Zero Distortion Digital Dangal: Jazzhead's System - Neodio Origine, Trinity, Aqua Formula, Stahltek

[bonzo75]

this is very easy. Ask Jazzhead to borrow his friend's aqua transport and see whether the findings hold true.

 

[Jazzhead]

It must be reiterated , that the Stahl Tek DAC was being played after a gap of a little over one year . Although it was warmed up. ,am sure it will loosen and relax with further playing time . The Formula , I have heard in another system with Pass Labs amplification and Kaiser Kawero speakers . There is an inherent leanness in its presentation , which mostly will not appeal to a tube lover looking for bloom and mid bass fullness . Regarding Mike's review on the Formula , it was almost exclusively when paired with the SGM and not so much the matching transport . Up sampling to dxd via the SGM most likely played to its strengths and also given his superior room produced what he was hearing . Given a more compromised room , I need a touch of the supernatural (read:Mooks) to give me that performance bump.

 

[the sound of Tao]

^ Adding the mooks for “a touch of the supernatural...” magic stuff Jazz, using mooks for spooks is my kind of deeper and darker audio science absolutely, enjoy but don’t forget to exorcise regularly for additional safety.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I’m glad to be contributing to Arshad’s future digital enjoyment by providing his Mooks.
The Neodio is always a brand I was interested in, good to hear it was sounding so positive.

 

[LL21]

Congrats on the voyage of discovery! Very exciting!

Speaking of discovery, were you one of those looking at the new Zanden 3000 Mk II preamp? I heard it is insanely good. Whereas a number had told me they preferred original CJ GAT to original Zanden Ref (and Koda 15 as well)...I read someone say an owner of CJ GAT 2 prefers the Zanden 3000 Mk II.

It must be reiterated , that the Stahl Tek DAC was being played after a gap of a little over one year . Although it was warmed up. ,am sure it will loosen and relax with further playing time . The Formula , I have heard in another system with Pass Labs amplification and Kaiser Kawero speakers . There is an inherent leanness in its presentation , which mostly will not appeal to a tube lover looking for bloom and mid bass fullness . Regarding Mike's review on the Formula , it was almost exclusively when paired with the SGM and not so much the matching transport . Up sampling to dxd via the SGM most likely played to its strengths and also given his superior room produced what he was hearing . Given a more compromised room , I need a touch of the supernatural (read:Mooks) to give me that performance bump.

 

[Simone]

@ Jazzhead: do you have any current experiences with other cd-transports /-drives than with your stahl tec ? If yes, it would be very interesting how much it influence the sound in general ?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Simone, there’s not exactly a plethora of truly top class transports out there. The best ones seem to be the JMF and Wadax models, both North of €35k.

 

[bonzo75]

Simone, there’s not exactly a plethora of truly top class transports out there. The best ones seem to be the JMF and Wadax models, both North of €35k.

Same price as Stahltek

 

[Simone]

Simone, there’s not exactly a plethora of truly top class transports out there. The best ones seem to be the JMF and Wadax models, both North of €35k.

Thank you for quick answering. I'm honest: never heard both of them
Living voice is always presenting their set up on the high end Exhibition Munich with the biggest cd-drive of C.E.C. and Neodio Origine. Both are sounding fantastic. The best CD-Sound I have ever heard.
The prices are all not in my league. So I'm thinking about the Auqa Audio Transport, smaller C.E.C. or the one from B.M.C. ?
Maybe someone has experiences with those ones.

 

[microstrip]

@ Jazzhead: do you have any current experiences with other cd-transports /-drives than with your stahl tec ? If yes, it would be very interesting how much it influence the sound in general ?

It is not only the transport, the AES/EBU cables and power cables also strongly influence sound quality. I have four types of digital cables (Transparent Reference XL , Kimber KS2120 , Madrigal and Moghami) and they sound very different.

 

[microstrip]

Actually, your assessment is incorrect. To start with,
1. one of those dacs assessed with digititis is the most compatible of the whole bunch, i.e. it is the Stahltek transport + dac combo

2. Do you know any digital shootout that is done with all possible transports present to get best possible transport + dac results with each combo? I don't. You start with some data points and keep adding on.

3. The fact that Neodio will always have a transport advantage because it is an all in one could possibly be a reason for its superiority but it will always be the case for Neodio vs a stand alone dac.

4. If the system was tuned to Neodio and Neodio was better, your point was valid. As already emphasized in the report, the system was tuned to Trinity, not Neodio. Before Trinity it was tuned to Stahltek. Jazzhead owns all these and has had them for months in his system.
4a. It is true that many owners still have synergy issues. Especially with analog and speakers like Apogees, where owners don't always set up their stuff correctly, nor do professional reviewers who have it for less time. So the worst you could actually do is listen to it only in one system, whether for one hour or for one year - this process is meant to over time give impressions in various systems to eliminate synergy issues, e.g. Koetsu was done across 5 systems and it sounded good only in Shakti's, completely different from the others. Listening is not difficult - and set up is what takes time, can be flawed in every system
4b. This process, as noted, will also give impressions with Zanden electronics, so you will have impressions with SS gear and valve gear. Transports won't be changed, but someone else can do that to confirm. Jazzhead himself has access to two local Aqua transports, but I doubt after listening to the delta of the Neodio, he would be interested in trying.

