tima's DIY RCM

[tima]

Tim:

Not sure you noticed, but the motor slides up and down secured in-place with a knurled knob shown on Page 4 of 7 of the Viny Maid manual, it's the knob below the motor assembly. Now the Vinyl Maid manual says nothing about this in the setup but at the end Step 8 - Drying - Detach the record holder from the machine, if the space inside the ultrasonic cleaner doesn’t allow to remove the holder freely then lift the holder using the knob at the rear of the main pillar.

...

Neil - Not sure you saw this post.

I'd like to dig a bit further into the Vinyl Maid + Elmasonic P60 combination based on my experience with the Kuzma RD and Elmasonic P120. At this point I consider the VM + P60 combo as ... how shall I say this ... as hypothetical or theoretical. Why? We have no accounts from end-users of this combinations. That doesn't mean there are or are not such end-users, only we have not heard from anyone using it -- at least on this forum. Show me 5-10 end-users with 6 months experience with the VM+P60 and maybe we can all be better informed.

I suggest you read this post with the VM PDF manual open so you can see the photos of the machine to follow what I"m going to describe.

I am curious about the ergonomics of the VM+P60 combo.

I"m not suggesting the VM will not fit the P60. The tank meets the minimum dimensional requirements of the VM (300mm H x 120mm W x 150mm D) tank, but it sure can not be any smaller. I'm not saying the combination can or can not work. I want to think about / dig in to practical use

What I've learned using my own system is the relatively tight tolerances involved in physically positioning a tank with a rotisserie. Both the Elma units (P60 & P120) measure internal width at 300mm which is ~11.8 inches, with a vinyl record being 12" in width. For any rotisserie: 1) the spindle going through the record hole must sit above the rim of the tank. 2) Enough clearance is needed at the records edge/perimeter in the tank to clear the sides of the tank sufficient to wet the record to the edge of its runout area. The amount of runout varies record to record.

From pictures of the Vinyl Maid, the post holding its motor and magnetic coupler attaches to a plexiglass base and the UT sits on that base. That means a tank full of water must be exactly positioned relative to the motor / spindle, because once in position the tank, base and motor post are wedded to one another by the weight of the filled tank. Bear with me a bit longer ...

Given the above, I'd say forget about mounting 5 records, I believe the tolerances are too tight to yield the necessary space between the records edge and the two sidewalls of the tank to allow the records to spin freely. I'd say you want 1/16th of an inch between the record edge and a sidewall. And you want at least more than 1-inch between the records and between the end records and the front-rear tank walls. Elma tank corners are rounded. Note -- no picture on th VM Web site shows 5 records on its spindle in the tank, the max shown is 4.

Now. think about a VM spindle with a record load. (Loading it is an issue in itself that I can discuss in another post.) How will you hold the record loaded spindle? The spindle's screw-on knob is probably not big enough to hold it securely in with one hand so you'll hold the magnetic coupler with your other hand. With the motor unit at actual wash height you need to lower the records into the tank by hand and attach the spindle to the motor's magentic coupling. Again, the more records the more careful you need to be in doing this.

I"m thinking the VM motor unit needs to be raised to its full height for attaching the record holder, then lower the records into the tank. Loosen the post-height knob, raise the post, tighten the post-height knob to lock it in place. Then hold the records with the knob on the spindle, use the other hand to guide the magnetic couplings together. Still holding the spindle knob release the post-height knob and lower the records into the tank to the correct height to cover the groove area, then tighten the post height knob to lock the post in place. It would be good to examine the post height tightening knob to see how well it works and will it stand up over time to repeated tightening.

It may be possible to attach the magnetically coupled spindle to the fully raised post, and load records and separator discs in that position. What is unknown is the strength of the magnetic coupling. Is it strong enough such that it will not detach from the post by the slight jiggling that will occur while loading the spindle? Maybe that could work but I'd probably feel more secure loading the spindle while it is off the post.

Removal of the spindle of records is the reverse. Hold the spindle knob with one hand, release the post height knob with the other, raise the records out of the tank, tighten the post height knob, break the magnetic coupling to release the spindle from the post. If you will air dry the records and you're using only a single spindle, you could leave the records attached to the post and let them dry in place.

I'm thinking it could be much easier to go through the above with 2-3 records on the spindle. In Neil's suggestion of the P60+VM combination he likewise references using it for 2-3 records. For now I'm thinking it is an ergonomic over-reach each to assume cleaning 5 records with a P60 size tank. What do you think?

 

[Neil.Antin]

Neil - Not sure you saw this post.

Tim:

Got it - Yes you did not miss it. Couple other items to consider, the P60 is 5.1-kg + ~0.57 Kg (bath water) = 5.67-kg = ~12.5-lbs. That's a fair amount of weight on the Vinyl Maid base and their new design aluminum tower design is appears very rigid.

