Is the Trinity DAC already Obsolete?

[Enatai252]

My question is really broader than the title but the Trinity seems to be a good example; What does a SOTA DAC need to have today to make the investment worth it and lasting? The Digital landscape is changing rapidly and for someone looking to invest $30K+ (in some cases much more)....I am interested in everyone's feedback as to what are the "must-have" specs. Do you have to have DSD capability? That would rule out all DACs with BB 1704 chips which is one of my favorites. Do you need Ethernet connection? The industry seems to be moving towards this as the connection of choice for best performance. The Trinity and some other high performance DACs have neither. Will things like Roon and Tidal change the way we interact with digital content. Can you really have a DAC that optimizes for both PCM (multi-bit) and DSD (single-bit). Or do we really need to have individual units specialized for a particular format.

What do some of you think the landscape will look like in 2-3 years. Will manufactures continue to invest in proprietary GUI platforms or will Roon or others become the norm. Will we stream from providers like Tidal more than invest in adding to our library. Do products like the Merging_Nadac make progress with their ethernet interface and control platform and set a new bar of performance. Are the companies that don't rely on off-the-shelf chips better positioned?

This thread is not about the SQ of the Trinity or any other DAC (although SQ is my most critical consideration set)....that is covered in other threads...just curious as to the consideration set people are using when purchasing a SOTA DAC today without filling burned 2-3 years down the road. I am a little worried that for the next few years we are all going to be "beta" users as the landscape changes. Thoughts?

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I can say that whilst the sound quality of the golden gate was the ultimate factor in my decision to purchase, the ability to be upgraded or traded with Lampizator made the value proposition far too good to be missed. I only read a thread earlier today where Lampizator are testing new ultra high quality Anamero cards, which will no doubt find their way into new products. With many companies, I would be annoyed but I merely smiled to myself and thought I wonder when I will get that done...

Would I personally spend that kind of money on a DAC with no upgrade path - honestly no.

 

[Bruce B]

If a DAC can be upgraded or firmware be flashed, then I call that a good value. Case in point, the Playback Designs MPS-5. Great piece of gear with updates being regularly offered.

 

[amirm]

I am a fan of getting original stereo master format. If it is DSD, that is what I like to see. If it is PCM, then that is the one. This means you do need DSD and PCM playback capability.

Currently I only have a PCM DAC but my Roon software does on the fly conversion of DSD to PCM. It gives you four (?) different choices but I find the default excellent and not found a difference between that and off-line converted version. So as an interim solution, it works for me.

Note that I am not expressing any preference in formats. As I said, I like to get the native format and not have it be converted for me by the distributor.

 

[Believe High Fidelity]

Subscribed. Curious to know what people think about this...

 

[Ric Schultz]

Obsolete is a pretty hard word. If something is the best sounding thing at its price range then it is that.....then it is worth having. If the $38,000 Kassandra blows the Trinity away...and maybe even the MSB Select (I am sure there will be an A/B somewhere) then why would you then want a Trinity? Neither play DSD.....so maybe you have the Golden Gate to play those files. Maybe someone will come up with a $25,000 or less DAC that blows them all away and plays everything.....This game is changing so fast. There also might also be a server/DAC combo that lets you do everything including streaming and sounds the best and does not weigh 120lbs...he he. If you think you have the best......well, you might, for now. But shortly, your toy will become yesterdays sold item. Preamps/Amplifiers are slower changing....speaker technology is slower changing.....DACs....well it's DAC du jour!!! Spend you money wisely!.....that is what I would say. Don't take any more money to Vegas then you are willing to lose!

As far as upgradability.....well that all depends. If your upgradable DAC does not sound as good as someone else's less expensive DAC then what does it matter that it is upgradable. Do you really think your brand of DAC is always going to sound the best? Is this possible? There is no agreement on what is the best at any one time. How many people get all the most expensive DACs in their home at once and listen to them all and buy the best one for them........then 3 years later do the same thing. Never heard of such a thing. Its all a guessing game. Mike Lavine is interested in the MSB Select because one person in Asia said he "thought" it was better than the Trinity.......but said that getting the two of them in the same room at the same time would be hard. I bet Mike would love to have the MSB Select, his Trinity and the Kassandra all at his house at the same time and do serious comparisons. In fact, we would all like that. Is this ever going to happen with the politics (money) involved? Would MSB send him a DAC without knowing whether their DAC can stand up to the Kassandra or Trinity? NO, they would not. They would stand to lose a lot of money if their DAC did not come out on top.

I repeat......DAC DU JOUR......

