What are the Top Horn Speakers in the World Today? Vox Olympian vs Avantgarde Trio vs ???

[Al M.]

Exactly, those who think 6db crossover is better than 24db never understand the main distortion of sound is speaker room interaction.

Room distortions can be among the worst.

Before I installed ceiling diffusers in my room I had plenty of distortion that could easily be mistaken for "digital harshness" and "digital hardness". Yet most of that distortion had from the ceiling, as proven upon its removal by the diffusers (only a small portion of the problem actually originated from my digital at the time).

When I discovered that with the hand clapping test I got a metallic "zing" echo back from the ceiling, I knew that it was trouble and I had to install diffusers.

Yet while the problems with my ceiling may have been particularly severe, I am quite certain that the ceiling is a substantial source of problems in many rooms, especially at elevated volume levels. And of course, on top of that the ceiling is far from the only problem when it comes to room distortions.

The main problem of every audio playback is ac power quality, speaker position (room speaker interaction) , amplifier speaker matching and quality of source (both records and transport/turntable)

Yes. As you say AC power quality is critical, and it can be the source of unexpected distortions as well.

I had the most bizarre experience in that regard when I installed a Furutech e609 6-way power distributor. That came after I already had upgraded my in-wall electrical and my power cords, all to substantial effect.

I didn't think much of installing the Furutech distributor (as a demo at the time) instead of my cheap distributors. Yet I heard the effect already just upon warming up the system with music at *background* volume level. Even at that low volume it was immediately clear how much hardness (also a distortion) had been removed from the sound. Hearing this so easily already at background volume was truly shocking.

Of course, I then was able to abundantly confirm the removal of hardness from the sound at normal listening volume on a good number of critical tracks (bass performance was improved as well, by the way).

The 2 grand that I spent on the Furutech distributor were among the best money I ever spent on my system.

EDIT: Posted before I saw Tom's comment above.

 

[bonzo75]

Converting SS cones to sets horns

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[Al M.]

Converting SS cones to sets horns

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I don't do Facebook. Other access?

 

[bonzo75]

I don't do Facebook. Other access?

Nope. That’s a fun video not audio video

 

[Kozak170]

In keeping with the topic, I’ve only heard the new Trio G3 in show conditions; I haven’t had the chance to hear the new AG G3 in a private setup the way I did the previous generation at Mike’s place. But I did hear the Trio G3 a few years ago at a show in Gothenburg, Sweden, and I was absolutely blown away. The dynamics and energy it delivered were way beyond speakers like Magico, Göbel, TAD... and even my own Wilsons. That setup was running with iTron amps, and the LP source had this incredibly organic and lifelike sound, full of texture and presence that really pulled you into the music.

Of course, I’d still like to hear the new generation of AG paired with SET amps, especially in simple "girl with guitar" stuff. I think that kind of combination could highlight their tonal richness and the intimacy in the midrange that SET amps are famous for, offering a different perspective compared to the sheer dynamic punch I heard with the iTron setup.

Fortunately I have photos of this one, otherwise some insulting hype marketing dealers would quickly label as fake those whose experiences don’t suit them, using the excuse of not having photos.

 

[jeff1225]

It’s not just about the horn mouth. Time alignment depends both on horn length and the acoustic centers of the drivers. For example, in the new AG Duo the tweeter horn was made about 20 cm longer so the mid and tweeter align acoustically. From the front you can still see the mid horn mouth extending further forward than the tweeter horn, and that’s intentional, if the tweeter horn mouth were pulled forward to be flush, time alignment would actually be lost. That shows why stepped/angled geometry matters. Cessaro’s top models do it with movable horns, but LV, AG G3, AC and Sadurni achieve alignment either through carefully calculated fixed geometry or, in some models, with adjustable tweeter and super tweeter horns.

Everything you said aligns with what I was saying, as by mouth I meant the edge of the horn (depending on horn geometry of course.)

 

[LL21]

In keeping with the topic, I’ve only heard the new Trio G3 in show conditions; I haven’t had the chance to hear the new AG G3 in a private setup the way I did the previous generation at Mike’s place. But I did hear the Trio G3 a few years ago at a show in Gothenburg, Sweden, and I was absolutely blown away. The dynamics and energy it delivered were way beyond speakers like Magico, Göbel, TAD... and even my own Wilsons. That setup was running with iTron amps, and the LP source had this incredibly organic and lifelike sound, full of texture and presence that really pulled you into the music.