But your question as to how strong the magnet is, is a fair question. The record stack weight with 3-records (180-gm/ea) should be less than ~2.5-lbs. So, it does not need much magnetic power to hold it to the motor drive.

Take care,
Neil

 

[tima]

Couple other items to consider, the P60 is 5.1-kg + ~0.57 Kg (bath water) = 5.67-kg = ~12.5-lbs. That's a fair amount of weight on the Vinyl Maid base and their new design aluminum tower design is appears very rigid.

I see that as something of a design limitation in as much as the tank must be in very precise position relative to the tower to obtain sufficient clearance for all records to rotate freely. Once the tank has water in it no adjustment is possible.

The magnetic coupling strength must be strong enough to handle moving a spindle's worth of records up and down the tower. The clamping mechanism to secure the record holder looks like plastic on plastic relying on friction and clamp tightness to keep the records in position. How long will that hold up over time? U

The Vinyl Maid is an interesting but untested option -- we keyboard jockey's can speculate about it, but I want to see some real world use, say 150 records cleaned by each of multiple end users before I would reccomend it. It may turn out to go the route of other rotisserie before it or it may be judged an excellent choice.

 

[Neil.Antin]

I see that as something of a design limitation in as much as the tank must be in very precise position relative to the tower to obtain sufficient clearance for all records to rotate freely. Once the tank has water in it no adjustment is possible.

The magnetic coupling strength must be strong enough to handle moving a spindle's worth of records up and down the tower. The clamping mechanism to secure the record holder looks like plastic on plastic relying on friction and clamp tightness to keep the records in position. How long will that hold up over time? U

The Vinyl Maid is an interesting but untested option -- we keyboard jockey's can speculate about it, but I want to see some real world use, say 150 records cleaned by each of multiple end users before I would reccomend it. It may turn out to go the route of other rotisserie before it or it may be judged an excellent choice.

Tim:

You and I see things differently based on our different professions.

When you first set this up, the tank is empty, and you would have a record that you would use as a guide to set things in place. Otherwise, the amount of water 6L only adds only about 12% weight to the tank weight.

Regarding the record hub to motor hub, it's a good secure design. The record hub slides completely over the motor hub and is then clamped into position by the magnet. And, if you look at page 5 of 7 of the manual that is a big magnet and if were to be (which it is not) a high-performance neodymium magnet it could easily achieve over 50-lbs clamping force. Additionally, the torque that the records apply to the hub are trivial. If we assume the record weight at 1.5-lbs and its center of gravity at 4-inches from the hub, the torque on the hub is (4-in)(1.5-lbs) = 6 inch-lbs; this is not even the equivalence of finger-tight. So moving the records up and down will not be a problem. The only item is how much force is required to separate the record hub from the motor hub. It may be a two-hand job, one on the motor, the other on the record stack. But a simple call to the vendor would answer that.

Regarding the record stack clamping mechanism, they are using a metal spindle, you can see the metal bolt hex head on page 5 of 7. The record end side plastic knurled clamping knob likely has a metal insert - that's the normal design. Otherwise, the long-term reliability item would be the durability of the foam disks.

Otherwise, here is at least one user Share your Record Cleaning Machine Experience | Audiokarma Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums, if I find others I will update.

But understand, I am not challenging the Kuzma design, which is very well designed, only bringing to people's attention (the audience that is reading) that beyond the inexpensive Chinese spinners, there is a UK alternative that is very similar to the VinylStack spinner that has a long history of successful use.

Peace,
Neil

 

[tima]

When you first set this up, the tank is empty, and you would have a record that you would use as a guide to set things in place. Otherwise, the amount of water 6L only adds only about 12% weight to the tank weight.

No problems, Neil.

I just want to hear medium term usage reports about the VM before suggesting purchase. I'm trying to think through the step-by-step hands-on of using the VM with a tank, based on the pictures I see. From mounting records to dismounting records. It is my understanding that both of us are basing our comments on the pictures in the manual; if you have knowledges beyond that, I defer.

Yes of course, the smart thing to do is to position the tank loaded with 3 records with the VM plexiglass base before adding water. If a stiff drain hose is attached to the P60, that is another factor in positioning. The tank needs to stay in a precise position while filling and afterwards. 6L H2O is roughly 13.25 lbs, the P60 tank weighs about 11 pounds (5.1 kg according to Elma.) Perhaps put a thin non-slip map under the plexiglass base before filling the tank. Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying it can't be done but it is practical issue that comes with the VM and worth thinking about. If I were to do a review of the Vinyl Maid and compare it to what I know, I would mention the various points I find when setting it up and using the VM, all with the advantage of doing so hands-on.