There was a cartoon in the old Audio Magazine where this guy is sitting on a park bench with a an open brand new preamp box on his lap and he is looking down all forlorn. The caption says " Joe just realized his brand new xxxx preamp was already out of date". This cartoon is at least 20 years old. Heck, today you cannot get your new DAC box out the front door of the store without this realization......he he....enjoy your "obsolete" toys. I do.

Once Mike heard the Trinity then his old "upgradable Playback Design" thing went to where he puts "old stuff". Maybe he sold it....maybe he uses it in the bathroom....he he.

 

[Wonner Naus]

I am a fan of getting original stereo master format. If it is DSD, that is what I like to see. If it is PCM, then that is the one. This means you do need DSD and PCM playback capability.

Currently I only have a PCM DAC but my Roon software does on the fly conversion of DSD to PCM. It gives you four (?) different choices but I find the default excellent and not found a difference between that and off-line converted version. So as an interim solution, it works for me.

Note that I am not expressing any preference in formats. As I said, I like to get the native format and not have it be converted for me by the distributor.

Exactly my approach.

 

[Blizzard]

I can say that whilst the sound quality of the golden gate was the ultimate factor in my decision to purchase, the ability to be upgraded or traded with Lampizator made the value proposition far too good to be missed. I only read a thread earlier today where Lampizator are testing new ultra high quality Anamero cards, which will no doubt find their way into new products. With many companies, I would be annoyed but I merely smiled to myself and thought I wonder when I will get that done...

Would I personally spend that kind of money on a DAC with no upgrade path - honestly no.

It will be interesting to see if he's just gonna order the Amanero's from LKS in China now or what. They make a way better version with better clocks, yet OEM pricing is the same anyways. So really no brainer. But still no match for a good reclocker.

 

[asiufy]

As far as upgradability.....well that all depends. If your upgradable DAC does not sound as good as someone else's less expensive DAC then what does it matter that it is upgradable. Do you really think your brand of DAC is always going to sound the best? Is this possible? There is no agreement on what is the best at any one time. How many people get all the most expensive DACs in their home at once and listen to them all and buy the best one for them........then 3 years later do the same thing. Never heard of such a thing. Its all a guessing game. Mike Lavine is interested in the MSB Select because one person in Asia said he "thought" it was better than the Trinity.......but said that getting the two of them in the same room at the same time would be hard. I bet Mike would love to have the MSB Select, his Trinity and the Kassandra all at his house at the same time and do serious comparisons. In fact, we would all like that. Is this ever going to happen with the politics (money) involved? Would MSB send him a DAC without knowing whether their DAC can stand up to the Kassandra or Trinity? NO, they would not. They would stand to lose a lot of money if their DAC did not come out on top.

Once Mike heard the Trinity then his old "upgradable Playback Design" thing went to where he puts "old stuff". Maybe he sold it....maybe he uses it in the bathroom....he he.

Ric,

Please speak for yourself or your brands. I would have no problem to put MSB against any other DAC, and not only the SELECT. We actually had someone here in the store yesterday with an AR DAC that he loves. He took the MSB Analog DAC home. That's why my store is here. This is not a "private club", you can bring whatever you want and compare over here.

Still, I just find it odd that you're not only speaking for brands you know nothing about, you're also speaking on behalf of Mike. Just odd, really.

 

[microstrip]

IMHO many speakers become obsolete faster than DACs in terms of global sound quality. However the growth of new formats and interfaces has violently perturbed the normal appearance of new products. We often correlate obsolescence with the values in the used market and in this aspect some DACs suffer an heavy depreciation, not because of their intrinsic quality but simply because there is no space in the used market for them. Curiously high quality expensive digital equipment does not suffer an high depreciation - for sometime I was looking for an used DCS Vivaldi in Europe and never found one at bargain prices!

When I get new equipment I am not worried because of its obsolescence, but I consider seriously the immediate and long term support. Particularly with expensive equipment I look for details such as number of years in the market, who is who in the company, size of the company and quality of the staff.

 

[Ric Schultz]

Do you really think Mike would not want this? Please send him a Select DAC and maybe we can convince the Aries Cerat distributor (Joshua) to send him a Kassandra.....Yes, let's do it. It would benefit all those interested in the best if Mike were to do a A/B/C in his own house, in his own time and not with the "people who make money selling them" in the same room......yes, let's do it! Are you game? Maybe we can get DCS to send a full stack his way too.....isn't there a new $100,000 DAC from someone else too? How about the new "DAVE" Dac and this new DHT one from vujadeaudio that is suppose to be killer: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=icm8ojuu9fpe4n6k814jpbektdcpnkv5&topic=138741.0

Here is a posted quote from the DHT DAC manufacturer:

"Bill, as I demonstrate the DAC from person to person, the only question that remains is how much. That usually takes less than 60 seconds. The last few people sold there current very high priced DACs to buy mine. It took a long time to get here and nobody out there competes with what this DAC is doing. You have to experience it for yourself. Guys are selling their analog rigs and converting to digital but I just finished the phono stage for the ones who still want to pop & click! I don't want to sound like a big jerk but when ones goes out, it does not come back."

