to determine what the differences are. Some will be better than others.

You once wrote that all preamps are colored. If, as you just wrote, "Most DAC's are DAC's inserted into preamps", it would follow that these preamps with inserted DACs are also colored. So, I suppose the difference is that somehow, this NADAC unit, which is really a DAC inserted into a preamp, is the one preamp which is not colored and completely transparent, unlike every other preamp available. That seems somewhat of a stretch. And hard to know unless one has compared them in the ways I list above.

 

[spazmatron]

I'm not an engineer, as you well know, so I can't answer that question. I do still think that a traditional preamp differs from a DAC. They have different functionality and seem to emphasis different strengths. If one inserts a DAC into a traditional preamp, and it retains all of the functionality of a preamp, then I suppose one would have to look at measurements, build quality, parts quality, and finally listen to determine what the differences are. Some will be better than others.

You once wrote that all preamps are colored. If, as you just wrote, "Most DAC's are DAC's inserted into preamps", it would follow that these preamps with inserted DACs are also colored. So, I suppose the difference is that somehow, this NADAC unit, which is really a DAC inserted into a preamp, is the one preamp which is not colored and completely transparent, unlike every other preamp available. That seems somewhat of a stretch. And hard to know unless one has compared them in the ways I list above.

I would not give this too much thought Peter, your having a great time with your tt. You love your pass labs pre and all so Why care. if you end up getting a dac with a volume control of some kind you can a/b it against your pass labs pre. even if you got a dac and decided it's a bit better direct into amps matters of convenience will probably lead you to plugging it into a pre anyway. You like the presentation of your pass labs pre so best stick to that imo.

 

[PeterA]

Why do you think the term "fairy dust" is insulting? Sounds more like a euphemism to me. The HQplayer filters add "fairy dust" as well. Not sure why you would be offended by pointing out the reasons why the gear you enjoy, sounds he way it does. You would think, you would want to know this, rather than be offended.


And yes the NADAC is designed specifically for upmost transparency. Where the Pass gear is designed for warmth and richness. This is not a conspiracy theory. It's something that is well known about Pass electronics.

Blizzard, will you be asking Tim why he thinks your term "fairy dust" is "smarmy"?

Fairy dust is a very vague term which does not convey specific meaning. I would like to know why the top Spectral or Pass preamps sound the way they do. So would a lot of other engineers and DIY enthusiasts and fellow audiophiles. Can you explain it to us in specific terms? I assume you have heard them so that you can ascribe particular aspects of their design to particular aspects of their sound.

I mentioned four well known and highly regarded preamps in the original post: Solution, Spectral, Dartzeel, and Pass Labs. If you think the Pass Labs preamps are designed for warmth and richness, that is your opinion, not mine. Do you base this on actual comparative listening tests? Did you read the design brief? On what do you base this opinion? I think one would have to ask Nelson Pass or Wayne Colburn directly to know what his products are designed for.

 

[Blizzard]

I'm not an engineer, as you well know, so I can't answer that question. I do still think that a traditional preamp differs from a DAC. They have different functionality and seem to emphasis different strengths. If one inserts a DAC into a traditional preamp, and it retains all of the functionality of a preamp, then I suppose one would have to look at measurements, build quality, parts quality, and finally listen to determine what the differences are. Some will be better than others.

You once wrote that all preamps are colored. If, as you just wrote, "Most DAC's are DAC's inserted into preamps", it would follow that these preamps with inserted DACs are also colored. So, I suppose the difference is that somehow, this NADAC unit, which is really a DAC inserted into a preamp, is the one preamp which is not colored and completely transparent, unlike every other preamp available. That seems somewhat of a stretch. And hard to know unless one has compared them in the ways I list above.

You have a misunderstanding of things. Everything adds some degree of coloration. even a 1' length of speaker cable, add's some degree of coloration. Once that coloration is introduced into the system it's there. Coloration isn't a swear word. Coloration's can be pleasant, not just bad.

And yes DAC's are just preamps with digital inputs only, and DAC sections in them. Some have analog inputs as well. Many DAC's may have weaker gain stages than dedicated traditional preamps do, but it's not a rule that they must.

When you put an additional preamp in the chain, you are adding an additional set of interconnects, and passing the signal through a bunch of extra electronics. How can there be absolutely no coloration involved with doing that, when a short little piece of interconnect cable on it's own can make a huge subjective difference?