But understand, I am not challenging the Kuzma design, which is very well designed, only bringing to people's attention (the audience that is reading) that beyond the inexpensive Chinese spinners, there is a UK alternative that is very similar to the VinylStack spinner that has a long history of successful use.

Yes, I understand. And I believe we are in agreement in supporting quality development of RCMs, DIY efforts and record cleaning in general. Your work and the giving of your time in this area is world-class and we truly appreciate your participation here. The Kuzma RD has proven itself over years of use; its design, materials (stainless steel support structure) and its inclusion of spindle support for mounting and drying records, along with its ease of use, is all top-notch. I wish success to the VM effort proving itself as a lower cost rotisserie option.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

Wrt your question, the Elma P120 + Kuzma RD can reasonably do 5 records at a time, using 2 spacers between the records. You can use 1 spacer between the records and wash more at once, but I do not do that because I believe 1 spacer does not offer enough space between the records for effective cleaning. 1 Kuzma spacer = ~14mm or .055 inches. I'm confident Neil has thoughts on the space needed between records.

Another option is pairing the Elma P60 with the Kuzma RD. You'd still be at ~3 records at a time. You save the cost difference between the P120 and P60.

Granted the VM is less expensive than the Kuzma RD; I see that as its sole virtue. I believe the RD is the better buy given that price difference. My longish thought-experiment post above about the VM was to walk through about using the VM based on what I know from loading and unloading records with the RD and adjusting the RD to mate with the P120. Based on my thought-experiment I imagine the VM is awkward and less secure to use -- this is my personal opinion in the absence of any real world reports. This is about the manual handling of records in the cleaning procedure, which imo is as much if not more of a concern as any aspect of cleaning records.

The other problematic aspect of using the VM I alluded to has to do with mounting and unmounting records from its spindle and using the VM record holder in general. I load records on the Kuzma spindle the same way I do when putting a record on a turntable - with the spindle pointing straight up -- I'm used to that and comfortable with it. Imagine putting the VM record holder on a flat surface, spindle pointing up. It can sit like that but I imagine it is not a stable platform for loading because the magnetic coupler base is small and round. Same for unloading. You will be holding the record by its edges with both hand with nothing to hold or stabilize the record holder. Same for unloading.

The RD includes a very heavy base for holding its spindle straight up for loading and unloading. It also allows holding the spindle at a 45-degree angle for record drying. I have two bases, two spindles, and two sets of spacers. This lets me do two spindles worth of cleaning back to back. I prepare one spindle, put it on the RD (by just laying it in two notches that support both ends of the spindle.) Then I load the second spindle with records. When I remove the first spindle from my wash tank and move it to my rinse tank it is simple to do. I take the second spindle off of its holder and mount it in the wash tank, so I'm doin a wash cycle for it while the first spindle is rinsing. When the first spindle is done rinsing I put it back on its base at 45-degree angle for drying.

If you take the VM spindle off its coupling it can only sit vertically with its records parallel to whatever it is sitting on. There is no opportunity for water to run off the records in that position because they are flat.

I could rattle on in what is already a tortured post about the step by step process. You can do the same walk-through for yourself asking yourself how do I use the VM spindle and hold my hands at each step to manipulate the records.

Thank you 'tima' for yet another very detailed and very informative post on your invaluable experiences living with and using the Kuzma RD.. Very much appreciated. Ypu have also raised some very interesting and important points and concerns regarding the possible practicalities of using the 'The Vinyl Maid'.
If we did a risk assessment (particularly regarding the possibility of damaging priceless / very sought after LPs) between the Kuzma RD and The Vinyl Maid, I would imagine the Kuzma RD would win hands down ! This risk assessment would however require assumptions with the use and operation of 'The Vinyl Maid' only by reading it's manual and our thought process and imagination.

However, from both your experiences 'tima' and other people experiences on using the Kuzma RD, it seems to be the best choice out of the two. And if assurances of zero damage to an LP (assuming correct loading and unloading of the LPs) with the Kuzma RD, this would make the differences in price with 'The Vinyl Maid' more justifiable i.e. on the thinking that it could be possible to scratch or create more damage to a high prized LP that is currently worth say circa US$600+ and either difficult to replace or near impossible !

Thinking of raising a thread / post dedicated for peoples experiences of using and owning the 'The Vinyl Source' 'The Vinyl Maid' latest model 'MK 11b' that Vinyl Source currently advertise on their website ?

