ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458

[ack]

the credibility of my perceptions about these amps continue to be marginalized by people questioning my system compatibility and synergy. and I see it exactly the opposite. I feel you will never hear the ML3's sound better than how they sound in my system. and the same with the big VAC's.

Mike, I've been skimming through this thread on and off, and this caught my eye. You are not known for generalizations, so let me ask a direct question: with the ML3s, do you think your system renders better sound than Steve's with his full-Lamm approach? Your comment seems to allude to that (among other things).

 

[Ron Resnick]

Mike, perhaps your opinion of the Dart is influenced by the mix in which it finds itself. IOW, with other gear and in another room, your opinion may change toward the tube amp(s) and away from the Dart amps. It could be that your EA speakers are more ss friendly than tube friendly; which would actually make some sense to me. OTOH, maybe you simply prefer the 'flavor' that a great ss amp brings to the mix vs. a great tube amp. ( which BTW there is absolutely nothing wrong with, it's all good). It is great to have the option of changing the flavor whenever you so desire, which I why I also have both a ss amp and a tube amp.

I had an amazing time with Mike, and I am very grateful for his time and patience and warmth, and I am very thankful for Mike’s and Pam’s graciousness and hospitality and friendship.

I am not going to pre-empt my piece, which I have yet to begin writing, as I am traveling this week, and as I process the many things I heard and learned at Mike’s. All I will write now, Davey, is that you are shooting in the dark.

Suffice it to say, generally, that Mike has been more correct, and many others have been more incorrect, than I previously assumed. Suffice it to say, specifically, that the 458 has no “flavor” I could detect. On a piece which makes it easy to hear what Mike has been posting about for ages I now understand what Mike has been writing.

I am one of the first people to criticize anything I hear from solid-state amps which I do not like. I have spent my whole life not hearing a solid-state amp I could live with (the Vitus being a possible exception).

The darTZeel 458 does not exhibit any solid-state signature or solid-state “nasty” I could detect. Again, it does not exhibit any “flavor” I could detect. I think I finally understand what “colorless” means with respect to amplifiers because I think I finally heard an amplifier example of “colorless.” The 458 does not sound solid-state; it does not sound like anything. The only artifact I could hear is that the 458 sounds a shade or maybe two shades “dry” compared to the tube amplifiers.

The visit raised a monumental question and possibly a shattering doubt about much of what we do and think and hear and conclude in this hobby. I have to decide if I even want to go there in writing.

I am now going radio-silent on all other thoughts from the visit, until I process my thoughts and I begin to write next week. This will take quite some time.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, I've been skimming through this thread on and off, and this caught my eye. You are not known for generalizations, so let me ask a direct question: with the ML3s, do you think your system renders better sound than Steve's with his full-Lamm approach? Your comment seems to allude to that (among other things).

I think this is a slippery slope. since it's mostly a system, and not an amp question. I will say I personally prefer my system with ML3's to Steve's with ML3's. and I would expect Steve would understandably say exactly the opposite. and neither comment would be surprising or should offend anyone.

but these comments would be more about everything but the ML3's, than the ML3's.

I will say that objectively that my speaker's approach to bass integration does offer objective advantages in amp load and low frequency extension and authority, and that these things make a not trivial difference.

I think that is all I have to say about that......except that I've completely enjoyed both visits to Steve's room and listening to his wonderful system.

 

[bonzo75]

Ron, this sentence of yours "Suffice it to say, generally, that Mike has been more correct, and many others have been more incorrect, than I previously assumed.", applies to me too, before and after my visit to Mike's, and will apply to everyone who visits Mike. That's because people cannot extrapolate their previous experiences to understand this system without listening to it, so actually I understand what they say when they think it is another sterile state system with just another guy throwing loads of money at gear.

 

[KeithR]

the credibility of my perceptions about these amps continue to be marginalized by people questioning my system compatibility and synergy. and I see it exactly the opposite. I feel you will never hear the ML3's sound better than how they sound in my system. and the same with the big VAC's.

with all due respect Mike, all you can really say is that in your room/system these conclusions can be made. to infer what other grand rooms can do with other speakers and amps is speculation (and OT).

sounds like you guys had a fun weekend - congrats!

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ok, Mike, another q to hopefully keep the thread interesting and not irk you too much .
On the music that the Lamms seem somewhat more favourable than the Darts, why?
I mean if the Darts are truly beyond neutral, super transparent, as uncoloured as they come, why don’t they suit vocals, intimate small scale music, as much as the Lamms, or indeed even here maintain the advantage over tubes that they do on bigger scale stuff?
Surely the world’s most invisible amp should satisfy more on Diana Krall than tubes just as they absolutely seem to do on full tilt orchestral?

