What is "Sound Stage?"

[Soundproof]

Soundproof,

Please read my post before taking from it conclusions that I have NOT presented in it .
Surely the comment is about the ears - I have often referred that our ears are not microphones, but the end of track.

For me the interesting part seemed : Spectral differences provided by the head-related transfer function (HRTF) are the main cues used for vertical localization.

If the way the ear perceives the height is partially based on alterations of the spectral content, not in directional issues, than may be microphones can convey this information if they are accurate enough. (my humble interpretation)

If you think that this is impossible (may be it is ) please educate us.

BTW, the Cocktail Party Problem has nothing to do with the height issue - it was only the title of the paper, and I had to reference it . Next time I will call it CPP to avoid misinterpretations.

Well - Ambisonics tries to present information that the ear can interpret correctly, by setting up an array of speakers around the listeners, that reproduce acoustic information that has been collected through a similar array. The goal being to present our sense of hearing with a fuller simulation of the real soundstage.
It might be useful to actually read about the HRTF which you highlighted, and how that works:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-related_transfer_function

Binaural heads are an attempt to emulate how we hear - but there's a limitation, as each of us interprets space according to the tools at our disposal - where our ear shape, and the shape of the pinnae, and the amount of practice we have identifying source-locations, determine our degree of precision. Which is why you might get better localization information if the binaural head used to record had ears attached that actually were casts of your pinnae ...
Worth thinking about.

 

[Soundproof]

I appreciate your extended response, Soundproof, and the thoughts therein. However, at the end of the day, it is only John Culshaw whose opinion you're quoting: no matter who experienced, that is the viewpoint of a single person acquired through personal experience with the equipment of the day, and, perhaps most importantly, possibly how he assessed the ability of the playback equipment available in those days to reveal low level reverberation information. He may have done extensive experiments to test what was possible by capturing echo and other acoustic information, but you've haven't mentioned anything along those lines.

So we still not aware of any experiment done, testing whether echoing from the floor and ceiling which is captured along with the direct signal is sufficient information for the human hearing mechanism to discern height: there should be at least a master's degree for someone willing to do experiments along these lines ...

Frank

Frank - this is now bordering on lunacy.

Let's delineate what we're discussing:

1. Is there height information that can be universally interpreted as such in lateral stereo recordings?
The technology says no - a lot of grasshopper-references has you claiming yes, without a single specific reference stating yes.

2. Are people working on methods to introduce height-references in reproduced hifi?
Yes, have been since forever, because of the inability of traditional stereo to do the same. There are lots of different techniques and proposals - but unless your system at home respects the boundaries for those proposals, you can not recreate that vertical information through your system.

3. Is it silly to use the ability of planes to fly to prove that cars without wings are capable of the same?
Yes. Just as silly as it is to use a system that has attacked the problem of verticality to claim that verticality is possible in a system that has no technology for recording or reproduction of the same.

4. Is it about time to retire that absolutely irrelevant and false bumblebee & science analogy? Yes.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Only because most of those claiming to hear it believe that it is based on information in the original stereo recording. Not a synthetic based on the height of transducers in the speakers or variables in the listening room. I personally prefer an accurate rendition of the recording within the capabilities of two channel stereo.

--Bill

I'm with you!

 

[fas42]

4. Is it about time to retire that absolutely irrelevant and false bumblebee & science analogy? Yes.

So you would be willing to bet serious money, say, that if one did the experiment I suggested, http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...Sound-Stage-quot&p=89931&viewfull=1#post89931, that no-one under any circumstances would be able to accurately decipher what was going on?

Frank

 

[Soundproof]

So you would be willing to bet serious money, say, that if one did the experiment I suggested, http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...Sound-Stage-quot&p=89931&viewfull=1#post89931, that no-one under any circumstances would be able to accurately decipher what was going on?

Frank

Well, that example clearly shows you have failed to understand the problem of vertical acoustic reproduction, as you do not have an anchor for orientation, but move the microphones up and down.