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

At this point, I dump bath water every 20 records, sometimes more frequently.
1.I wonder if DIY/Elma is even worth the trouble given lightness of use by @ Bonesy . I haven't owned the Degritter, I guess the question is long term durability- the KL I have is now probably what, near 8 years old and life expectations for these machines are not forever. (Mine is later production, has the extra cooling but eliminated the toggle, I could place it more precisely). I did run a fair amount of records through it once upon a time, but now, I'm not buying or cleaning as much.
2. I also wonder since Bonesy is doing a pre-clean and rinse on the Monks, whether to bother with a surfactant/additive in the US machine since the challenge is then getting it off. My best removal method, as mentioned is a post US rinse/vacuum on the Monks which adds another step/platter mat swaps, etc.
3. Maybe I'm getting tired and lazy (not really) but Bonesy is not going solely US for cleaning. His primary cleaning is the Monks and the US is adding an additional dimension. Will the Elma be more durable/long-lived? Maybe. I do like the so-called medical/industrial quality of the thing, but it seems like DeGritter is supporting the machines (that's true until stuff happens- look at Lamm or ARC - hopefully both are back up and running).
4. This isn't meant to stir controversy over "best" results, but to me, part of the equation as you, Neil, point out is a method is only good if you use the thing and simplification may be justified here. I pose that as a question rather than a conclusion.

Thank you 'Bill Hart' for your posting that raises some interesting challenges and points of discussion. Very much appreciated.

Yes you are 100% with my thinking that the KM RCM is the primary RCM for hopefully removing most of the gunk from the grooves with the US RCM being used to remove very small gunk deep within the grooves the KM can't remove and also as a so called 'polisher' and then a final rinse with the KM RCM using pure distilled water.

As you also say, the quantity of LPs I have to clean isn't that huge and I can clean the back log of them (that have already been cleaned with the KM RCM) that will be ultrasonically cleaned over a reasonable period of time (mostly at weekends), with future new and second hand record purchases received during the week and at weekends (say max 5 LPs per week) will also be washed at weekends along with the back log LPs.

So with further thinking and a re-calculation on my record quantities of my LPs that will be ultrasonically cleaned;
My max number of LPs for the back log of approx. 500 LPs to be ultrasonically cleaned being say 20 to 30 LPs on a Saturday over say 5 hours (i.e. 4 to 6 LPs per hour), and the same on a Sunday (also over say 5 hours) so max 40 to 60 LPs ultrasonically cleaned over a complete weekend therefore taking max 12.5 / 13 to weekends or min 8.33 / 9 weekends i.e. say approx. 2.5 to 3 months (allowing for new purchases - see below) to ultrasonically clean the back log.
Then if I say an extra 2 LPs per week for future LP purchases which will also need to be KM RCM cleaned first and then ultrasonically cleaned along with the back log of LPs that are being ultrasonically cleaned. Therefore if I say, average 2 new LP purchases per week over the 2.5 to 3 months i.e. 2 LPs to be cleaned over a weekend whilst I am ultrasonically cleaning the 500 LP back log, the back log of ultrasonic cleaning will still take approx. 2.5 to 3 months (as given above).

So from the above LP quantities in the weekend cleaning batches I need to do (for the back log and new future LP purchases) , assuming a US RCM cleaning cycle takes say max 15 mins (most probably a lot less i.e. 5mins ???) a US RCM should be capable of cleaning 2 LPs at once, although I could have just one LP cleaned at any one time if I used say a 5min ultrasonic cleaning time.

Therefore, with further and a more detailed assessment of quantity of LPs I need to ultrasonically clean as given above, I can also now consider a single LP US RCM !

What would be so great though (and food for thought / thinking aloud), is to have a very powerful electronic microscope that is affordable to buy for DIY home use so we can see how clean the record is at each stage of the process. I may find that the KM RCM cleans my LPs enough and I don't need a US RCM at all or it could be the complete opposite and the KM RCM leaves a load of gunk untouched and the US RCM can remove it all ! I have used my Dino-Lite 700 to 900x USB Microscope on the solid and highly accurate adjustable Dino-Lite RK10-A Stand and although I can see the record grooves and some debris left behind it isn't powerful enough to see right into the deep depths of the record grooves.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

Tim:

You and I see things differently based on our different professions.

When you first set this up, the tank is empty, and you would have a record that you would use as a guide to set things in place. Otherwise, the amount of water 6L only adds only about 12% weight to the tank weight.

Regarding the record hub to motor hub, it's a good secure design. The record hub slides completely over the motor hub and is then clamped into position by the magnet. And, if you look at page 5 of 7 of the manual that is a big magnet and if were to be (which it is not) a high-performance neodymium magnet it could easily achieve over 50-lbs clamping force. Additionally, the torque that the records apply to the hub are trivial. If we assume the record weight at 1.5-lbs and its center of gravity at 4-inches from the hub, the torque on the hub is (4-in)(1.5-lbs) = 6 inch-lbs; this is not even the equivalence of finger-tight. So moving the records up and down will not be a problem. The only item is how much force is required to separate the record hub from the motor hub. It may be a two-hand job, one on the motor, the other on the record stack. But a simple call to the vendor would answer that.