 

[bonzo75]

I have never heard vocals like at Mike's. Scintilla, grands, and Zellaton, all driven by SS were as good.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Mike has a standalone room purpose fully built for audio which makes huge difference.
An impedance graph would be interesting afaic

 

[Mike Lavigne]

with all due respect Mike, all you can really say is that in your room/system these conclusions can be made. to infer what other grand rooms can do with other speakers and amps is speculation (and OT).

sounds like you guys had a fun weekend - congrats!

Keith, of course you are correct. which is why I say "I feel" and not "it is".

 

[Tango]

Suffice it to say, generally, that Mike has been more correct, and many others have been more incorrect, than I previously assumed. Suffice it to say, specifically, that the 458 has no “flavor” I could detect...

The darTZeel 458 does not exhibit any solid-state signature or solid-state “nasty” I could detect. Again, it does not exhibit any “flavor” I could detect. I think I finally understand what “colorless” means with respect to amplifiers because I think I finally heard an amplifier example of “colorless.” The 458 does not sound solid-state; it does not sound like anything. The only artifact I could hear is that the 458 sounds a shade or maybe two shades “dry” compared to the tube amplifiers.

Dear Ron,

How did you arrive to the conclusion that the amps are colorless? How do you know that the other two amps add color to the music and not the Dartz decloring the music. In my opinion, music is colorful. Why do you think that the musical color the Lamm or VAC presents are "color added" and not the natural color of the music itself. Or do you find the color of real instrument is more alike what comes out of Dartz. And what come out of the other two is just too nice to be real.

I ask just because I am just curious of the process and want to get better at analytical listening. I dont really care about deciding which amps has more strengths or weaknesses or defending any amp.

Your sincerely,
Tang

 

[spiritofmusic]

Well, Ked is adamant that attending live unamplified is the best (only?) way to gauge a whole series of audiophile terms when it comes to describing gear, and making good choices.
I don’t think Mike goes to that much live classical, although I might be wrong.
He must have another way to determine if the Darts are colourless.
Of course, had he been running Lamms w his EAs from the start, and had the Darts on trial, would he be saying the Darts sound drier, more bleached, less strong etc etc.
My point is our terminology comes out of our experience, it’s not an objective truth.
I know that must be stating the bleeding obvious LOL.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I had an amazing time with Mike, and I am very grateful for his time and patience and warmth, and I am very thankful for Mike’s and Pam’s graciousness and hospitality and friendship.

Ron, I likewise had a wonderful time listening and hanging with you and really enjoyed our discussions. it was 2 great days of the best that our hobby can be. and Pam and I also enjoyed the too brief listening with you and Tinka, your friend Menno, and then our very fun dinner together.

travel safe and I look forward to your take on things when you have the time.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Well, Ked is adamant that attending live unamplified is the best (only?) way to gauge a whole series of audiophile terms when it comes to describing gear, and making good choices.
I don’t think Mike goes to that much live classical, although I might be wrong.
He must have another way to determine if the Darts are colourless.
Of course, had he been running Lamms w his EAs from the start, and had the Darts on trial, would he be saying the Darts sound drier, more bleached, less strong etc etc.
My point is our terminology comes out of our experience, it’s not an objective truth.
I know that must be stating the bleeding obvious LOL.

Ron,

now see what you've done. you used the word 'dryer' and 'colorless' relative to the obviously excessively liquid tube amps, and now Marc has taken it and now morphed it into 'more bleached'. and now someone will pick up on that and.........

jeeez!

we have to be careful with dangerous words around the children.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mike, the Proletariat is probably a better description for us great unwashed masses.
Or, we’re all children, but you have best access to the biggest toys in the playroom.
And I do believe you may very well have used the word “drier” too had you come to the Darts several years after running Lamms on EAs in a parallel dimension.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Dear Ron,

How did you arrive to the conclusion that the amps are colorless? How do you know that the other two amps add color to the music and not the Dartz decloring the music. In my opinion, music is colorful. Why do you think that the musical color the Lamm or VAC presents are "color added" and not the natural color of the music itself. Or do you find the color of real instrument is more alike what comes out of Dartz. And what come out of the other two is just too nice to be real.

I ask just because I am just curious of the process and want to get better at analytical listening. I dont really care about deciding which amps has more strengths or weaknesses or defending any amp.

Your sincerely,
Tang

Dear Tang,

although I feel/think I know what (tube loving) Ron is referring to, the last words I would use would be 'dryer' or 'colorless' when referring to the dart 458's. I'm sure your friend Boony would not use those words either when comparing the dart 458's to the CH Precision M1.

but OTOH I don't want to speak for Ron, so I will let Ron get into what he means.

and when an amp is a clear conduit for 'just music' then it is a fully fleshed out, alive, vibrant, colorful thing in the best sense. we agree on that.

best regards,

Mike

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mike, that sounds great, indeed yr description w the added benefit of Darts power headroom/synergy w EAs/sub bass towers, sounds like the Darts should broach no rival, even at lower levels/w less challenging music.
Darts “fully fleshed out, alive, vibrant, colourful”, well that sounds also like the best of tubes.
I’m unsure why then, tubes would have any advantage on smaller scale stuff for you to even want to choose not to use the Darts.
Unless it’s purely an “alternative taste” thing ie the Lamms are no more fully fleshed out, alive, colourful and vibrant than the Darts, just a different quality of said attributes.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

We enter the extremely subjective field, where there are no references except our enjoyment. This type of music at warp 9 with the NHB458 probably means you were listening at levels louder that the conductor, watts do not lie ...