Again you focus on the narrative and facts - that I enjoyed - and ignore my main argument : the permanently shown objective of ranking and the shootout itself. IMHO it is why digital shootouts carried in such conditions are not the proper way of evaluating or listening to equipment.

I agree with you that if we do not have the opportunity or conditions to get the best of a DAC, an integrated player such as the Neodio can be the best choice.

And again, IMHO "digititis" in such high quality digital systems is due to set up, system or even room mismatch.

 

[bonzo75]

I disagree. Most digital components have digititis, hence the word. There are very few that don't have it, and they are called analog

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ked, you really need to hear the Eera Tentation a third time after my old apartment and that Animas/Cerat demo in Paris.
There is not an iota of digititis to be had. Then again, my digital via the Eera has REALLY responded to balanced power, having an isolated line, top class Sablon Reserva and Elite cabling, and being on a Stacore Adv. If you speak to JackD201, he’ll vouch for how mellifluous, agile, and tonally discriminating the Tentation is.
It seems like the Origine is too.

 

[microstrip]

I disagree. Most digital components have digititis, hence the word. There are very few that don't have it, and they are called analog

There was a time I also though so. But experience though me that I was wrong ...

 

[spiritofmusic]

+1 Francisco.
I’ve had ongoing listening time at Blue58/Barry with a very well set up SGM/T&A Dac8, going to 512dsd, with the very latest SGM updates and filters, and soon to hear this with Barry’s new Java Triple Shot Optologic preamp in the chain.
Not one moment that is edgy or terse.
Now if we’re saying digital can’t quite do what analog does, that’s another matter, and a well worn argument still running after 35 years.
But my first exposure to “non digititis” digital was in late 80s via the Marantz CD12/DA12 combination, evident thru the 90s and 00s w great digital like Linn CD12, Audiomeca Mephisto, AMR and Reimyo (all of which I demoed at home), owning for a while of Emm Labs CDSA SE and culminating in my personal l/t ownership of Eera, taken to another level by extreme attention to power and vibration management, and at Blue58’s SGM/T&A via very careful room and system setup.
Arshad is loving his Origine, Mike is getting stellar results w his MSB 3 box, people are loving their Ares Cerat dacs, people absolutely swear by the non fatigueing nature of APL, I’ve heard Loit valve based cdp sound great at Alternative Audion I’m sure the list goes on.
No mention of digititis w these.

 

[Uk Paul / Z:Axis Audio]

Ked, you really need to hear the Eera Tentation a third time after my old apartment and that Animas/Cerat demo in Paris.
There is not an iota of digititis to be had. Then again, my digital via the Eera has REALLY responded to balanced power, having an isolated line, top class Sablon Reserva and Elite cabling, and being on a Stacore Adv. If you speak to JackD201, he’ll vouch for how mellifluous, agile, and tonally discriminating the Tentation is.
It seems like the Origine is too.

Marc,

For digital to excel, balanced power is in my experience essential, and i am 100% certain that the sound you are getting from the relatively modest compared to some EERA is down to how the balanced mains config deals with reactive current that digital gear dumps on AC mains. The upgrade is significant with digital, as I'm sure Mike L can atest too. (However, it wont make a bad room sound good though). Your new place is letting everything breathe..

 

[spiritofmusic]

You’re spot on Paul. I already had balanced power installed in 2013 when I demoed the Tentation, and so it was at an advantage, although my Emm Labs CDSA SE at the time was also running off balanced too, so the Eera was still the better product inherently.
I think the best way to read Ked’s findings are as a series of interesting discoveries, in effect a set of flavours. I’m not sure anything objective can be derived.
I’ve heard Lampi sound good twice now, and also v poor, the poor and good experiences at different times with different speakers at the same place. What I derive is that I can’t read too much into my own experiences. For me to conclude more, the Lampi would have to be in my system, in a sound that I both know very well and coincidentally continues to pleasantly surprise me.

 

[bonzo75]

Which is the wing way to go about it, listening to it in your own system. The best way to listen to Lampi (or apogee or koetsu) is to hear different implementations and try to recreate the best you have heard in your system. It is very easy to demo something in your system and get it to sound bad, in which case it does not tell you anything. If you listen to apogee in your room with your Nat and it does not sound good, it does not tell you anything about apogee except that they cannot be driven by Nat.

 

[spiritofmusic]

And so Lampi in 3 different systems, two effectively the same except for spkrs.
One I couldn’t run fast enough out of the room (you loved it that day), most recent one ok, but still not quite my cuppa, one being a lesser model in a totally unfamiliar system plagued by laptop-itis tizziness, sounding pretty compelling. Effectively I get nothing conclusive from these trials re Lampi other than some suspicion it’s not for me.
Only by hearing it here in a system I know intimately can I really judge the component.
This is a bit OT, obviously my thoughts on listening at others is irrelevant to your compare of these Dacs.

 

[bonzo75]

That's because you never compared properly anywhere, and you don't let me come over to yours to do a proper one