Regarding the record stack clamping mechanism, they are using a metal spindle, you can see the metal bolt hex head on page 5 of 7. The record end side plastic knurled clamping knob likely has a metal insert - that's the normal design. Otherwise, the long-term reliability item would be the durability of the foam disks.

Otherwise, here is at least one user Share your Record Cleaning Machine Experience | Audiokarma Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums, if I find others I will update.

But understand, I am not challenging the Kuzma design, which is very well designed, only bringing to people's attention (the audience that is reading) that beyond the inexpensive Chinese spinners, there is a UK alternative that is very similar to the VinylStack spinner that has a long history of successful use.

Peace,
Neil

Thank you Neil. Much appreciated.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

Looks like 'The Vinyl Source' 'The Vinyl Maid' latest model 'MK 11b' has been reduced in price from £320 to £280;

Vinyl Record Cleaner LP Washer Cleaning Machine 5 Records Per Batch, UK made | vinyl

The Vinyl Source - The Vinyl Maid Mk IIb While the MkII was a completely redesigned machine 90% different from the Mk I the MkIIb introduceds ome improvements to the already outstanding design of the MkII. The 8mm thick base made from black glossy perspex is now much larger, handy if you decide...

www.thevinylsource.co.uk

 

[tima]

Thank you 'tima' for yet another very detailed and very informative post on your invaluable experiences living with and using the Kuzma RD.. Very much appreciated. Ypu have also raised some very interesting and important points and concerns regarding the possible practicalities of using the 'The Vinyl Maid'.
If we did a risk assessment (particularly regarding the possibility of damaging priceless / very sought after LPs) between the Kuzma RD and The Vinyl Maid, I would imagine the Kuzma RD would win hands down ! This risk assessment would however require assumptions with the use and operation of 'The Vinyl Maid' only by reading it's manual and our thought process and imagination.

However, from both your experiences 'tima' and other people experiences on using the Kuzma RD, it seems to be the best choice out of the two. And if assurances of zero damage to an LP (assuming correct loading and unloading of the LPs) with the Kuzma RD, this would make the differences in price with 'The Vinyl Maid' more justifiable i.e. on the thinking that it could be possible to scratch or create more damage to a high prized LP that is currently worth say circa US$600+ and either difficult to replace or near impossible !

Thinking of raising a thread / post dedicated for peoples experiences of using and owning the 'The Vinyl Source' 'The Vinyl Maid' latest model 'MK 11b' that Vinyl Source currently advertise on their website ?

Handling records requires attention whatever you do with them. We vinylists know this, but which among us has never dinged an album?

I don't want to say any system has dangers or is more likely to lead to harming a record if I have not personally used it. Although I am critiquing the VM, I am not dissing it or claiming it comes with risk - I"ve never used it. As I said, I wish the Vinyl Maid success in proving itself an option.

At some point we ask ourselves "what is best for me" and we each answer that in our own way. Just as you and Bill H choose the Monks - a top quality horizontal vacuum, I choose the top quality Kuzma RD. around which to build my ultrasonic system. Originally I used the RD with a lower quality ultrasonic tank. It easily moved to the Elmasonic P120 and I bought a second RD to use with my Elmasonic rinse tank. You can see the beginning part of my journey in three articles on Bill Hart's excellent Web site The Vinyl Press. The first article (below) has several pictures of the RD components being put together. I met Neil through those articles and we have some lengthy talks in their comment section -- he is largely responsible for the evolution described in this thread.

Tima’s DIY RCM - The Vinyl Press

Tima’s DIY RCM As a dedicated vinylista, I’ve been cleaning records for over thirty years. Sound familiar? Cleaning techniques and technologies evolved across that time and my approach changed with the times. I’ve been using a Loricraft RC3 point nozzle machine and more recently an Audio Desk...

thevinylpress.com

As I said, we each make our own choices on what we want to use and what we want to spend. Vinyl is my only medium and I believe in curating my collection so I and its next owners can continue enjoying playing records. In 2016 I chose to pay for the best quality rotisserie available at the time. And imo its quality continues to warrant paying more. I am completely satisfied with Franc Kuzma's customer service. Early on I had a problem with the unit's motor - Franc sent me a new motor and an extra motor for backup, all at no cost.

I see above you mention the quantity of LPs you have. I assume that is a factor in your choices. You might do fine with the VM rotisserie.

As far as a Vinyl Maid thread goes, it is probably a good idea to pull the pieces of discussion together in a place dedicated to that discussion. The posts here can stay but I can copy them to a new VM thread. Good idea. Heck this thread is pretty long and I should create an index for it.

 

[Neil.Antin]

Yes, I understand. And I believe we are in agreement in supporting quality development of RCMs, DIY efforts and record cleaning in general.

Tim:

Thanks for the kind words and yes we are in agreement. But let eat me crow here for a minute, recalling your decimal point typo, well darn it I did the same. 1L = 1kg. So, when the ~6L of water are added, the weight of the Elmasonic P60 just doubled to over 20-lbs.

