What is it about the bass, that it becomes so robust with after-market cords and conditioners?
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Not to take sides on the power cords audible differences argument, but your comparison is less than ideal. Pregnancy can be confirmed, and measured, in MANY ways (visually and scientifically). And "expectation bias" does not play a huge role. Not the case of cords. While SR has allegedly shown measurable differences in power cords, there is no demonstrable proof that those measurement are audible. And like it or not, "expectation bias" plays a role in so many of our decisions, audio being only one.
To set the record straight, I do think (that would be me) there are audible differences in some audio components for which measurements may or may not be available for confirmation.
Hello audioguy and good morning to you. I understand where you are coming from with the comparison. There is confirmation of the test results as to whether one is pregnant or not. With the other it boils down to differences that, as you admit, may not be measurable. One good example would be the perceived sound stage. If power cord A has a small sound stage and seemingly a compressed imagery or depth with individual instruments or singers and power cord B increases the perceived size of the sound stage, more perceived depth and space around individual instruments or singers? I'm unsure as to whether or not this can be measured. With that said, this is one of the main parameters that *can* be offered.
Offering more current flow that increases the lower octaves I know full well can be measured. The gains in top end extension or clarity I'm also sure can be measured.
I guess my point is that (to me), there is no "belief" that there are any changes. There either is or there is not. One does not have to "believe" one way or the other. The changes are either present or they are not. How about this....a car engine either runs or it does not. That's completely measurable, although it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the engine isn't running.
Tom
Offering more current flow that increases the lower octaves I know full well can be measured. The gains in top end extension or clarity I'm also sure can be measured.
I guess my point is that (to me), there is no "belief" that there are any changes. There either is or there is not. One does not have to "believe" one way or the other. The changes are either present or they are not. How about this....a car engine either runs or it does not. That's completely measurable, although it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the engine isn't running.
Tom
I see that differently. "Believing" that there are changes does allow for "expectation bias". A car running (or a woman being pregnant) does not. And, in a really stupid analogy, I can "believe" all kinds of things (Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, the Earth is flat, etc.) that does not make them so. (That said, and FWIW, I still do "believe" in Santa Claus
).Here are my thoughts on all of these issues (cables, interconnects, grounding, etc): Even if, for example, there are no real differences in cables BUT I "detect" them and enjoy them, I am totally OK with that. This is, after all, a hobby, the purpose of which is to provide us enjoyment.
The issue I have with these "debates" is a person on one side of the debate passively or actively insulting those on the other side because they don't agree with them. No one is going to suddenly say "Ah ha, I now see what you are saying" and change their mind. State your opinion, and move on. But I know that is an unrealistic expectation.
The question is Lloyd if that uplift is real, i.e. is it really in the recording just coming out or an additive of the cords. I know PAD well, it gives an impressive bass boost specially on your X-1s, tight but one note, the mids take a back seat lose dimension and nuance, upper mids and top end become more impressive, lots of depth in the soundstage. I'm thinking of writing a primer on what to use and what listen for when testing equipment, it's difficult. Naturally the first thing that one's mind focuses on are the impressive parts and automatically you can forget about what's gone missing. I'm not saying what to like just be aware of what's going on.
david
Sounds like the information revealed is incomplete,and it will be if the cable has design and engineering faults. A balanced presentation is possible,but a cable group alone will not produce a truly balanced and faithful to the audio signal presentation. That is the problem and it is ludicrous to think otherwise. Lloyd knows from experience that cables are not the full answer,but the good news is he is doing what is necessary to bring his system into balance. Cables can not add information,they can distort that information. Is it possible that a black cord can deliver all the information, yes,but only if the audio signal is transferred through the system without interference.
P.S. replacing a black power cord into a system will actually not prove anything,because it is signal integrity that matters. If the circuit is free of interference or a greater part,that black cord will not degrade performance substantially. Now if you replace the entire circuit with different cords that is entirely different. It all depends on the level of interference in the circuit.
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Overall, I agree that the presentation changes with the PADs...and because my system is a mix of all the equipment, the room, the placement, and on and on...the tonal balance is either 'back' where i first heard the original equipment (but just "more", as in more power, more clarity, more tonal density, etc)...or its not 'back' anywhere...its just what i prefer. I admit...much more likely the latter.
That said, on the recordings that i listen to...as i have continued to add isolation, damping, emi/rfi, and yes, a long time ago these power cables...i found that the piano recordings, etc sound more like pianos to me. And other recordings started to take on similar improvements (to my ear).
I have no doubt that along the way, certain frequencies or other areas may have become 'off' without my realizing it.
DDK - IF YOU HAVE REFERENCE RECORDINGS AND ALSO DESCRIPTIONS OF 'HOW THEY SHOULD SOUND...IF THAT'S EVEN POSSIBLE TO TRANSLATE SO I CAN ACTUALLY 'CALIBRATE'...THAT WOULD BE FUN. Certainly placement of objects relative to each other or to the speakers or listener, or being able to hear certain words or effects is a nice start.