Of course, I’d still like to hear the new generation of AG paired with SET amps, especially in simple "girl with guitar" stuff. I think that kind of combination could highlight their tonal richness and the intimacy in the midrange that SET amps are famous for, offering a different perspective compared to the sheer dynamic punch I heard with the iTron setup.

Fortunately I have photos of this one, otherwise some insulting hype marketing dealers would quickly label as fake those whose experiences don’t suit them, using the excuse of not having photos.
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Thanks for the continued comments and technical information and analysis...great reading! BTW, which Wilsons do you have?

 

[microstrip]

Simpler is often, though not aways, better. (...)

Although sometimes a simpler solution can be better, it is not because it is "simpler", but because some people are not able to properly design a complex solution. Many times things apparently extremely simple are really complex - e.g. SET output transformers are very complex to design.

Many people prefer simpler solutions because they like the sound of artifacts associated to simpler solutions.

I would say simpler is sometimes, but seldom better!

 

[Kozak170]

Thanks for the continued comments and technical information and analysis...great reading! BTW, which Wilsons do you have?

Appreciate it! I have Sasha 2.

 

[jeff1225]

Appreciate it! I have Sasha 2.

I appreciate your posts as well. Does the Sasha have a movable tweeter?

 

[treitz3]

Gentlemen....once again, we are derailing the thread.

Tom

 

[microstrip]

In keeping with the topic, I’ve only heard the new Trio G3 in show conditions; I haven’t had the chance to hear the new AG G3 in a private setup the way I did the previous generation at Mike’s place. But I did hear the Trio G3 a few years ago at a show in Gothenburg, Sweden, and I was absolutely blown away. The dynamics and energy it delivered were way beyond speakers like Magico, Göbel, TAD... and even my own Wilsons. That setup was running with iTron amps, and the LP source had this incredibly organic and lifelike sound, full of texture and presence that really pulled you into the music.

I have listened to Trio G3 in different systems and they surely have great dynamics and energy - I say it since I listened to the old Trio's Classico around 30 years ago in a large space. If someone praises energy at life like levels over everything else and the adequate space they are a strong contender to the best speaker. But as most of my listening time I praise aspects such as layering, imaging, delineation, fluidity, detail and micro dynamics my preference still tilts elsewhere.

 

[Kozak170]

I appreciate your posts as well. Does the Sasha have a movable tweeter?

Thanks! On the Sasha 2 the tweeter doesn’t move forward or backward, only its angle relative to the ear axis is adjusted. Since the baffle itself is sloped, when you set the angle correctly the tweeter lines up with the ear and achieves proper time alignment with the other drivers.

 

[Kozak170]

I have listened to Trio G3 in different systems and they surely have great dynamics and energy - I say it since I listened to the old Trio's Classico around 30 years ago in a large space. If someone praises energy at life like levels over everything else and the adequate space they are a strong contender to the best speaker. But as most of my listening time I praise aspects such as layering, imaging, delineation, fluidity, detail and micro dynamics my preference still tilts elsewhere.

IMO, for better layering, imaging, delineation, detail, and micro-dynamics, AG horns are best experienced in properly set up personal systems. I heard the previous generation of AG at Mike’s place, tuned by Jim Smith, and in terms of the parameters you mentioned they performed far better than the Avantgardes I heard at shows.

 

[microstrip]

IMO, for better layering, imaging, delineation, detail, and micro-dynamics, AG horns are best experienced in properly set up personal systems. I heard the previous generation of AG at Mike’s place, tuned by Jim Smith, and in terms of the parameters you mentioned they performed far better than the Avantgardes I heard at shows.

My reference for layering, imaging, delineation, detail, and micro-dynamics is still the presentation of the Wilson Audio WAMM Master Chronosonic speakers with the matching subs at our distributor about five years ago. It took two days of work to the Wilson people, including Peter McGrath, to set up the system - I remember they carried measurements of the speakers in the room and send them to the factory to get feedback.

I spend a long time the next days listening to my favorite recordings. It eclipsed all else I have listened in these aspects significantly. Surely at a price five more than times the cost of the Trio G3.

 

[LL21]

I have listened to Trio G3 in different systems and they surely have great dynamics and energy - I say it since I listened to the old Trio's Classico around 30 years ago in a large space. If someone praises energy at life like levels over everything else and the adequate space they are a strong contender to the best speaker. But as most of my listening time I praise aspects such as layering, imaging, delineation, fluidity, detail and micro dynamics my preference still tilts elsewhere.