Take care,
Neil

 

[tima]

The Joy of Record Collecting.

10 LPs from my new Mint box set of Mahler Symphonies 5 - 10 waiting on their spindles for a trip to the cleaners.






Philips 6761 001 1972

 

[tima]

While taking the 10 new records out of their sleeves (which are not reuseable but I keep anyway) the ultrasonic tanks get started to Degas the water. Both filter pumps are going. This runs for 10 minutes.





When Degas is finished, the filter pump is turned off. The first spindle of records is loaded and its wash cycle begins. The wash cycle has two phases. The first phase is run at 80% power for 10 minutes under the P120's auto frequency change mode where the tank runs at 37kHz for 30 seconds then it switches to 80kHz for 30 seconds, back and forth. The second phase runs for 10 minutes at 80kHz at 100% power. I do not turn the heater on. At the start the water is nominally at 28°-30° F. As the two phases progress the water will heat and finally get to ~35° at the very end of 20 minutes.



Then I load the first spindle into the S120 Rinse Tank and put the second spindle into the P120 Wash Tank for the same cycle. The wash water has cooled considerably. The rinse goes for 10 minutes at full power 37kHz and no heat applied. The S120 tank is smaller and cheaper with fewer controls. Using the Kuzma RD rotisserie makes it very simple to move a spindle of 5 records from one tank to the next.



Rinsing

 

[tima]

When each spindle of records completes its rinse cycle it goes back into my audio room for drying. Air drying takes ~15-20 minutes depending on room temp.




Notice the small HEPA filter in the lower right.

Gustav is smiling, his symphonies are clean.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

While taking the 10 new records out of their sleeves (which are not reuseable but I keep anyway) the ultrasonic tanks get started to Degas the water. Both filter pumps are going. This runs for 10 minutes.

View attachment 115492

View attachment 115494

When Degas is finished, the filter pump is turned off. The first spindle of records is loaded and its wash cycle begins. The wash cycle has two phases. The first phase is run at 80% power for 10 minutes under the P120's auto frequency change mode where the tank runs at 37kHz for 30 seconds then it switches to 80kHz for 30 seconds, back and forth. The second phase runs for 10 minutes at 80kHz at 100% power. I do not turn the heater on. At the start the water is nominally at 28°-30° F. As the two phases progress the water will heat and finally get to ~35° at the very end of 20 minutes.

View attachment 115493

Then I load the first spindle into the S120 Rinse Tank and put the second spindle into the P120 Wash Tank for the same cycle. The wash water has cooled considerably. The rinse goes for 10 minutes at full power 37kHz and no heat applied. The S120 tank is smaller and cheaper with fewer controls. Using the Kuzma RD rotisserie makes it very simple to move a spindle of 5 records from one tank to the next.

View attachment 115495

Rinsing

View attachment 115496

Awesome. Thank you 'tima' for this post with great photos and explanation of the main steps.

Am I reading it correctly that you don't put the Elmasonic's heating on at all and use the water at its non heated supply temperature ?

Also notice that you have different circulating pumps and filter housings for each of the tanks ?

Are the filter elements the same micron particulate capture / filter efficiency ?

 

[tima]

Awesome. Thank you 'tima' for this post with great photos and explanation of the main steps.

Am I reading it correctly that you don't put the Elmasonic's heating on at all and use the water at its non heated supply temperature ?

Also notice that you have different circulating pumps and filter housings for each of the tanks ?

Are the filter elements the same micron particulate capture / filter efficiency ?

Hi BJ - thanks.

I used to use the heater, setting it at 30 degrees F. Now only use it in winter when the air is cooler. The ultrasonic action will heat the water by itself.

Yes, the two filter systems are entirely different. For the wash tank I wanted the cleanest water I could get. There I use a 0.2 micron filter and a substantial pump. At 0.2 micron level filtration -- that's bacteria level -- the water is v-e-r-y clean.

For the rinse tank I used an early filter system I built from scratchfor my original DIY RCM years back. That one is described in my write-ups posted on The Vinyl Press -- links are in the first post of this thread.


my original DIY RCM


origina pump and l filter circa 2016


update from small to larger filter with smaller pore size -- that's on the Rinse Tank today, same pump as above.

We make it so easy for you guys Below is my parts list for both filter systems -- I wrote this up a whle back. Here I did not check the links. @Neil.Antin l and I picked the large pump; he has since found other options and likely will jump in with that ping. Neil knows a lot about pump requirements and system matching.

