What's the longest time period you have experienced for "Break In"?

[RogerD]

I thought I would post this question as I am a firm believer in a "break in period" for most high end gear.

I found that the gain level increases as a component achieves stability and it can take a surprisingly long time for this to happen. Does 1500 to 2,000 hours sound impossible? My answer is no it doesn't. Please let me know of your experiences with "break in period" for your equipment.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I don't know if it sounds impossible, but it certainly sounds intolerable.

Tim

 

[microstrip]

As far as I know, except for mechanical break-in in loudspeakers, no one has been able to measure any break-in effects in audio. And, even loudspeaker break- in is not universally accepted. If you use tube equipmemnt you can experience measurable differences after this long time due to tube aging.

But I am almost sure that any one having electronics using Teflon capacitors will report on audible differences, not measurable, during break- in.

 

[Speedskater]

That sounds like after the "break in period" it would immediately switch to the "break DOWN period".

 

[RogerD]

I don't know if it sounds impossible, but it certainly sounds intolerable.

Tim

As far as I know, except for mechanical break-in in loudspeakers, no one has been able to measure any break-in effects in audio. And, even loudspeaker break- in is not universally accepted. If you use tube equipmemnt you can experience measurable differences after this long time due to tube aging.

But I am almost sure that any one having electronics using Teflon capacitors will report on audible differences, not measurable, during break- in.

Well I asked this question because after doing a very expensive recap of my Ampex 350's they have taken a long time to stabilize. I wrote this on my Ampex thread some months ago on the WBF,

"Just one other thought after looking at a posted pix of the rebuilt 350,by golly that's a lot of capacitance there. It sure well better sound good, If it doesn't improve over the prior orange drops (712's)quiet background,oh well!"

Now prior to the recap I always set the Ampex record level at 8 and my volume pot on my Accuphase preamp at about 10 o'clock when listening. I could turn the volume level to 12 o'clock and my speakers were dead quiet.

After the recap these settings changed where the Ampex level was placed at 10 and the Accuphase at about 9:15,

Almost everyday I use my Ampex preamps to listen,but during December and part of January they where idle. Now I have taken notice that I can bring my Accuphase preamp up to 11'oclock with my speaker totally silent. I expect that this will change further as the volume level should achieve the 12 o'clock level that the pre recap level did.

What I'm saying is I think that the capacitors have finally started to form up and filter completely and in doing so have improved the noise level.

Maybe I'm all wet but somebody may have a similar experience. With over 2,000 hours on the recap, I just thought this was interesting and I will add that to my ear the dynamics have more "pop" as well.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I thought I would post this question as I am a firm believer in a "break in period" for most high end gear.

I found that the gain level increases as a component achieves stability and it can take a surprisingly long time for this to happen. Does 1500 to 2,000 hours sound impossible? My answer is no it doesn't. Please let me know of your experiences with "break in period" for your equipment.

Impossible? Perhaps not! Ludicrous? Definately! And if I knew that a component piece (and I don't care what that is) would take that many hours to come to its full potential, I wouldn't consider it for a purchase. I listen to my system between 10-15 hrs a week (sorry, but I have a life), and at 1,500 hours of burn-in that is a minimum of 2 years before I get to hear what anything should supposedly sound like. WTF? That is insane, and from a consumer perspective totally unacceptable.

 

[Steve Williams]

I must agree with you John

I don't believe I have ever had a piece of equipment with a 1500-2000 hours break in

 

[RogerD]

Impossible? Perhaps not! Ludicrous? Definately! And if I knew that a component piece (and I don't care what that is) would take that many hours to come to its full potential, I wouldn't consider it for a purchase. I listen to my system between 10-15 hrs a week (sorry, but I have a life), and at 1,500 hours of burn-in that is a minimum of 2 years before I get to hear what anything should supposedly sound like. WTF? That is insane, and from a consumer perspective totally unacceptable.

I must agree with you John

I don't believe I have ever had a piece of equipment with a 1500-2000 hours break in

I agree with both of you. I have never had such a observation before with this length of time and just guessing to be honest. It might not be break in at all. But the volume level correlation with the silent speaker or less level noise is real.....any ideas?