Mike, please chime in if this is something you would like.

You see, if everyone had the opportunity to listen to all the possible contenders in their own listening room in their own time then no one would ever have a sense that they have anything obsolete. They know what is the best and they buy it. Then in a few years, they do the same thing. You can go down to different car dealerships and drive different cars........but trying to A/B/C different DACs in a showroom is......well...very difficult. This is not like cars.....you need a lot of time to burn in, to find the right cables, to listen carefully to different kinds of music. Yes, a quick A/B in a showroom can be helpful but extended home trials is where you really find something out.

 

[Blizzard]

My question is really broader than the title but the Trinity seems to be a good example; What does a SOTA DAC need to have today to make the investment worth it and lasting? The Digital landscape is changing rapidly and for someone looking to invest $30K+ (in some cases much more)....I am interested in everyone's feedback as to what are the "must-have" specs. Do you have to have DSD capability? That would rule out all DACs with BB 1704 chips which is one of my favorites. Do you need Ethernet connection? The industry seems to be moving towards this as the connection of choice for best performance. The Trinity and some other high performance DACs have neither. Will things like Roon and Tidal change the way we interact with digital content. Can you really have a DAC that optimizes for both PCM (multi-bit) and DSD (single-bit). Or do we really need to have individual units specialized for a particular format.

What do some of you think the landscape will look like in 2-3 years. Will manufactures continue to invest in proprietary GUI platforms or will Roon or others become the norm. Will we stream from providers like Tidal more than invest in adding to our library. Do products like the Merging_Nadac make progress with their ethernet interface and control platform and set a new bar of performance. Are the companies that don't rely on off-the-shelf chips better positioned?

This thread is not about the SQ of the Trinity or any other DAC (although SQ is my most critical consideration set)....that is covered in other threads...just curious as to the consideration set people are using when purchasing a SOTA DAC today without filling burned 2-3 years down the road. I am a little worried that for the next few years we are all going to be "beta" users as the landscape changes. Thoughts?

My opinion is Ravenna is the best interface tech out there today. It rolls all the best attributes of Ethernet, and USB into one. Once OEM's get their hands on a new OEM Ravenna based board that's in the works, it's going to obsolete the need to use USB. These will be the DAC's to buy as they will not only be using the best interface yet, they will also be in a modular form factor for easy upgradability.


There's no doubt that online streaming is going to be the #1 source of music in the future, even for high end aficionados. This is just the way the world is going. there's also a pile of companies working hard on the next gen cutting edge compression algorithms (like MQA), to make it possible for the highest resolution files to easily be streamed with minimal bandwidth. I just had a meeting with a few of these guys last week. In order for DSD to really take off, we need to have mainstream multibit DSD editing capabilities. 2016 will be the the year we see this introduced. So don't ever think DSD is going to die off.

After hearing how good PCM can sound using the latest cutting edge SDM/SRC software such as HQplayer converting on the fly to DSD, my take is I'd put more weight on a DAC that excels with DSD rather than PCM. They can be built much simpler, for less cost, and higher quality components compared to a DAC with onboard PCM decoding capabilities. DSD converted to PCM on the other hand is a much lossier process. I've never heard it sound good. Even with HQplayer, which uses the best algorithms in the business.

 

[Ric Schultz]

Bliz,
I hope you are right about the upsampled PCM to DSD thang. If it can equal or beat the R2R super DACs, then we can all have a very inexpensive DAC and not worry so much about upgrading. However, from what I read many people still prefer PCM thought there super PCM machines than upsampled to DSD. We are just in the beginning of this so there is much to learn and develop.
Good Post Bliz

 

[Blizzard]

Bliz,
I hope you are right about the upsampled PCM to DSD thang. If it can equal or beat the R2R super DACs, then we can all have a very inexpensive DAC and not worry so much about upgrading. However, from what I read many people still prefer PCM thought there super PCM machines than upsampled to DSD. We are just in the beginning of this so there is much to learn and develop.
Good Post Bliz

Well it seems that most people who have chipless DSD dac's simply haven't tried HQplayer used in the best way possible, upsampling all PCM to DSD 256+. To get the best out of it you either need to use their NAA system, with a small form factor low noise computer. Or a protocol like Ravenna. It makes a huge difference over simply connecting the server computer doing the heavy lifting, direct to the DAC via USB.