Of course the entire system matters but this thread is about the contribution of power cords to the overall sound and they do a lot. Cables don't and information but can and do distort the signal and add artifacts. Like your NBS, you're right the soundstage is big with them but so is the bottom end and very impressive all the time. Singers are alway singing right up close to the mic with woosh of air and slight sibilance. Everything has some chest, sopranos sound like a mezzo, piccolo like a flute. You hear more body of the violin than the strings and never the very high notes, there's a lot of the soundboard with piano and is always extra present with lower notes, etc., etc. The backgrounds are always artificially dark no matter the venue. I know Walter claims that's because he's removed noise from the lines but that darkness is an additive as Keith mentions below. A jazz club, concert hall and recording studio aren't all the same black and each place has it's own background noise and ambience, NBS does away with all that. How can every recording have dark backgrounds? You've lived with your NBS for a long time and are used to them and like what they do which is great but my point from the beginning is that many audiophile cords have strong characteristics and aren't neutral. You're right about circuit noise but in this case you're just slapping a bandaid with other issues on top of it instead addressing the problem.
david
Agreed!
The choice of power cables is a matter of system matching and user preference. IMHO there are no absolutes in this hobby, or pseudo science arguments in cables.
There are many ways to manipulate sound quality in a system to please our preferences, power cables is just one of them. One thing seems sure - as far as I can see no one presenting his preference or his views concerning the choice of power cables is a partisan of the technical neutral school and all of us pick their power cables based on their "magic". So divergence is quite natural.
There are many ways to manipulate sound quality in a system to please our preferences, power cables is just one of them. One thing seems sure - as far as I can see no one presenting his preference or his views concerning the choice of power cables is a partisan of the technical neutral school and all of us pick their power cables based on their "magic". So divergence is quite natural.
IMHO it is not fun, IMHO it is almost mandatory. We learn a lot about people systems from the posts concerning listening sessions.
David the point I'm trying to make is when you remove all the magnetic interference,the cables become balanced because all they do is transfer the audio signal in the complete circuit. All the the flaws you point to in NBS don't exist in my system. If you think "live" music has boundaries,you are wrong,because in my system there are no boundaries,just music and the clarity,speed,dynamics,tonal purity that any system could hope for whether it be Basie,Sinatra,the Met or Miles....
Recorded music isn't between two speakers or just beyond the speakers,that is a limitation of the magnetic interference in the system.
I'm just tuning into this thread and would like to offer some comments. It's somewhat remarkable that people are tearing David a new a**hole for suggesting that a very inexpensive power cord can indeed sound remarkably good, without any direct hands-on listening experience. A little over a year ago, David offered to send me some Ching Cheng's for my evaluation. Simply put, I was extremely impressed and remain so to this day. Let me state right off the bat, these may or may not be the "best" PCs I've ever used for two reasons. First, "best" is a meaningless descriptor but most importantly, the most meaningful thing I've learned about PCs (or AC outlets for that matter) is that almost every consideration for what sounds the best is application specific. What I will say is that the CC's have a remarkable midrange neutrality and naturalness that is about as good as anything else I had heard. And I've heard a lot of stuff. A simple piano recording is all one needs to assess this wonderful natural sounding PC.
What I'm suggesting is that it might be beneficial to approach these "throw down the gauntlet" suggestions with an open mind. Did I think for one minute that those CC PCs could ever sound better than some 3k PCs I was using? No way. But the truth is, I no longer own those 3K PCs. I've been to David's and understand his sonic references and while we certainly disagree on many things audio-wise, when he says I should try something to hear how it sounds, I've learned to pay attention. In fact, the CC's initiated a long and exhausting re-evaluation of my PCs and AC outlets. It was and still is a work in progress and I have David to thank (or curse) for that. But in the end, these efforts have enabled me to improve my sound and the impetus for this was hearing something unanticipated in those damn CC cables and being brutally honest about what they did in comparison to some other very expensive PCs I had in use at the time.
What I'm suggesting is that it might be beneficial to approach these "throw down the gauntlet" suggestions with an open mind. Did I think for one minute that those CC PCs could ever sound better than some 3k PCs I was using? No way. But the truth is, I no longer own those 3K PCs. I've been to David's and understand his sonic references and while we certainly disagree on many things audio-wise, when he says I should try something to hear how it sounds, I've learned to pay attention. In fact, the CC's initiated a long and exhausting re-evaluation of my PCs and AC outlets. It was and still is a work in progress and I have David to thank (or curse) for that. But in the end, these efforts have enabled me to improve my sound and the impetus for this was hearing something unanticipated in those damn CC cables and being brutally honest about what they did in comparison to some other very expensive PCs I had in use at the time.
Ching Cheng
Or: http://www.stereophile.com/content/silent-source-cabling#bZ2OB2bAGljcA5y0.97
What's your Yin and Yang?