 

[Soundproof]

I would demand a considerable discount from a company that expected me to spend hundreds or even a thousand hours getting their product to deliver to spec.

 

[RogerD]

I would demand a considerable discount from a company that expected me to spend hundreds or even a thousand hours getting their product to deliver to spec.

I'll probably get flamed here,but I would expect a considerable break in period for a high end piece. That is because I have found long break in periods to yield better sound. After many years in this hobby I always look under the hood and frankly that means more to me than measurements whatever they mean.

 

[fas42]

I agree with both of you. I have never had such a observation before with this length of time and just guessing to be honest. It might not be break in at all. But the volume level correlation with the silent speaker or less level noise is real.....any ideas?

If the recap involved electrolytic capacitors it makes sense: this type of electrical part is pretty rubbishy at the best of times, so for a sensitive setup it could be critical. To get a engineer's perspective on it, from the electronics "bible", The Art of Electronics, a rundown of capacitor characteristics: firstly Teflon, then electrolytic:

Teflon: Accuracy - Excellent; Temperature Stability - Best; Leakage - Best
Electrolytic: Accuracy - Terrible; Temperature Stability - Ghastly; Leakage - Awful

Words straight from the book ...

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Roger, I have no experience with break-in beyond speakers and tubes (and that could be characterized as break down) so I have no basis upon which to doubt what you hear. When I said it was intolerable, I meant that in quite a literal sense. I wouldn't tolerate it. Of course no one marketed a re-cap to you, but many manufacturers do actively communicate long break-in periods for their gear. They will never get my business. In fact, they need to tell me that it will be running at its peak performance at least a couple of weeks before the return period expires, or I will pass. Some manufacturers seem to want to tell us that their gear won't be running up to snuff until long after the warranty has expired. Handy.

Tim

 

[treitz3]

While I never bought this one unit I had brand new, it was said to have a 2 to 3 month break in period to which the sound would go from good to bad and everywhere in between during that time. Many folks who owned these all agreed that this is exactly what happened. What I had was Kluass' Odyssey Stratos amplifier. When I bought it, part of the decision to buy used was so that I didn't have to deal with this kind of break in period.

When I get it and hooked if up into the rig, it didn't sound quite like the one I heard in a similarly built rig a buddy of mine had at the time. It was his rig I first heard these in and I was impressed enough at the time to try one out in my rig....but something was amiss. I figured it just had to warm up and I was also aware that it needed two or three days to get straight after unplugging the unit, so I just left it on and went to bed. When I got home from work the next day, the sound had gotten considerably worse! The imaging was severely smeared, the bass was sloppy and slow, the mids just flat out sounded horrendous and the top end reminded me of a distorted BOSE cube. Good thing I had something to do that night 'cause I really wanted to sit down and listen to music.

I wake up the next morning and after doing the breakfast thing, I plop a CD in and try it again. On day three, it sounded fantastic. Everything just came into fruition and it sounded wonderful to me [at that point along my audio journey]. Since I didn't want to go through this again, I made damned sure the amp stayed on 24/7. It was actually designed that way. Well, I just so happen to live in an area of sometimes frequent and violent lightning storms and I was NOT comfortable leaving the rig on when there was a severe threat of lightning.

So, every time lightning was a threat, I unplugged it. As much as I appreciated the attributes of the amplifier, in the middle of one of the worst summer storm seasons, I let it go. I'm so very grateful I never purchased this unit new and because of the reasons aforementioned, I will never own any Odyssey amplifier again.

 

[RogerD]

Roger, I have no experience with break-in beyond speakers and tubes (and that could be characterized as break down) so I have no basis upon which to doubt what you hear. When I said it was intolerable, I meant that in quite a literal sense. I wouldn't tolerate it. Of course no one marketed a re-cap to you, but many manufacturers do actively communicate long break-in periods for their gear. They will never get my business. In fact, they need to tell me that it will be running at its peak performance at least a couple of weeks before the return period expires, or I will pass. Some manufacturers seem to want to tell us that their gear won't be running up to snuff until long after the warranty has expired. Handy.

