What contributes to the "You are there" vs. "They are here" illusion?

[caesar]

What contributes to the "You are there" vs. "They are here" illusion? How much of it is the gear and how much is the recording?

 

[JackD201]

I disagree on many counts chiefly that you ain't there if all the stimulus you're getting is from your ears. Gotta feel it baby.

The number one contributor to a "you are there" illusion is the reverberant field generated by the loudspeakers and the rooms reflections. No you will not get exactly what's on the recording, you will be adding the reactions with the room. This is about creating the illusion however and not about fidelity.

The same can be said for soundstaging in general. You can not measure a soundstage in the signal however you can map out the acoustical pressure within the space where the two channels sum and cancel.

 

[Gregadd]

I differ from Tom. If we want o be transferred there we are going to have to add visual to the equation. In the meantime stereo does it fine for me.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

A great live recording, complete with carefully crafted illusions, and a very good bourbon. You are there is mostly about suspension of disbelief.

Tim

 

[microstrip]

(...) The number one contributor to a "you are there" illusion is the reverberant field generated by the loudspeakers and the rooms reflections. No you will not get exactly what's on the recording, you will be adding the reactions with the room. This is about creating the illusion however and not about fidelity.

Jack,
IMHO, the illusion can and must be part of the recording. The sound engineers do not know exactly what will be your system and your room, but they manipulate the recording in a way it will create the illusion in a typical situation (having room reflections) . There is some variance, but once you properly optimize the conditions to create the illusion (what I call fine tuning the system and room) most of your recordings sound much better. I consider that the illusion is the ultimate fidelity. Surely, it will depend on your previous experience.
Most of the illusion is not only spatial, but also connected with properties connected with a proper balance of microdynamics and macrodynamics (apologies for those who hate these terms).

 

[JackD201]

Jack,
IMHO, the illusion can and must be part of the recording. The sound engineers do not know exactly what will be your system and your room, but they manipulate the recording in a way it will create the illusion in a typical situation (having room reflections) . There is some variance, but once you properly optimize the conditions to create the illusion (what I call fine tuning the system and room) most of your recordings sound much better. I consider that the illusion is the ultimate fidelity. Surely, it will depend on your previous experience.
Most of the illusion is not only spatial, but also connected with properties connected with a proper balance of microdynamics and macrodynamics (apologies for those who hate these terms).

I think it is all about suspension of disbelief and that what we are discussing are just different shades of gray in that it's about the ease in which we are able to sustain it. Definitely the software should have requisite elements. I think that is a given hence why I left it out in the first place. Still you are not going to get the "you are there" experience from the best recording in say, a very dead room and a low output system. "They are here" is very much easier to accomplish as scale is not as big an issue. They could "be here" while being the size of chihuahuas. IMO "you are there" is about getting lifelike scale and lifelike dynamics because I listen mainly to large scale classical music. On the same system, I get "they are here" on small scale works.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Conventional stereo is they are here, binaural is you are there,

Yup.

I differ from Tom. If we want o be transferred there we are going to have to add visual to the equation. In the meantime stereo does it fine for me.

I often find that adding the visual accomplishes much but that sometimes it is more confining than the audio.

A great live recording, complete with carefully crafted illusions, and a very good bourbon. You are there is mostly about suspension of disbelief.

Yup and there are many possible adjuvents. I recall listening to a broadcast of Lohengrin when I had a high fever and was being bombarded with drugs. It was magnificent and, subjectively, lasted barely a half hour.

I disagree on many counts chiefly that you ain't there if all the stimulus you're getting is from your ears. Gotta feel it baby.

I know a number of headphone listeners who do their listening with subwoofers.

The number one contributor to a "you are there" illusion is the reverberant field generated by the loudspeakers and the rooms reflections. No you will not get exactly what's on the recording, you will be adding the reactions with the room. This is about creating the illusion however and not about fidelity.

The same can be said for soundstaging in general. You can not measure a soundstage in the signal however you can map out the acoustical pressure within the space where the two channels sum and cancel.

Ah but free yourself from the limitation of only two channels and the reverberant field can be that of the original recording site. That's where multichannel triumphs in bringing you there.

 

[JackD201]

I am on record here as saying that the most realistic portrayal I have heard is in Multichannel.

Unfortunately my music is in two channel.

regarding headphones and subs: they must be crossing over very high to get punch and not just rumble. That and some seriously impenetrable cans to keep sound from bleeding in.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Still you are not going to get the "you are there" experience from the best recording in say, a very dead room and a low output system.

Depends on how good the bourbon is...

Tim

 

[JackD201]

or the expectation bias

 

[microstrip]

Depends on how good the bourbon is...

Tim

As I never got bourbon during a performance, the bourbon will not help. But a flute of champagne or a glass of white wine while preparing to change the LP side can help ...May be one of the reasons I still do not own a music server!

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

or the expectation bias

There is a very fine line between a good bourbon and expectation bias.

Tim