Or: http://www.stereophile.com/content/silent-source-cabling#bZ2OB2bAGljcA5y0.97
What's your Yin and Yang?
6 years ago after I installed my Equi=tech 10WC 10Kva wall panel-isolation transformer, I soon realized I needed to take a more neutral power cable approach instead of viewing power cables as some sort of 'boost' or 'fix' to my gear. my particular solution was Gary Koh's Absolute Fidelity power cords, as they were not super beast big and had no tonal agenda, they were simply clean conduits for appropriate energy transfer based on Gary's 'secret sauce' complimentary tuning for particular spots in my system.....based on his design experience with speakers and electronics. to my ears they came with 'no baggage' and get out of the way.
they are not cheap, but not crazy expensive. I use 10 of them in my system.
the one place I use something else is my dart 458 mono blocks. when I got those I acquired a pair of Evolution Acoustics TRPC's (triple run power cords) to compare which use essentially the same wire in my speaker cables and speakers. they are huge and heavy. I compared these directly to the Absolute Fidelity and the EA's were better everywhere by a little and more than a little in dynamic flow being much more robust and authoritative. which made sense. the EA's were also twice as expensive as Gary's AF, but still not bank breakers compared to many.
since that time all these power cords have served me well and seemed to get out of the way of any sort of influence.
the only change I've made to power cords since acquiring these power cords is when the Furutech NCF tech plugs were introduced, I had my dealer install those on all these power cords last year. this upgrade was again synergistic with system character as being without tonal or FR influence.
we all have different power grids, rooms, and system approaches, so this are is not a one size fits all. there is no wrong approach. I see where ddk is coming from as my intentions are the same. I may not agree with him on the specifics as I have not walked in his shoes and he has not walked in mine. but I agree that using cables as tone controls intentionally or not is a very slippery slope. cables are not where you fix system or room problems. cables should simply allow the music to come through without adjustments.
most visitors to my system are blown away by the low distortion, low noise, energy and dynamics of my system. I don't credit any power cords for this, but they don't reduce these attributes either.
it would be interesting if I were to substitute stock Beldens or ddk's secret sauce power cords for all mine to see what the effect would be. but not interesting enough for me to bother with it.
they are not cheap, but not crazy expensive. I use 10 of them in my system.
the one place I use something else is my dart 458 mono blocks. when I got those I acquired a pair of Evolution Acoustics TRPC's (triple run power cords) to compare which use essentially the same wire in my speaker cables and speakers. they are huge and heavy. I compared these directly to the Absolute Fidelity and the EA's were better everywhere by a little and more than a little in dynamic flow being much more robust and authoritative. which made sense. the EA's were also twice as expensive as Gary's AF, but still not bank breakers compared to many.
since that time all these power cords have served me well and seemed to get out of the way of any sort of influence.
the only change I've made to power cords since acquiring these power cords is when the Furutech NCF tech plugs were introduced, I had my dealer install those on all these power cords last year. this upgrade was again synergistic with system character as being without tonal or FR influence.
we all have different power grids, rooms, and system approaches, so this are is not a one size fits all. there is no wrong approach. I see where ddk is coming from as my intentions are the same. I may not agree with him on the specifics as I have not walked in his shoes and he has not walked in mine. but I agree that using cables as tone controls intentionally or not is a very slippery slope. cables are not where you fix system or room problems. cables should simply allow the music to come through without adjustments.
most visitors to my system are blown away by the low distortion, low noise, energy and dynamics of my system. I don't credit any power cords for this, but they don't reduce these attributes either.
it would be interesting if I were to substitute stock Beldens or ddk's secret sauce power cords for all mine to see what the effect would be. but not interesting enough for me to bother with it.
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Synergy is everything. And if Dave gets the sound he desires using inexpensive pc's then he is blessed. The problem is there are many expensive cables out there that don't really perform any better than the inexpensive cables, they just sound different, or don't really sound any different. I was at a VSA owners listening room where he was auditioning a pair of monblocks on his VR-55 speakers. They supplied him with power cords that I believed retailed in the $2,500 range and I won't mention what brand. We listen with those pc's for a while then switched to the factory cords, except for the fact that the more expensive cables had a little less noise, I preferred the factory cords more. The more expensive cables altered the response of the speaker which I know so well, and even with the higher noise level of the factory cords, the balance was better and more enjoyable to listen to. The one thing I have learned over the last few years is you just can't throw a set a cables in your system and if the sound degrades that means those cables aren't any good. All the cables in the system interact with each other and the only true way to test cables is with a full loom. At least that's been my experience. Sometimes you get lucky and a mix of brands can have good synergy. And if you have well designed speakers and electronics it's going to be that much more important to have high quality cables for the system to stay balanced. But if your speakers aren't flat response, or voiced neutral to sound like live instruments, you may find yourself tuning the system with cables. Everything is so subjective. My wife would of been much happier if we could of used inexpensive cables lol. It's a crazy hobby we have.
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