My best experience with NH458 was long ago with the Magico M5 listening to Beethoven concertos in a large room in an old building - plenty of wood and plaster walls - listening louder than life. We could listen to the texture of strings and the organization of instrument sections like if we were seeing the movement of players in front of us. However, the medium of the Magico broke at the end of the day ...

I also sometimes do it in my system, particularly with friends, but for short time - 400 watts peak with 94 dB/W large speakers is loud! It is impressive, but I can not say it is real. However, it feeds our soul, as people say.

It is known that recording professionals listen loud just to get all the information. If you really like to keep this possibility and peaks over 1kW, you really need high quality SS power.

Micro,

I know you are not saying that the dart 458's are a one trick 'high power' pony, but it is inferred by what you write. and you might even think that way.

and my opinion is that the magic of the big darts is that they can do it all, from the first watt on intimate music to confidently soaring when called upon......and further I think that it's that ability to maintain it's nuance and delicacy when pushed, is.......what makes it such an amazing amplifier. and yes, when listening in a group that big music can have a special, physical, collective, emotional content......and can be a transformative event. no doubt. and I love that part and refuse to compromise on it.

no compromises.

 

[DaveyF]

I had an amazing time with Mike, and I am very grateful for his time and patience and warmth, and I am very thankful for Mike’s and Pam’s graciousness and hospitality and friendship.

I am not going to pre-empt my piece, which I have yet to begin writing, as I am traveling this week, and as I process the many things I heard and learned at Mike’s. All I will write now, Davey, is that you are shooting in the dark.

Suffice it to say, generally, that Mike has been more correct, and many others have been more incorrect, than I previously assumed. Suffice it to say, specifically, that the 458 has no “flavor” I could detect. On a piece which makes it easy to hear what Mike has been posting about for ages I now understand what Mike has been writing.

I am one of the first people to criticize anything I hear from solid-state amps which I do not like. I have spent my whole life not hearing a solid-state amp I could live with (the Vitus being a possible exception).

The darTZeel 458 does not exhibit any solid-state signature or solid-state “nasty” I could detect. Again, it does not exhibit any “flavor” I could detect. I think I finally understand what “colorless” means with respect to amplifiers because I think I finally heard an amplifier example of “colorless.” The 458 does not sound solid-state; it does not sound like anything. The only artifact I could hear is that the 458 sounds a shade or maybe two shades “dry” compared to the tube amplifiers.

The visit raised a monumental question and possibly a shattering doubt about much of what we do and think and hear and conclude in this hobby. I have to decide if I even want to go there in writing.

I am now going radio-silent on all other thoughts from the visit, until I process my thoughts and I begin to write next week. This will take quite some time.

"Shooting in the dark" at what?? While you may well be right that the Dart's have no perceptive 'flavor' with Mike's speakers, that may or may not apply with a different speaker and/or load characteristic. Same thing applies to the VAC's and the Lamm's. Unless, that is, you believe that all amps and all speakers react the same- one to the other. IME and IMO,all gear has a 'flavor' in relation to the 'real' ( Unless you believe that a certain piece of gear is in fact"perfect" and cannot be improved upon), the question then becomes whether or not one has the ability ( or inclination) to actually hear/recognize it. Again,IMHO.

 

[bonzo75]

Tang, music is colored, but by not coloring the music, all the musical color from the recordings flow through. When other people try this stunt, it often lacks the musical color and sounds bleached, and if you shift to a valve amp, you will get nice decay and musical colors. It is the level the others play at and the one Mike plays at that causes this "gap"in communication.

The objective of my trip to Seattle was not Mike. It was to listen to apogee full ranges on Nat. Mike was secondary. Sterile state guy with fancy colored toys, been there, heard that before. It totally turned upside down my frame of thinking. Btw, Jazzhead now has a very good small room SS system, thanks to mooks

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, the Proletariat is probably a better description for us great unwashed masses.
Or, we’re all children, but you have best access to the biggest toys in the playroom.
And I do believe you may very well have used the word “drier” too had you come to the Darts several years after running Lamms on EAs in a parallel dimension.

no. the word 'drier' would not come out of my mouth or appear on a post relative to the darts. cuz how the world wide web works. it makes you regret what you said/wrote. and ner-do-wells will throw it back in your face.

the benefit of the doubt is just not in play here.

remember; I'm in the car business.....and deal with the consequences of poorly used (but well intended) words every day.

added note; I could see myself saying/writing more neutral and less colored.....or less enhanced'