What is "Sound Stage?"

[RogerD]

Has anybody decided where the "aura" or "natural bloom" of the instruments or vocalists fits in? Image or sound stage?

 

[mep]

I don't know how you can divorce imaging from the sound stage. Without images, there would be no sound stage.

 

[RogerD]

I don't know how you can divorce imaging from the sound stage. Without images, there would be no sound stage.

Kinda like taking the banana away from the split...eh.

 

[c1ferrari]

@ Soundproof

No facebook ergo no Spotify

 

[Soundproof]

No facebook ergo no Spotify

Is that a US requirement? In Europe, you don't need Fb to use Spotify. Should work the same there. Just click that you don't want to connect your Fb-page to Spotify.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

You don't need FB for Spotify here either.

Tim

 

[bblue]

I'm always amazed at the information especially ambient ques that are in recordings. I'm sure the setup has something to do with height...

Oh, do you think? Where are the midrange and tweeter units in the cabinets?

The satellite speakers are right below the ceiling pointing straight ahead and not conforming to the angle of the main speakers, AND are very close to the ceiling for great reflections at a high level.

Yep, you undoubtedly have 'height', but it is synthetic and not in the recording.


For those of you who think the microphones capture height information, how do they know the difference between width or height and convey that in ONE channel? Why not try a simple recording with ONE mic, then play it back on your system, either on one or both speakers. There will be NO height present unless your playback is generating it.

A microphone can only capture all directions simultaneously into ONE two wire element. It has no notion whatsoever of directionality.

Two mics placed on a horizontal axis will each record a channel based on what each hears from all directions. Listening to either of them will be a flat no dimension representation of what a given mic hears. It's only when you play the left recording mic back on the left channel, and the right recording mic on the right channel, that you can hear the differences that each records, and therefore create a sound stage. Since the mics are horizontal to each other, the elements of your two channel playback will be horizontal only. Period.

The only way you could achieve any height is if you added a third mic above the horizontal plane that the first two mics are on, recording on its own channel, and played back on a speaker that is located above the L and R channels. But that would only be a narrow width version of height, because the single height mic only hears in one place all directions.

If you wanted a representation of height that is as wide as L & R, you would need to move the single height mic above either the L or R mic, and another mic on another discrete channel placed above the other channels' main mic. Your playback would need four speakers in front of you, two in a normal position and one each above them playing the height info.

If you don't understand how/why this is, or still believe that a mic by itself can convey direction and position you have a fundamental misunderstanding of sound recording and playback and should do a little research. Or just enjoy the illusion!

--Bill

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

It's hard to believe this one has lasted so long. Apply some very basic good sense: There can be no height information in the recording unless there are microphones to record the height information, discrete channels in the media and in your system to decode and amplify the height information and speakers to play the height information into your room (from up high). It simply cannot be another way. I'm sure the Chesky recording is exceedingly clever, but it's a hat trick. There is no height information on the recording. Period. They may get a single sound to seem to move in an arch from low to high to low, but they cannot get the mouth of the singer 5.5' off the floor while his guitar is only 3.5 off the floor. If any of you are hearing anything at all like that, you are hearing your own very fertile imaginations. And if this "height" information cannot place instruments and voices in the field, what good is it? It's only good as a hat trick. Enjoy the Chesky toy.

Tim

 

[Soundproof]

It's hard to believe this one has lasted so long. Apply some very basic good sense: There can be no height information in the recording unless there are microphones to record the height information, discrete channels in the media and in your system to decode and amplify the height information and speakers to play the height information into your room (from up high). It simply cannot be another way. I'm sure the Chesky recording is exceedingly clever, but it's a hat trick. There is no height information on the recording. Period. They may get a single sound to seem to move in an arch from low to high to low, but they cannot get the mouth of the singer 5.5' off the floor while his guitar is only 3.5 off the floor. If any of you are hearing anything at all like that, you are hearing your own very fertile imaginations. And if this "height" information cannot place instruments and voices in the field, what good is it? It's only good as a hat trick. Enjoy the Chesky toy.

Tim

Ah, Phelonius ... but Myles tells us our systems are faulty, for not being able to reveal the marvels of height in recordings where no height was recorded.