WASH TANK FILTER SYSTEM

Filter Canister Pentek 150574:
3/4" #10 3G Blue Filter Housing with Bracket and Meter Mount ~$33

Gauge Pentek 143549:
Differential Pressure Gauge for 3G Meter Mount Housings ~$53
Green (clean) 0-6 psid; Yellow (change) 6-9 psid; Red (dirty) 9-12 psid

Tubing: 3/8" ID x 50 Ft High Pressure Braided Clear PVC Vinyl Tubing Flexible Vinyl Tube, Heavy Duty Reinforced Vinyl Hose Tubing, BPA Free and Non Toxic

Pump Shurflo 8020-513-236 Pump 15vAC Power Cord 60PSI Switch 1.6 GPM
~ $140 - $190 (https://www.toboaenergy.com $142.57)
You will want to mount this pump on a board, not in a box. Neil has another pump suggestion, but for the moment I can't find my docs on that.

Filter FlowMax HP (Watts) FPP-0.2-975-DOE 2.5” x 9.75” DOE End Cap 0.2 micron absolute
~$50 (https://www.freshwatersystems.com)

Hose Barb for filter canister: x2 Hose Barb ¾” NPT x 3/8” Barb

Hose Barb for Pump: x2 Hose Barb 3/8” NPT x 3/8” Barb (nylon or plastic not metal)

On/Off Switch for Pump: BindMaster 3-Prong Grounded On/Off Switch (for pump)
~ $9

RINSE TANK FILTER SYSTEM

Filter Canister Pentek 158116 ¼” #10 Slim Line

Filter Flow Max FM-0.35-975 2-1/2” x 9-3/4” Pleated Filter, 0.35 micron nominal

Tubing: Clear PVC vinyl food grade 3/8" ID intake from tank to pump, 1/4" output to filter cannister and back to tank.

Pump Little Giant 1-AA-OM
This pump is no longer made by Little Giant but is available on the Web from vendors: one two. It was original designed as a hot water pump for drink dispensers.

Pump Wiring You will need to attach wire and plug. I used this. Westinghouse Lamp Cord w/ switch

Pump Box Cantex 513371OU Junction Box

Hose barbs intake to pump 1/4"MNPT to 3/8", Nylon; discharge from pump 1/4" FNPT to 1/4" barb, brass; intake and discharge for filter cannister 1/4" MNPT to 1/4" barb, brass. Don't forget the plumbers tape.


One more thing ...

Something not discussed is locating all this stuff for ease of use and efficient operation. To hold both tanks and their pumps, etc. I built a custom sized waterproof tray using David's design, with wood and a thick tarp fastened to the frame with rust-proof staples.







Tray in place with pump and 2nd RD for rinse tank.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

Hi BJ - thanks.

I used to use the heater, setting it at 30 degrees F. Now only use it in winter when the air is cooler. The ultrasonic action will heat the water by itself.

Yes, the two filter systems are entirely different. For the wash tank I wanted the cleanest water I could get. There I use a 0.2 micron filter and a substantial pump. At 0.2 micron level filtration -- that's bacteria level -- the water is v-e-r-y clean.

For the rinse tank I used an early filter system I built from scratchfor my original DIY RCM years back. That one is described in my write-ups posted on The Vinyl Press -- links are in the first post of this thread.

View attachment 115501
my original DIY RCM

View attachment 115500
origina pump and l filter circa 2016

View attachment 115499
update from small to larger filter with smaller pore size -- that's on the Rinse Tank today, same pump as above.

We make it so easy for you guys Below is my parts list for both filter systems -- I wrote this up a whle back. Here I did not check the links. @Neil.Antin l and I picked the large pump; he has since found other options and likely will jump in with that ping. Neil knows a lot about pump requirements and system matching.

WASH TANK FILTER SYSTEM

Filter Canister Pentek 150574:
3/4" #10 3G Blue Filter Housing with Bracket and Meter Mount ~$33

Gauge Pentek 143549:
Differential Pressure Gauge for 3G Meter Mount Housings ~$53
Green (clean) 0-6 psid; Yellow (change) 6-9 psid; Red (dirty) 9-12 psid

Tubing: 3/8" ID x 50 Ft High Pressure Braided Clear PVC Vinyl Tubing Flexible Vinyl Tube, Heavy Duty Reinforced Vinyl Hose Tubing, BPA Free and Non Toxic

Pump Shurflo 8020-513-236 Pump 15vAC Power Cord 60PSI Switch 1.6 GPM
~ $140 - $190 (https://www.toboaenergy.com $142.57)
You will want to mount this pump on a board, not in a box. Neil has another pump suggestion, but for the moment I can't find my docs on that.

