Tripoint Troy Elite - Installed

Ron Resnick

Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
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#61
Does the Tripoint increase or decrease the potential to ground between each of the Tripoint-connected components and ground?

Why doesn’t the Tripoint create a ground loop?
 
May 12, 2017
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Texas
#62
Ron,
Sorry for the late response, I had 2 funerals last week and WBF is a good distraction. I ordered the Elite from Miguel and bought Audiocrack's Thor SE cables (5) when he decided to upgrade to the Emperor MkII cables. I'm all digital for now, so too many boxes hopefully won't become a problem. Mike has described the Elite better than I could so i'll try not to repeat anything. I have two dedicated lines used for the Nagra HD monoblocks, the Elite, and my center channel amp. I use a Transparent Reference Power Isolator for conditioning and plug my Esoteric cd, clock, Aurender, and processor into.

Nagra HD Mono - Both are connected to the same post on the Elite with Thor SE cable.
Nagra HD Pre - I just installed this and cannot use a Thor SE based on the short length but I am using Miguel's basic grounding cable in its place. Emperor cable has been ordered.
Esoteric K01x - Thor SE cable to a shared post with the clock
Esoteric G01 - Thor SE connected to shared post with cd player

All of my components include a dedicated grounding post. Tango and I as well have both both experienced a cable falling off. To my ears, there is a clear loss of dynamics, ease, and connection to the music if that makes any sense. I think my equipment would still sound great without the Elite but once I heard it all connected, its hard to look back. I mentioned in another thread, that the Elite enables my equipment to reveal information at the lowest levels giving dynamic swings that much more impact. I have young kids, so my listening levels at night are lower but bass still sounds visceral. I am betting that the addition of an Emperor cable to the HD pre will add more of the magic that I hear now.

Dave
 

Ron Resnick

Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
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#63
Thank you Dave for your reply!
 

Folsom

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Oct 26, 2015
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#64
Does the Tripoint increase or decrease the potential to ground between each of the Tripoint-connected components and ground?

Why doesn’t the Tripoint create a ground loop?
Your first question, that depends on a few things. It can only normalize the ground reference if they were different to start. The way that occurs (typically) is when you have seperate AC lines feeding your gear, but some of them are interrupted by other things on the line (fridge, fan, etc). I highly doubt you could have this problem with all your dedicated lines. In order for the normalizing to happen, the grounds have to touch.

As far as loops, it would form one if the grounds touch internally. It may not be a harmful or audible loop, but it would be there. It is harder to say what is going on since we cannot see inside them like we have with Entreq. But clearly they are making some stuff up, or elaborating profusely, because all of the things they say cannot be true in the way the consumer would believe them to be - physics will not allow it.
 
Oct 1, 2010
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Cleveland Ohio
#65
Does the Tripoint increase or decrease the potential to ground between each of the Tripoint-connected components and ground?
Why doesn’t the Tripoint create a ground loop?
a] Dedicated EMI/RFI passive filtration component (what is the frequency response of the filter?)
b] Eliminates ground loops (without transformers or capacitors?)
c] Provides impedance ground match for all your components (isn't the best impedance, zero ohms at all frequencies?)
{and to which ground does it refer. Safety Ground/Protective Earth or Planet Earth?}
d] Eliminates cheater plugs that degrades the sound (isn't it the opposite of a cheater plug?)
 

Audiocrack

Active Member
Aug 10, 2012
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#67
Ron (and other WBF members), please keep in mind that Tripoint is doing (much) more than ‘only’ grounding. Understandably Miguel is keeping his technical secrets for himself because the competition as well as the ‘do it yourself guys’ are closely watching. That said it amazes me again and again that people form all kind of (strong) opinions about the (effectiveness of) Tripoint components while they at the same have no experience with them. Puzzling but I suppose it is what it is.
 

Ron Resnick

Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
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Beverly Hills, CA
#68
Ron (and other WBF members), please keep in mind that Tripoint is doing (much) more than ‘only’ grounding. Understandably Miguel is keeping his technical secrets for himself because the competition as well as the ‘do it yourself guys’ are closely watching. That said it amazes me again and again that people form all kind of (strong) opinions about the (effectiveness of) Tripoint components while they at the same have no experience with them. Puzzling but I suppose it is what it is.
Respectfully, Audiocrack, please show me where you feel I have proffered any opinion about Tripoint’s effectiveness. As you stipulate Miguel chooses not to explain how it works.

I think I have posted only questions in an attempt to understand how it works. Contrary to your post the reason I am curious to understand how it works is because I assume it is effective.
 