 

[NorthStar]

And I agree 100% with Myles, and fully disagree with Tim on that one above, "period". :b

Height is everywhere, and is recorded by quality microphones, and reproduced by quality loudspeakers ...
You gotta see higher than just conventional conceptualisation.
What you don't see and hear is still there; just get the right tools to access them ...

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

And I agree 100% with Myles, and fully disagree with Tim on that one above, "period". :b

Height is everywhere, and is recorded by quality microphones, and reproduced by quality loudspeakers ...
You gotta see higher than just conventional conceptualisation.
What you don't see and hear is still there; just get the right tools to access them ...

Then explain to me how this height information was captured, where in the media it is stored, and what, in your stereo system separates it, decodes it and plays it into your room.

These are not technical questions, by the way. A rudimentary understanding of how monophonic microphones and stereophonic media and playback systems work will either get you to these answers, showing that Myles is right and I'm wrong, or show that there is no discrete height information in the recording. Period. And if there is no discrete height information, there can be no voice/instrument placement in the vertical field. And if there can be no voice/instrument placement in the vertical field...I digress...seriously, you guys can't just make up your own reality and claim that our systems are at fault if we don't share your hallucination. You're insulting your intelligence an it's tired of defending itself.

Tim

 

[microstrip]

It's hard to believe this one has lasted so long. Apply some very basic good sense: There can be no height information in the recording unless there are microphones to record the height information, discrete channels in the media and in your system to decode and amplify the height information and speakers to play the height information into your room (from up high). It simply cannot be another way. I'm sure the Chesky recording is exceedingly clever, but it's a hat trick. There is no height information on the recording. Period. They may get a single sound to seem to move in an arch from low to high to low, but they cannot get the mouth of the singer 5.5' off the floor while his guitar is only 3.5 off the floor. If any of you are hearing anything at all like that, you are hearing your own very fertile imaginations. And if this "height" information cannot place instruments and voices in the field, what good is it? It's only good as a hat trick. Enjoy the Chesky toy.

Tim

Tim,

Again we will disagree because you listen to the recording and I (and many others ) listen with the collective imagination

Height information is not intentionally recorded in stereo, but the ear/brain perceptual apparatus can find cues in some recordings from which it forms an impression of the height of the AS. The height is perceived at a greater distance than the loudspeakers and not as above the listener, because he "looks" into the AS in front of him. Siegfried Linkwitz about How tall is the auditory scene?

I think that. although as you say technically the recording has no height information, some systems allow (enhance?) these clues and successfully suggest the information of height - some times when listening to ancient music I really feel like the harpsichord is a lower plane than the voices. And I have a recording that has the sound of steps during all the song - and they move on a lower plane. MBL speakers are particularly good in this aspect - voices also usually seem to separate from the plane of musical instruments.

I will come back to my fetich speaker - the TheSonusFaber. When listening to it several people notice that the soundstage seemed to have perfect and natural height. May be Steve can tell us about the X2.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim,

Again we will disagree because you listen to the recording and I (and many others ) listen with the collective imagination

Height information is not intentionally recorded in stereo, but the ear/brain perceptual apparatus can find cues in some recordings from which it forms an impression of the height of the AS. The height is perceived at a greater distance than the loudspeakers and not as above the listener, because he "looks" into the AS in front of him. Steve Linkwitz about How tall is the auditory scene?

I think that. although as you say technically the recording has no height information, some systems allow (enhance?) these clues and successfully suggest the information of height - some times when listening to ancient music I really feel like the harpsichord is a lower plane than the voices. And I have a recording that has the sound of steps during all the song - and they move on a lower plane. MBL speakers are particularly good in this aspect - voices also usually seem to separate from the plane of musical instruments.

I will come back to my fetich speaker - the TheSonusFaber. When listening to it several people notice that the soundstage seemed to have perfect and natural height. May be Steve can tell us about the X2.

Let me make sure I'm being clear: Speakers can, of course put sound into the room that is above the height of the tops of the speakers. This is easy. You want it higher? I could make it higher for you with just a moment's adjusting. But if you are hearing different instruments/voices at different heights...again, we agree. You are listening with the collective imagination, because the reality is not there. And the proof is that no one will be able to tell me how it got onto the recording or played back by the system. They will only be able to insist that they hear it and tell me my system or my ears are faulty. But the bottom line? You're hearing stereo from mono recordings and mono playback systems. If something is preventing me from hearing it, it is my grip on reality, not the limitations of my system.