Filter FlowMax HP (Watts) FPP-0.2-975-DOE 2.5” x 9.75” DOE End Cap 0.2 micron absolute
~$50 (https://www.freshwatersystems.com)

Hose Barb for filter canister: x2 Hose Barb ¾” NPT x 3/8” Barb

Hose Barb for Pump: x2 Hose Barb 3/8” NPT x 3/8” Barb (nylon or plastic not metal)

On/Off Switch for Pump: BindMaster 3-Prong Grounded On/Off Switch (for pump)
~ $9

RINSE TANK FILTER SYSTEM

Filter Canister Pentek 158116 ¼” #10 Slim Line

Filter Flow Max FM-0.35-975 2-1/2” x 9-3/4” Pleated Filter, 0.35 micron nominal

Tubing: Clear PVC vinyl food grade 3/8" ID intake from tank to pump, 1/4" output to filter cannister and back to tank.

Pump Little Giant 1-AA-OM
This pump is no longer made by Little Giant but is available on the Web from vendors: one two. It was original designed as a hot water pump for drink dispensers.

Pump Wiring You will need to attach wire and plug. I used this. Westinghouse Lamp Cord w/ switch

Pump Box Cantex 513371OU Junction Box

Hose barbs intake to pump 1/4"MNPT to 3/8", Nylon; discharge from pump 1/4" FNPT to 1/4" barb, brass; intake and discharge for filter cannister 1/4" MNPT to 1/4" barb, brass. Don't forget the plumbers tape.


One more thing ...

Something not discussed is locating all this stuff for ease of use and efficient operation. To hold both tanks and their pumps, etc. I built a custom sized waterproof tray using David's design, with wood and a thick tarp fastened to the frame with rust-proof staples.

View attachment 115503

View attachment 115502


View attachment 115504
Tray in place with pump and 2nd RD for rinse tank.

Fantastic 'tima'. Thank you for the very detailed and important information. Very much appreciated.

I do feel a bit embarrassed as Neil (@Neil.Antin) also gave me a list of the products to buy (some that you have also so kindly listed) a month or so back for the filtered circulating system which I have marked all of the products in my internet 'bookmarks' ready to buy in the next month or two.

 

[tima]

Fantastic 'tima'. Thank you for the very detailed and important information. Very much appreciated.

I do feel a bit embarrassed as Neil (@Neil.Antin) also gave me a list of the products to buy (some that you have also so kindly listed) a month or so back for the filtered circulating system which I have marked all of the products in my internet 'bookmarks' ready to buy in the next month or two.

Thanks. The key, imo, is what filter do you want to use. That drives the pump selection and tubing. The 0.2 micron filters are a bit pricey, $75 usd, but worth it. My first has not come close to being filled after a year of use. Having the gauge on the Pentek cannister lets you monitor the filter. Good idea to buy several filters once you choose what you want. They go in and out of stock and get deleted. I have had zero issues with both filter systems.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

Thanks. The key, imo, is what filter do you want to use. That drives the pump selection and tubing. The 0.2 micron filters are a bit pricey, $75 usd, but worth it. My first has not come close to being filled after a year of use. Having the gauge on the Pentek cannister lets you monitor the filter. Good idea to buy several filters once you choose what you want. They go in and out of stock and get deleted. I have had zero issues with both filter systems.

Yes, I will order the 0.2 micron filters too as per your and Neil's suggestions / recommendations. I'm a Mechanical Building Services & HVAC Engineer so ok with filters and pumps and piping etc. along with ventilation & air conditioning.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

Equipment for the circulating filtered water I will be purchasing here in the UK (as per your's and Neil's recommendations) which I have 'book marked';

Amazon.co.uk

Shurflo SLV10-AA48 12v Pump 40 PSI 3.8 Ltrs/Min (1.0 US GPM)

.

www.agratech.co.uk

3/4 Inch Filter Housing

3/4 Inch Ecosoft Filter Housing

www.directwaterfilters.co.uk

PVDF Ultrafiltration (UF) Membrane Cartridge

PVDF Ultrafiltration (UF) Membrane Cartridge

www.directwaterfilters.co.uk

100 GPD PURA RODI Reverse osmosis water

100 GPD PURA RODI Reverse osmosis water

www.directwaterfilters.co.uk

(If I decide not to buy distilled / demin water i.e. based on usage vs cost of my DIY Ultrasonic Record Cleaner)

Dehypon - 1 Litre

Extensive tests by British textile conservators and conservation scientists led to the introduction of this detergent for the cleansing of valuable textiles. Dehypon LS54 was found to be the best all-round one-off detergent for wool and cotton. Size: 1 litre

conservation-resources.co.uk

https://www.amazon.co.uk/GST60A12-P1J-AC-DC-Industrial-Desktop-Adaptor/dp/B013EU0AQQ/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3PCQCPL9ADXIG&keywords=mean%2Bwell%2Bgst60a12-p1j%2B12v%2B5%2Bamp&qid=1687380256&sprefix=MEAN%2BWELL™%2BGST60A12-P1J%2B%2Caps%2C251&sr=8-1&th=1

Amazon.co.uk