I'm doing this currently with a state of the art chipless DSD DAC, and it's simply the best PCM I've ever heard. I would love to compare it with a $30000+ R2R.

 

[NorthStar]

Mike, have you heard about the Trinity DAC; its internals, multiple DACs implementation, its unique design approach?

 

[Blizzard]

Mike, have you heard about the Trinity DAC; its internals, multiple DACs implementation, its unique design approach?

Yes sounds like a cool design. I would love to hear how it stacks up with PCM compared to my chipless DSD DAC/HQplayer combo.

 

[NorthStar]

Yes sounds like a cool design. I would love to hear how it stacks up with PCM compared to my chipless DSD DAC/HQplayer combo.

Here's inside the Trinity DAC (LIANOTEC / DAC); 8 DACs per channel:
? http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?12023-Trinity-DAC&p=237895&viewfull=1#post237895

30 grands.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Do you really think Mike would not want this? Please send him a Select DAC and maybe we can convince the Aries Cerat distributor (Joshua) to send him a Kassandra.....Yes, let's do it. It would benefit all those interested in the best if Mike were to do a A/B/C in his own house, in his own time and not with the "people who make money selling them" in the same room......yes, let's do it! Are you game? Maybe we can get DCS to send a full stack his way too.....isn't there a new $100,000 DAC from someone else too? How about the new "DAVE" Dac and this new DHT one from vujadeaudio that is suppose to be killer: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=icm8ojuu9fpe4n6k814jpbektdcpnkv5&topic=138741.0

Mike, please chime in if this is something you would like.

well. we can all come up with 'dream' scenarios. and if however unlikely, the principles with these 'uber' dacs wanted to play that game I'd offer my system as a landing spot. it would not be the first shootout I've hosted.

but I'm really a happy camper right now with my digital and my interest in the MSB Select is more curiosity than desire. and I've said that to Alex. sure; if it were convenient to hear the MSB or especially to compare it to my Trinity and GG I would do it. and if it blew me away something on my side might change.

I bought my Trinity used and got a reasonably good deal; so I view my 2 dac combo as offering me a good value and tip top performance. both of these machines are superb.

as far as all this talk about the Trinity being outdated that is funny. what percentage of music out there is either redbook or PCM sourced? and how soon might that change? and it's about listening to actual real music, not some theory. that's PCM.

and who says that Deitmar might not offer an upgrade to the Trinity at some point if there is a reason to do so. it's not like he has 50 of these sitting there. he can only make 3 a month and he is back-ordered. and assumptions that this or that thing will automagically take the Trinity to another level are simply conjecture, nothing more.

people need to actually hear what the Trinity can do on redbook or hirez PCM......I'm assuming the MSB Select can do these things too.

let me know when we don't live in a PCM based world. not likely in my lifetime. and sitting here comparing the Trinity to my analog vinyl and tape I have a pretty good idea of the potential of what is possible. will the MSB Select, or 'insert name of challenger', possibly better the Trinity. my guess is that for the foreseeable future.......no. maybe the same or different. and if it is better i'll tip my hat and go listen some more. I've listened to native Quad dsd next to the Trinity too.

OTOH everything digital has a shelf life.....everything.

You see, if everyone had the opportunity to listen to all the possible contenders in their own listening room in their own time then no one would ever have a sense that they have anything obsolete. They know what is the best and they buy it. Then in a few years, they do the same thing. You can go down to different car dealerships and drive different cars........but trying to A/B/C different DACs in a showroom is......well...very difficult. This is not like cars.....you need a lot of time to burn in, to find the right cables, to listen carefully to different kinds of music. Yes, a quick A/B in a showroom can be helpful but extended home trials is where you really find something out.

I do agree that a true comparison at the top of the food chain is a tedious process and needs a mature dialed in system. I recall the few years of Durand tone arm trials in my room and all the various versions that were trialed. listening for metallurgical differences between otherwise identical tone arms does prepare you. it was a very educational discovery process. not trivial.

we read about shootouts of various types and mostly we read about how the next try at the shootout will be more organized and more variables will be eliminated. too bad we did not come away with more usable data?

 

[Blizzard]

Here's inside the Trinity DAC (LIANOTEC / DAC); 8 DACs per channel:
? http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?12023-Trinity-DAC&p=237895&viewfull=1#post237895

30 grands.

Yes I read all about it. Look at that mess of standard IDC cable connecting all the modules. I wonder if this would pass Amir approval as far as connector resistance, and noise/radiation is concerned? considering the Resonessence Lab's Mirus's quality gold plated beryllium copper direct to board connections raised a concern.


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[NorthStar]

The DACs used in the Trinity are the PCM1704.

? http://www.audiotechnique.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/trinity_dac_eng.pdf