Audiocrack

Active Member
Aug 10, 2012
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#69
Respectfully, Audiocrack, please show me where you feel I have proffered any opinion about Tripoint’s effectiveness. As you stipulate Miguel chooses not to explain how it works.

I think I have posted only questions in an attempt to understand how it works. Contrary to your post the reason I am curious to understand how it works is because I assume it is effective.
With my latest remark I was not referring to you at all, Ron. Fully understand your point of view. My sole intention was to warn you for the (strong) opinions of some of our members that have no experience at all with any of the Tripoint products but apparently pretend that they do (to a certain extent) know about it.
 
May 30, 2010
13,917
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Portugal
#70
Ron (and other WBF members), please keep in mind that Tripoint is doing (much) more than ‘only’ grounding. Understandably Miguel is keeping his technical secrets for himself because the competition as well as the ‘do it yourself guys’ are closely watching. That said it amazes me again and again that people form all kind of (strong) opinions about the (effectiveness of) Tripoint components while they at the same have no experience with them. Puzzling but I suppose it is what it is.
IMHO we must accept all strong opinions about this type of device (not only the Tripoint) without any astonishment. Their designers intentionally keep secret of all the basics and fundamental, not only the technical details, because they want to avoid any dangerous technical debate on them. There is a price to pay by this desire to keep people in the darkness - we all debate with the the same level of knowledge and the same inadequate arguments, but no one is above being debated.

The DIY people and competition spies are just an weak argument. Many designers know from experience that technical debates in free open forums are dangerous for marketing. Some times they enter it and are asked to retire by their distributors ... :)

I am currently using the Nordost QRT Qkore grounding system. I have listened to its effect in my system, but still do not have the faintest idea why it changes the sound like it does. But in reality it changes it!
 

Audiocrack

Active Member
Aug 10, 2012
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#71
IMHO we must accept all strong opinions about this type of device (not only the Tripoint) without any astonishment. Their designers intentionally keep secret of all the basics and fundamental, not only the technical details, because they want to avoid any dangerous technical debate on them. There is a price to pay by this desire to keep people in the darkness - we all debate with the the same level of knowledge and the same inadequate arguments, but no one is above being debated.

The DIY people and competition spies are just an weak argument. Many designers know from experience that technical debates in free open forums are dangerous for marketing. Some times they enter it and are asked to retire by their distributors ... :)

I am currently using the Nordost QRT Qkore grounding system. I have listened to its effect in my system, but still do not have the faintest idea why it changes the sound like it does. But in reality it changes it!
Respectfully disagree, Micro, as regards the weak argument regarding DIY and competition. To me it is completely understandable that someone who invested large sums of money and countless hours to reach the level he is at at the moment keeps all important knowlegde for himself.
 

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
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#72
a Tripoint Elite is a chassis ground focused product. it is connected to the power grid ground with a dummy plug (+ and - pins are dead ended.....only the ground prong is connected) into a duplex outlet with a permanently attached power cord.
Are people aware that any component's power cord ground wire is itself connected to chassis? Have you considered the following: a) use the exact same power cords all around, including length; b) either star-ground to one power distributor which properly implements star-grounding internally (e.g. same-length ground wiring between all outlets); c) or if using multiple power distributors, tie their chassis grounds; d) if using multiple outlets, they all need to be using the exact same wire, including lengths.

Or do people really think there is additional magic dust inside those boxes - beyond the internal star-grounding and single ground-wire-to-outlet-ground - which does anything that can withstand electrical engineering scrutiny????
 
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Folsom

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Oct 26, 2015
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#73
Ron (and other WBF members), please keep in mind that Tripoint is doing (much) more than ‘only’ grounding. Understandably Miguel is keeping his technical secrets for himself because the competition as well as the ‘do it yourself guys’ are closely watching. That said it amazes me again and again that people form all kind of (strong) opinions about the (effectiveness of) Tripoint components while they at the same have no experience with them. Puzzling but I suppose it is what it is.
The secret is which claims on the website are a lie. They cannot all be true - not in this reality. But if I was him I wouldn't share any information either. Fact is that even though it probably just spews RF into the lines, it creates a result people pay money for and are pleased with.

Or do you really think there is additional magic dust inside those boxes - beyond the single ground-wire to outlet ground - which does anything that can withstand electrical engineering scrutiny????
As stated before, it either does or does not create loops while the vice-versa is that it either does or does not normalize potentials. And this can be useful sometimes when you have too many separate but dirty lines back to the breaker. It isn't ideal to make extra paths, but it beats the hell out of irritating noise that is audible. The smart solution to normalize potentials is to the shortest runs possible. But isn't what happens when you're amps are by the speakers on separate AC lines than your sources all on the same one on a rack - where extra cables are a moot point essentially. So the best advice is probably don't use separate AC lines unless they're dedicated.