Have you ever daisy chained 2 preamps together with your vinyl only rig? Did you try connecting the XS preamp, after your XP-20 preamp, and seeing if it sounds better yet? If it sounds better, imagine if you connected 5 or 10 of them together! You wouldn't even need your amps anymore after a while.

 

[spazmatron]

Blizzard, will you be asking Tim why he thinks your term "fairy dust" is "smarmy"?

Fairy dust is a very vague term which does not convey specific meaning. I would like to know why the top Spectral or Pass preamps sound the way they do. So would a lot of other engineers and DIY enthusiasts and fellow audiophiles. Can you explain it to us in specific terms? I assume you have heard them so that you can ascribe particular aspects of their design to particular aspects of their sound.

I mentioned four well known and highly regarded preamps in the original post: Solution, Spectral, Dartzeel, and Pass Labs. If you think the Pass Labs preamps are designed for warmth and richness, that is your opinion, not mine. Do you base this on actual comparative listening tests? Did you read the design brief? On what do you base this opinion? I think one would have to ask Nelson Pass or Wayne Colburn directly to know what his products are designed for.

No he can't explain it in electronic engineering terms, that's why he said fairy dust. Replace that word with magic. It's the same thing, you love the magic of Your pass gear. Cool.

 

[Blizzard]

Blizzard, will you be asking Tim why he thinks your term "fairy dust" is "smarmy"?

Fairy dust is a very vague term which does not convey specific meaning. I would like to know why the top Spectral or Pass preamps sound the way they do. So would a lot of other engineers and DIY enthusiasts and fellow audiophiles. Can you explain it to us in specific terms? I assume you have heard them so that you can ascribe particular aspects of their design to particular aspects of their sound.

I mentioned four well known and highly regarded preamps in the original post: Solution, Spectral, Dartzeel, and Pass Labs. If you think the Pass Labs preamps are designed for warmth and richness, that is your opinion, not mine. Do you base this on actual comparative listening tests? Did you read the design brief? On what do you base this opinion? I think one would have to ask Nelson Pass or Wayne Colburn directly to know what his products are designed for.

Out of the above mentioned components, the Spectral's are likely designed to be the most transparent. Pretty much all "audiophile" components are specifically tuned to a "house sound". Some have more coloration than others. But the coloration is intentional, not by accident. Merging products on the other hand are unique. As they are specifically designed for lack of coloration. This is because they are from the pro recording world. They build stuff made to be 100% true to the source. This might not be of taste to some, but that's how they build things. If you don't like the sound, it means you don't like the sound of the recording. Simple as that.

HQplayer is a phenomenal companion to components like this. It's because it can allow you to develop your own "house sound" based on your own personal tastes.

 

[Blizzard]

No he can't explain it in electronic engineering terms, that's why he said fairy dust. Replace that word with magic. It's the same thing, you love the magic of Your pass gear. Cool.

The euphemism wasn't to his tastes so I guess that means it's an insult. I wonder if "incredible", or "fantastic" would be an acceptable term?

I actually got the "Fairy dust" euphemism from Bruno Putzeys and thought it was quite accurate:

 

[PeterA]

You have a misunderstanding of things. Everything adds some degree of coloration. even a 1' length of speaker cable, add's some degree of coloration. Once that coloration is introduced into the system it's there. Coloration isn't a swear word. Coloration's can be pleasant, not just bad.

And yes DAC's are just preamps with digital inputs only, and DAC sections in them. Some have analog inputs as well. Many DAC's may have weaker gain stages than dedicated traditional preamps do, but it's not a rule that they must.

When you put an additional preamp in the chain, you are adding an additional set of interconnects, and passing the signal through a bunch of extra electronics. How can there be absolutely no coloration involved with doing that, when a short little piece of interconnect cable on it's only can make a huge subjective difference?

Have you ever daisy chained 2 preamps together with your vinyl only rig? Did you try connecting the XS preamp, after your XS-20 preamp, and seeing if it sounds better yet?

Thank you for that clarification, Blizzard. I understand things a bit better now. I never really thought the NADAC could be completely transparent, but by inference, you have just confirmed that it is not. I am still interested in hearing it, though, and look forward to visiting MadFloyd. Perhaps we will bypass the Pass preamp for comparison.

I have not daisy chained 2 preamps mainly because I could never see myself spending the extra cost, so it never really occurred to me to try. Might be fun just to see how much the sound degrades. As Tim, wrote, the question is, "Is it audible?" I can't say until I've tried it.

The questions in my original post are being answered and I have learned something from having started this thread which was not clear from the other two discussions on this topic in the other threads. So I appreciate your input and that from others.