It's all nonsense, Frank. Just a lot of noise.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Personally I think we've probably exhausted the discussion. What more can be gained by continual disagreement?

 

[RogerD]

Two condition will be required to make it seem as if there is no sweet spot in your listening room: mono, and perfectly even frequency response from your speakers, from any position in the room. Do you have those conditions, roger?

Tim

Tim, I have owned these same speakers for 30 years. They have been in three different rooms and have always produced a very open quality. The sound I currently have is the most enjoyable and emotional I have experienced. I think it is mostly to do with my low distortion endeavors. All I can say is that the speakers both satellites and psychos act, sound like perfect air pumps. Too bad we are not neighbors because, I think you would have to listen for your self to get a understanding of what I hear.
Probably the most unique feature I now enjoy is a energy that is produced. I listened to Karen Carpenter last night, what a pure voice. No sweet spot as such,just a out of thin air quality and a energy level that reminds me of amplified music in a live setting. Similar to what I hear on master recordings when the microphone is energised.
Anyway over the years I have always done things to increase the ambient level. If the steps taken are positive then I know I'm on the right track. It helps when your system is designed to convey that attribute or quality.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim, I have owned these same speakers for 30 years. They have been in three different rooms and have always produced a very open quality. The sound I currently have is the most enjoyable and emotional I have experienced. I think it is mostly to do with my low distortion endeavors. All I can say is that the speakers both satellites and psychos act, sound like perfect air pumps. Too bad we are not neighbors because, I think you would have to listen for your self to get a understanding of what I hear.
Probably the most unique feature I now enjoy is a energy that is produced. I listened to Karen Carpenter last night, what a pure voice. No sweet spot as such,just a out of thin air quality and a energy level that reminds me of amplified music in a live setting. Similar to what I hear on master recordings when the microphone is energised.
Anyway over the years I have always done things to increase the ambient level. If the steps taken are positive then I know I'm on the right track. It helps when your system is designed to convey that attribute or quality.

I'm not questioning the quality of your speakers or your listening experience, Roger, but I may be questioning your definition of "sweet spot." Let's assume, for the sake of argument that, with your speakers, in your room, there is absolutely no loss of information off axis. They have exactly the same frequency response if you're standing directly to the side of one speaker as they do if you're directly in front of it. While that is highly unlikely, I'm going to give you that one, because you can't possibly get #2, which would be, from that same position, to the side of one speaker, you will hear a perfect balance of left and right channels complete with the best stereo image your speakers are capable of projecting from any other listening position in your room.

Those two things, together, would be basic requirements to meet my definition of "no sweet spot." Your definition must be different, because you cannot be achieving both of those criteria.

Tim

 

[RogerD]

I'm not questioning the quality of your speakers or your listening experience, Roger, but I may be questioning your definition of "sweet spot." Let's assume, for the sake of argument that, with your speakers, in your room, there is absolutely no loss of information off axis. They have exactly the same frequency response if you're standing directly to the side of one speaker as they do if you're directly in front of it. While that is highly unlikely, I'm going to give you that one, because you can't possibly get #2, which would be, from that same position, to the side of one speaker, you will hear a perfect balance of left and right channels complete with the best stereo image your speakers are capable of projecting from any other listening position in your room.

Those two things, together, would be basic requirements to meet my definition of "no sweet spot." Your definition must be different, because you cannot be achieving both of those criteria.

Tim

With all due respect the word "can't" is not in my vocabulary. There is no sweet spot in a live setting is there? What would the properties of the perfect audio system be? A system with no distortion? Most if not all would say it's impossible. I'm not one of those. I think most get glimpses of what is indeed possible. it's hard work to perfect a audio system. Now I'm done ranting.

Like I said too bad you were not a neighbor......

There is a sweet spot in live settings but it is not to the same degree as we use the term in reproduced audio.