As far as engineering, that's a loaded question. Technically anything like this that would be almost assured to act like an antenna (based on all grounding boxes thus far, their description, and when I've heard them) is horrible "engineering". But that depends on what you're engineering for, if your goals are to engineer for exactly what they do, then you're doing awesome. But most engineers are waaay toooo egotistical to ever accept the idea of purposely loading up some RF.
 
May 12, 2017
143
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16
Texas
#74
Are people aware that any component's power cord ground wire is itself connected to chassis? Have you considered the following: a) use the exact same power cords all around, including length; b) either star-ground to one power distributor which properly implements star-grounding internally (e.g. same-length ground wiring between all outlets); c) or if using multiple power distributors, tie their chassis grounds; d) if using multiple outlets, they all need to be using the exact same wire, including lengths.

Or do people really think there is additional magic dust inside those boxes - beyond the internal star-grounding and single ground-wire-to-outlet-ground - which does anything that can withstand electrical engineering scrutiny????
I'm not disputing this, I have no technical knowledge of how or why Tripoint works but if the PC is an acceptable chassis ground connection, why do so many manufacturers add grounding terminals?

Dave
 

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
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#75
why do so many manufacturers add grounding terminals?

Dave
So many? Who? If there are grounding terminals, they are there for you to tie them together, in case your power cords or power lines are different, and/or you just don't star-ground any which way; and you should still tie them with same-length wires. The only grounding terminals I have actually seen are on the Shunyata power distributors, which is the right thing to offer, so you can tie different distributors together, as I said earlier. They have posted pictures of that as well, and it's probably in the manuals as well.
 
May 12, 2017
143
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Texas
#76
So many? Who? If there are grounding terminals, they are there for you to tie them together, in case your power cords or power lines are different, and/or you just don't star-ground any which way; and you should still tie them with same-length wires. The only grounding terminals I have actually seen are on the Shunyata power distributors, which is the right thing to offer, so you can tie different distributors together, as I said earlier. They have posted pictures of that as well, and it's probably in the manuals as well.
Fair enough, I should have said all of my equipment. Nagra and Esoteric have them as well as my Mcintosh processor and the new OPPO 205. Thanks for the clarification.

Dave
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
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#77
I cannot speak technically about what the Tripoint does. honestly I don't care about that.

but what I hear is more like an improved power supply, or adding a choke or 'better' choke' (or other such thing) than just related to proper ground. this is where so many are missing the message of what it's doing. these theories fall way short of the scope of things it affects and how it's doing it. it almost like you have to first assume that all the AC ground circuit for each piece of gear is already perfect. now what more can be done? now you are thinking in the right direction.

a bunch of wires and copper bars just touches the surface....however perfectly placed.......is not really what is going on.
 

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
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Boston, MA
#78
I cannot speak technically about what the Tripoint does. honestly I don't care about that.

but what I hear is more like an improved power supply, or adding a choke or 'better' choke' (or other such thing) than just related to proper ground. this is where so many are missing the message of what it's doing. these theories fall way short of the scope of things it affects and how it's doing it. it almost like you have to first assume that all the AC ground circuit for each piece of gear is already perfect. now what more can be done? now you are thinking in the right direction.

a bunch of wires and copper bars just touches the surface....however perfectly placed.......is not really what is going on.
Apparently, people have not experimented with proper grounding before resorting to this voodoo, hence all these claims of superiority. That's the message that's been missing. It's not doing anything more than what proper engineering practices with respect to proper grounding can do.
 
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Folsom

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Oct 26, 2015
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#79
Apparently, people have not experimented with proper grounding before resorting to this voodoo, hence all these claims of superiority. That's the message that's been missing.
They have different goals, mate.

Mike likes his insane soundstage, and being able read the whole musical scene to a high degree. Your grounding methods do not exaggerate the high frequencies to create this same type of sound. You have entirely different goals.
 
May 12, 2017
143
0
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Texas
#80
Apparently, people have not experimented with proper grounding before resorting to this voodoo, hence all these claims of superiority. That's the message that's been missing.
Voodoo? Have you tried a Tripoint product? I'm not offended, just curious. What is proper grounding and how does Tripoint not qualify? I've never claimed superiority but I don't want it out of my system either.

Dave