I have to say that you may well have listened more and more carefully than I. In my one hour (the whole place to myself other than the dealer and his team)...I was not there actively to audition but was waiting for them to pack up another piece of equipment I had acquired...so I took the opportunity. So I got a full hour to listen but was not actively changing tracks of my own selection, etc, etc...and really testing.

BUT that said, I found that the system playing jazz showed exceptional 'reflexes' and the ability to reveal very very subtle nuances and inflections in voices, breath and the instrumental ensemble. Yes, I was particularly taken by its ability to fill the room effortlessly without actually sounding loud...ie it truly was effortlessly filling the room in a way that more closely resembles a real jazz ensemble than most any other system (other than the big Genesis 1s) I had ever heard before.

But it was not just this strength...I found it was also doing this by producing a rare amount of insight and nuance in the music which very much impressed me. I intuitively felt that the system was an electron microscope in its ability to uncover musical information. And again, it did so with any sense of 'pushing' the detail or 'stripping' it out of the musical passage and 'throwing it' at you. A very very rare ability was my own impression.
Again, you probably tested the Trio G3 more than when I was listening to it...but I came away very impressed and could fully believe that it was also able to be intimate and fluid. The area I suspected would be great...but which I would want to test is its ability to handle large scale massed strings with equal aplomb, dexterity and ease...without hardening in any way.

I will definitely listen and test it far far more rigorously if I ever had the correct opportunity, particularly if I were to consider it seriously.

 

[LL21]

My reference for layering, imaging, delineation, detail, and micro-dynamics is still the presentation of the Wilson Audio WAMM Master Chronosonic speakers with the matching subs at our distributor about five years ago. It took two days of work to the Wilson people, including Peter McGrath, to set up the system - I remember they carried measurements of the speakers in the room and send them to the factory to get feedback.

I spend a long time the next days listening to my favorite recordings. It eclipsed all else I have listened in these aspects significantly. Surely at a price five more than times the cost of the Trio G3.

That I could well believe. As someone who has always liked the big Wilsons and now own/owned 2 of them, I could well imagine DW's magnus opus was indeed very very special. But as you say...for 5x more!

 

[Kozak170]

My reference for layering, imaging, delineation, detail, and micro-dynamics is still the presentation of the Wilson Audio WAMM Master Chronosonic speakers with the matching subs at our distributor about five years ago. It took two days of work to the Wilson people, including Peter McGrath, to set up the system - I remember they carried measurements of the speakers in the room and send them to the factory to get feedback.

I spend a long time the next days listening to my favorite recordings. It eclipsed all else I have listened in these aspects significantly. Surely at a price five more than times the cost of the Trio G3.

I agree, the WAMM Master Chronosonic is in a league of its own when it comes to layering, imaging, delineation and overall refinement, especially when properly set up by the Wilson team. Still, to my ears the Trio has the edge in micro-dynamics and conveys a more ‘live’ feel in that respect. With the Trio you get a greater sense of immersion, as if the energy of the instruments is floating in the air, while the Wilson presents them more locked in space. The WAMM focuses more on absolute precision and spatial definition, while the Trio is about conveying energy and the feel of a live performance. Both have their value, and it ultimately comes down to the listener’s preference.

 

[LL21]

I agree, the WAMM Master Chronosonic is in a league of its own when it comes to layering, imaging, delineation and overall refinement, especially when properly set up by the Wilson team. Still, to my ears the Trio has the edge in micro-dynamics and conveys a more ‘live’ feel in that respect. With the Trio you get a greater sense of immersion, as if the energy of the instruments is floating in the air, while the Wilson presents them more locked in space. The WAMM focuses more on absolute precision and spatial definition, while the Trio is about conveying energy and the feel of a live performance. Both have their value, and it ultimately comes down to the listener’s preference.

Most interesting! Great to hear from people with such great experience listening to such speakers!

As you say...it comes down to the listener's preference. And I would add 'budget' as well! As Micro says, the WAMM is 5x the cost of the Trio which really says a lot about the Trio.

 

[Kozak170]

the WAMM is 5x the cost of the Trio which really says a lot about the Trio.

Yes, even with this fivefold price difference, it’s possible that someone would still prefer the Trio, as Jacob Heilbrunn has actually swapped the WAMM for the Trio.