Tim

Hi Tim,

What I have done with these units is unique. I doubt there is another pair in the world with $1000+ plus dollars worth of boutique capacitors put in place. I asked my tech who did the work to estimate on how long for the break in period... his guess 1000 hours. He has specialised in tube electonics for 40 years. These caps are mostly Mundorf and Mundorfs are double wound. So in essence they are designed to be double the design of other caps.

"Special induction-free winding technology: Two capacitor windings are interleaved so that their inductances effectively cancel each other out. These two windings are connected in series. This means that it takes two 2µF windings to make a single 1µF MCap-Supreme capacitor - the same amount that it would take to produce a full 4µF of capacity using conventional technology!"

These new technology caps are now being used by some high end manufacturers with good results.

I know your tenacity for science and it's use by high end users. So I am glad to be able to get some kind of handle on this by the gain and volume settings. Also I was pretty darn happy from the get go on this.

Tenacity is a virtue btw.

Roger

 

[fas42]

I wake up the next morning and after doing the breakfast thing, I plop a CD in and try it again. On day three, it sounded fantastic. Everything just came into fruition and it sounded wonderful to me [at that point along my audio journey]. Since I didn't want to go through this again, I made damned sure the amp stayed on 24/7. It was actually designed that way. Well, I just so happen to live in an area of sometimes frequent and violent lightning storms and I was NOT comfortable leaving the rig on when there was a severe threat of lightning.

That 3 day time period resonates with me: years and years ago when I first started getting truly worthwhile sound I had that same trouble, took 3 days to get the sound to stabilise after full cool down. The CD player really took a week or so to fully come to life, but 3 days was most of the way there.

A lot of the problems appear to be with the various materials other than the obvious used within electronics: the plastics and such like. The heat generated within the casing takes quite a while to seep through and bring these sort of elements to a complete stability in temperature terms: on a high resolution system this can make a big difference.

Frank

 

[RogerD]

Listened tonight, it's the lytics forming....geesh, but oh those dynamics,it's worth it to me atleast.

 

[Soundproof]

The manufacturer of my phono pre recommended a three-day run in for the unit, and had good reasons why due to the cap's he used in it. Three days is acceptable. Weeks, months? Not so much. I know of one CD-player that was supposed to be run in for nearly a thousand hours; given the actual innards of it, it was a miracle if it would last that long.

I always ask the salespeople who speak of long run-in periods "How does the equipment know when to stabilize? What safeguards does the manufacturer use to ensure that optimum is reached and that this state remains stable?"
The answers are usually amusing, and belong in the sentient electronics category.

 

[bblue]

I've never added a new piece of gear that *didn't* get better after at least several days, including cables, amps, preamps, cartridges, you name it. Occasionally one might take a week or two before settling down. Once they have been through the initial break in and then powered off, it may take several hours to get back to the ideal sound. It varies wildly, but from power up, my Pass Labs X250.5 power amp needs at least two hours before it sounds 'right', the Ortofon A90 cartridge seems to take about one side of an LP to start tracking right, and some cables if they have been physically moved could take as low as 1/2 an hour, to several hours to return to their optimum performance -- depending mostly on the dielectric used internally, and/or the outer jacket. All-digital components don't seem to be anywhere near as sensitive, but usually only need to get to their normal operating temperatures. Much of the time you don't even notice it.

That's been my experience, repeatedly.

--Bill

 

[rockitman]

to me component break in is just leaving the said component on 24/7, not necessarily listening all that time to that component in order to break it in. Carts are different though and require them to be used (spinning records) to further the break in process. I suspect interconnects are the same way...you must actually play music through them to continue to break them in.

 

[RogerD]

Break in is nebulous but I am a firm believer. It's not out of the ordinary for esoteric cables to season fully in 200 to 300 hours or tubes to take 100 hours. Todays extreme caps are used by few major component manufacturers because of cost and size constraits. We are in uncharted waters with these high quality parts. Just my opinion.