Tim

 

[Soundproof]

Tim,


Height information is not intentionally recorded in stereo, but the ear/brain perceptual apparatus can find cues in some recordings from which it forms an impression of the height of the AS (Auditory Scene). The height is perceived at a greater distance than the loudspeakers and not as above the listener, because he "looks" into the AS in front of him. Steve Linkwitz about How tall is the auditory scene?

Linkwitz must be surprised to find himself called Steve here, given that his name is Siegfried.

And he writes precisely what Tim and I are writing - that the mind is creating the perception of height, based on information we gather to be true - such as that the singer is standing up, the drummer is sitting down, the "bass" is low, the trumpet is high ...
As Jack has stated, we can do things to the sound that supports this illusion of verticality, but conventional stereo is not set up to record vertical data, quite simply.

 

[microstrip]

Linkwitz must be surprised to find himself called Steve here, given that his name is Siegfried.

And he writes precisely what Tim and I are writing - that the mind is creating the perception of height, based on information we gather to be true - such as that the singer is standing up, the drummer is sitting down, the "bass" is low, the trumpet is high ...
As Jack has stated, we can do things to the sound that supports this illusion of verticality, but conventional stereo is not set up to record vertical data, quite simply.

Thanks for spotting my mistake in Linkwitz name.

However I have a different reading from yours - it is clear stated the mind creates the height perception because of the clues in some recordings. These clues then became the height information - you will not feel it listening with headphones or in all systems and are specific to some recordings.

I am not debating the origin of the clues - but if they trigger this sensation systematically they must exist.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Living in California, I imagine there are times it would be easier if his name were Steve. Let me be clear about one more thing. I hear this phenomenon sometimes myself. The difference is I know I am taking what is there and imagining what should be there. Unless I misunderstand them, I beileve there are a few people in this discussion who believe this is real, that height information is somehow recorded and encoded into their media, then decoded and played back through their systems giving them actual height information in their soundstage. Again, this is like hearing a full stereo field, stereo imaging, from a single speaker.

Tim

 

[andromedaaudio]

I am not so sure its all in the head .
When i watch Heat for example , and the helicopter comes flying over LA (2/3 of the film ) the helisound leads a live of its own, coming in from the left up corner and slowly descending through the middle , i think it is what is mentioned earlier a feature what can be picked up by the recordingmike /editing.

 

[NorthStar]

... And if there can be no voice/instrument placement in the vertical field...I digress...seriously, you guys can't just make up your own reality and claim that our systems are at fault if we don't share your hallucination. You're insulting your intelligence an it's tired of defending itself.

Tim

We don't insult anything; we are simply discussing to further our knowledge that's all.
And in that regard I'd say we are quite intelligent and we appreciate in applying it to smart use. :b

* In many recordings you can hear (situate, position) different heights easily.
The drums are lower, the vocals higher, etc.
The reverbs from the ceiling are excellent clues as well. ...Even from the floor.

And I bet that there are smart loudspeakers' systems out there, with the help of some pro Room Correction & EQ systems, that can emphasize that Height in the soundstage even more ...

Perhaps with TacT's help, and/or other smart systems.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Ah, Phelonius ... but Myles tells us our systems are faulty, for not being able to reveal the marvels of height in recordings where no height was recorded.

OK smarty pants, then tell me why image height varies as a function of VTA settings if there's no height in the recordings? Or am I hallucinating about that too? Perhaps instead of pursuing a flat earth policy of how height can't exist that runs contrary to many audiophile's observations, maybe more time should be spent to figure out what's wrong with the theory.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I am not debating the origin of the clues - but if they trigger this sensation systematically they must exist.

Draw a circle on a piece of paper in front of you. That is the pick up pattern of your microphone. Stand above it and sing down into it from a 45 degree angle. It may change the frequency response of the mic, depending on its off-axis response. Sing into it from 45 degrees to the left. From 45 degrees to the right. From 45 degrees below. If it is of good quality, it will exhibit exactly the same change in response with the same degree off axis.

This, the microphone, is the origin of the sound; the origin of your "clues." This is the only place real, physical, spacial clues in the recording can happen, because this is the only place in the entire recording and playback chain that real, physical spacial clues exist. And the mic has no sense of direction, all it has is a change in response.

Tim