 

[Soundproof]

With all due respect the word "can't" is not in my vocabulary. There is no sweet spot in a live setting is there?

How can you say "there is no sweet spot in a live setting"? Do you go to live concerts at all? The laws of acoustics apply there, just as much as they do in front of your system. You may not have the exact same focus as you do listening to speakers, depending upon the speakers, but there is definitely a sound stage, with a lateral dispersion of sources, in acoustic music.

When I listen to a chamber orchestra or string quartet, I can follow each instrument with my eyes closed.

 

[RogerD]

How can you say "there is no sweet spot in a live setting"? Do you go to live concerts at all? The laws of acoustics apply there, just as much as they do in front of your system. You may not have the exact same focus as you do listening to speakers, depending upon the speakers, but there is definitely a sound stage, with a lateral dispersion of sources, in acoustic music.

When I listen to a chamber orchestra or string quartet, I can follow each instrument with my eyes closed.

you misunderstand.

 

[Ron Party]

As someone who has gone to well over 400 hundred concerts in all kinds of venues with all kinds of music, as well as someone who has played different instruments and played everything from classical to rock to jazz/blues, my observation is that there is indeed a sweet spot. Having stated that, the sweet spot usually is larger than that of home stereo/theater.

 

[RogerD]

As someone who has gone to well over 400 hundred concerts in all kinds of venues with all kinds of music, as well as someone who has played different instruments and played everything from classical to rock to jazz/blues, my observation is that there is indeed a sweet spot. Having stated that, the sweet spot usually is larger than that of home stereo/theater.

Exactly

 

[Steve williams]

Exactly

But Roger as Tim said there is no sweet spot off axis

 

[Soundproof]

you misunderstand.

Maybe I misunderstand your claim about live sweet spots - hard to misunderstand this:

There is no sweet spot in a live setting is there?

See you added a sentence to the post in question.

I have a little booklet where I've written down the sweetspot seats in more than fifty excellent concert halls around the world - not sharing.

 

[RogerD]

But Roger as Tim said there is no sweet spot off axis

Steve,

In my experience the sweet spot expands,as the speakers become extremely coherent. I believe it happens when you target low level distortion. the speakers actually fully disappear and the scale of the recording is very large. Every part of the recording benefits and a palpable aura is realized.

 

[Steve williams]

Steve,

In my experience the sweet spot expands,as the speakers become extremely coherent. I believe it happens when you target low level distortion. the speakers actually fully disappear and the scale of the recording is very large. Every part of the recording benefits and a palpable aura is realized.

Next time I'm in Reno I am coming by for a listen because I find I am agreeing with Tim when he said....

your definition of "sweet spot." Let's assume, for the sake of argument that, with your speakers, in your room, there is absolutely no loss of information off axis. They have exactly the same frequency response if you're standing directly to the side of one speaker as they do if you're directly in front of it. While that is highly unlikely, I'm going to give you that one, because you can't possibly get #2, which would be, from that same position, to the side of one speaker, you will hear a perfect balance of left and right channels complete with the best stereo image your speakers are capable of projecting from any other listening position in your room.

 

[microstrip]

(...) I have a little booklet where I've written down the sweetspot seats in more than fifty excellent concert halls around the world - not sharing.

This is a very unscientific attitude! How many backups do you have of it?

 

[mep]

I could be wrong here (imagine that), but I feel like what Roger has said with regards to the “sweet spot” is being taken out of context. What I got out of what Roger said was that the better your system becomes and using his unique speaker setup, he has a very wide sweet spot. In other words, if you shift your head over ½”, the illusion doesn’t collapse like a drunken man on a sidewalk. I don’t remember reading where Roger said he could get up and go behind one of his speakers and still hear the stereo illusion.

 

[RogerD]

Next time I'm in Reno I am coming by for a listen because I find I am agreeing with Tim when he said....

Steve, Should be fun,let me know.

Roger