Zero Distortion: Leif's System with TAD 4003 based dual FLH

[Ovenmitt]

Right now you should be like Graham and get excited about rolling each driver in each horn. Gradually you will get more focused and morph into a Tao.

Since I have been going through a want to build phase, and discussing with builders, I will share the following:
First, you need to decide what design you want, i.e. front loaded, back loaded, downward firing, small one woofer, large two woofer, etc. Given your big room I would recommend my choice: dual woofer front loaded horns, unless you want to maintain at same size as your current duos.

Once you decide the design, you have to decide the driver. You will never be able to decide on one, so the thing is group similar drivers and roll them, i.e. similar size drivers with the same impedance that can be crossed over at the same point with minor adjustments. So Leif could, for example, swap JBL or Altec or Radian with his TAD if he wanted to (well he has already tried many). Bill's design is different and while he cannot use TAD or Radian without adjusting his crossover point, other drivers like BMS, Lowther, are similar to AER in that regard at the same crossover point (though the AER is vastly superior).

So which design or driver should you start with? Well, the one you like and have heard, and the one you can get crossovers for. If you start doing the whole build yourself from the beginning based on theory, you might be lost forever. My suggestion is to assemble a proven design first, and then learn how to tweak crossovers etc so you always have a reference to come back to. For me the Altec 817 or Leif's can be assembled, and then I could roll drivers if I wanted to. I was more focused on Beryllium anyway, so when I got TAD 4003 I bought it, and I had educated confirmation it was the best. The other drivers are more easily available and can be bought any time. That said, if I bought a , for example, JBL 2482 (phenolic), I wouldn't know what to do with it since I haven't heard a good speaker with that driver yet, though I am sure you can fit it into Leif's design with a JBL tweeter adjusting crossover points slightly.

When you investigate drivers and designs you will see some horns go with certain drivers, e.g. Radial and JMLC with TAD types, additionally wooden multicells as well, and then tractrix especially for lower crossover points. Your crossover at approx. 2 times the cutoff for your horn.

As an example
Crossover: Altec 817 is 500 hz, Leif's 550.
Horn needs to be a approx 250 - 300 hz cutoff frequency to account for the above two crossovers. Can try radial, multicell, or JMLC with that cutoff
Below that dual woofers.
Decide on lower bass - with Altec 817 the vents in the midbass horn take over, with Leif's you need an additional big lower bass solution. Think about your room and visuals.
Start with keep things simple. Start with two way, check if you need tweeter, and add lower bass active. Some people believe in two way, some are willing to do more. If you get into building you will want to keep trying so might as well know where you can start and what you can roll. No one sits still in this hobby. At the same time, don't make the mistake of just building without a reference sound to get to

Great advice Ked.... thanks!

 

[hvbias]

How does the system sound playing small scale solo instrument recordings; for instance Nathan Milstein playing JS Bach's Partitas and Sonatas, or similar type of solo violin pieces? Does the violin sound like it is 20 feet large or does it sound like an appropriate scale given accurately portraying how it was mic'd?

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

in my opion the scaling is not exaggerated or blown out of proportions...

 

[bonzo75]

How does the system sound playing small scale solo instrument recordings; for instance Nathan Milstein playing JS Bach's Partitas and Sonatas, or similar type of solo violin pieces? Does the violin sound like it is 20 feet large or does it sound like an appropriate scale given accurately portraying how it was mic'd?

No In the videos I have played some small scale as well as Beethoven 9th. Tads are very transparent to recordings and it changes based on the LP

 

[Tango]

in my opion the scaling is not exaggerated or blown out of proportions...

My Cessaro has TAD drivers. I do not get an expanded sound like some diy horns and conventional speakers I heard. On Keith Jarrett Koen Concert, I heard from quite a few systems the piano is almost like you put your head in the housing. With TADs sometime I feel the sound is even narrow. Some time it goes beyond the walls without the feeling of zoom in. You have loads of experience on different drivers and horn types. Is this scaling that you find not blown out of proportion more a trait of TAD or how the horn was designed?

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

I think it´s a combo of physical layout, filter design, drivers and room
time alignment, phase respons and impuls respons I guess are of the essense, whatever drivers
not sure how much drivers contribute, but more "perfect" driver /horn combos might make it easier to accomplish
not sure you have the same TAD drivers as I do in mid, or even upper mid in your system

 

[bonzo75]

I think it´s a combo of physical layout, filter design, drivers and room
time alignment, phase respons and impuls respons I guess are of the essense, whatever drivers
not sure how much drivers contribute, but more "perfect" driver /horn combos might make it easier to accomplish
not sure you have the same TAD drivers as I do in mid, or even upper mid in your system

He has 4001+2001+703

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

thought so and I think he´d elevate his system to a new dimension by modifying to 4003 and 2002, which are totally different animals, but it´d had to be done by someone who knew wat he was doing

 

[kodomo]

changing from 4001 to 4003 would need a new throat adapter at the least for the horn and maybe small additional xo changes...

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

I had CNC´d aluminium adapters for mine...no problem.....not very expensive either
the 4003 on the other hand is both expensive and not that simple to find nowadays

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I think it´s a combo of physical layout, filter design, drivers and room
time alignment, phase respons and impuls respons I guess are of the essense, whatever drivers
not sure how much drivers contribute, but more "perfect" driver /horn combos might make it easier to accomplish
not sure you have the same TAD drivers as I do in mid, or even upper mid in your system

Totally agree, Leif. It is not the sole attribute of the driver choice as you say.

On another note, I was listening to my dad play for around half a day a couple of weekends back. All solo on a Mason & Hamlin grand in his room of ~ 23’ x 18’ x 10’ - playing Bach, Debussy, Chopin, Ravel. At no point did the sound ever come from a narrow view or very precise location. The piano pressurises the whole room with especially lower registers (as expected) washing into the room. Clearly this is different than a concert hall where localising is more relevant in the recording not least because of mic placements but also the perceived size of the stage - anyway my point being that the recording is most important here too.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

yes often live sound pressurises the room like you say and it floats around the entire room
I think soundstage precision and pinpointing qualities are some of the least interesting features of a system to create a lifelike experience
in my world it´s dynamics, harmonics, speed, tonality, transparency
this requires low noise, headroom, substantial low end cone area and no dead end live end room or dsp for that matter

 

[bonzo75]

Sometimes based on the questions I wonder if people think instruments sound the same size as they look. For example, violin should sound small because it is so tiny in his hands

 

[Tango]

I had CNC´d aluminium adapters for mine...no problem.....not very expensive either
the 4003 on the other hand is both expensive and not that simple to find nowadays

It is no problem finding. Ked has a pair. He never gonna use it.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

It is no problem finding. Ked has a pair. He never gonna use it.

I was waiting for that pair lol

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

ready for auction guys....

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

It is no problem finding. Ked has a pair. He never gonna use it.

I can get you CNC´d adapters like mine if the need occurs

 

[bonzo75]

Leif's system with the studer CD player into the DDDAC with 25 kg choke psu is sounding brilliant

 

[Tango]

Leif's system with the studer CD player into the DDDAC with 25 kg choke psu is sounding brilliant

For old ears.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

mine or yours ?