The 24-Bit Delusion

opus112

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But you didn't click on the any of the links, now did you?

I'm supposed to be a bad boy because I didn't click? If you recall the context leading up to this, you'd claimed -

Indeed the term "process gain" is hardly used in signal processing.

That claim was falsified by the Yahoo search turning up plenty of links. I did read the snippets underneath on the first page to check that the context was appropriate.

The first three are forum posts so let's not consider any of them a proper reference.

Goalpost moving - you didn't say 'hardly ever used in proper signal processing references'. So looks to me like confirmation bias.

The fourth one is from analog devices: http://www.analog.com/media/en/training-seminars/tutorials/MT-001.pdf

And there we read this:

"The process gain due to oversampling for these conditions is given by: [formula] "

Here we clearly see the problems of proof-texting - removing some lexis from its context and giving it the meaning we want. However if we take time to read the context of this paper we discover the context is that of a digital basestation where hundreds of narrow channels are stuffed side-by-side into a much wider band space. In this instance digital filtering is being used to create the 'process gain'. So when the writer uses 'oversampling' its already established its part of a package and he uses that word as shorthand for the whole package. Its clear from anything more than a cursory read that the gain is due to the narrowing of the bandwidth which has been what I've been saying all along.

But in any case the context I was referring to here was your claim that 'process gain' is hardly used. This document provides yet more falsification of your claim - to wit its 7 pages long and if you do a ctrl-F to find 'process gain' you'll get 10 hits. Admittedly four are text legends on diagrams. If you do the same for 'processing gain' you'll get two hits.


So what is your beef again?

Its a very well worn debating tactic to attempt to move the focus from the message to the messenger.

What is it you don't like about my message?
 

Fiddle Faddle

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I was enjoying this thread till all the graphs and the arguably agitated scientific debate started. Maybe it should be turned over to the measurement forum? :)
 

jkeny

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It's a shame but not surprising that Amir will argue ad-nauseum about his use of the misleading word "oversampling" to describe increasing the number of bins used in an FFT.

His continued posting on this topic is confused & misleading & only serves one purpose - to defend his ego & never admit he is wrong - btw, does this tactic of "doubling down" remind you of anyone? :)
 

Fiddle Faddle

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It's a shame but not surprising that Amir will argue ad-nauseum about his use of the misleading word "oversampling" to describe increasing the number of bins used in an FFT.

His continued posting on this topic is confused & misleading & only serves one purpose - to defend his ego & never admit he is wrong - btw, does this tactic of "doubling down" remind you of anyone? :)

Well I don't really know. But what I do know is that I am finding a clear long-term pattern that all threads as a rule are enjoyable here until Amir steps in. Then they always seem to rapidly go south. I first noticed it within days of joining in 2015 and still notice it to this very day.

So far as any audio science or measurement is concerned, I 'd rather just continue to refer to the professional audio publications as I always have - Hi Fi World, Hi Fi News, etc. I don't need to get it here at a website that I enjoy primarily because it is aimed at subjective listeners who prefer to use their ears as opposed to looking at test tones on computer screens. There are plenty of other places on the net for that, not least of which is the website Amir set up independently last year.
 

jkeny

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Well I don't really know. But what I do know is that I am finding a clear long-term pattern that all threads as a rule are enjoyable here until Amir steps in. Then they always seem to rapidly go south. I first noticed it within days of joining in 2015 and still notice it to this very day.

So far as any audio science or measurement is concerned, I 'd rather just continue to refer to the professional audio publications as I always have - Hi Fi World, Hi Fi News, etc. I don't need to get it here at a website that I enjoy primarily because it is aimed at subjective listeners who prefer to use their ears as opposed to looking at test tones on computer screens. There are plenty of other places on the net for that, not least of which is the website Amir set up independently last year.

Sure but when he posts technical half-truths or complete falsehoods & he's corrected, as exampled here, he could simply say "OK, I was loose with my terminology" & all this could be avoided. However, I have never seen him do this - he instead wastes everybody's time trying to defend the indefensible.
 
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jkeny

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Psycho-acoustics can not be measured; they are felt!

I am at a loss trying to follow the technical battle on this thread but empirically, as an avid listener of a highly resolving and transparent system, some pertinent points can have their validity.

First of all, one should dispense with analogue\digital dogma and fundamentalism. Both analogue and digital are means to an end. The end is the music. Done properly, both are capable of excellent achievements, acknowledging that perfection is non-existent, given the objective frailties of the technical and human resources, and abandoning all delusions about recreating the original, real thing. Often, a good system can transcend reality and render a higher degree of sensory, emotional and intellectual experiences than the real.

jkeny: Your views and hypotheses expounded in relation to auditory perception \psycho-acoustics were interesting and coherently articulated although, for me, somewhat overstretched and pre-conceived. I would rather have ideas than ideologies. The former can liberate you; the latter possess you (although, in fairness, your views were not extremist).

There is nothing wrong or deficient with experienced, honest ears as a ‘’hearing metric’’. Afterall you, like all of us, are citing auditory inadequacies based more on what you hear (and hence postulate your theories ) than on what you measure. Psychoacoustics can NOT be measured; they are felt and perhaps psycho-analysed, but not using an ‘’auditory analysis’’ apparatus. Mood swings\’’distortions’’ can not be quantified numerically. Music personified, for me, is an experience of the ears (sensory), heart (emotional) and mind (intellectual). Maintaing a fine balance of the three is facilitated by having a highly resolving, involving and transparent system but, for many, it does not have to be like this.

I have a simpler and less sophisticated ‘’auditory value system’’. I judge the end result, i.e the music, as produced by my two means of playback- analogue and digital. The noise properties that you assign to digital and their associated auditory effects (i.e what we actually hear), do not translate to reality in my experience, no matter how hard I try to make the ‘’naturo-cultural’’ ( my own neologism just for this post) connections that you allude to.

There is a simple test: Record an analogue track on a relatively high quality, let alone state-of-the-art, digital recorder. Match levels and compare blind-folded (unless your ears are honest). You will witness an almost facsimile of the analogue. How does your ‘’auditory analysis’’ model\mechanism (post #75) account for and reconcile with the findings. We hear the exact analogue on digital. The digital has not added anything of its own, as inferred in or deduced from your post.

Furthermore, I fully endorse RogerD’s comment about the adequacy of Redbook as playback. Higher bits may well be needed for recording, mixing\mastering (for multi-processing, headroom, etc.) but I have serious reservations about the consequences of excessive\multiple processing on the tonal\timbral properties of many Cds\SACDs. Redbook presents no compromises if every link of the digital production chain was executed impeccably.

By the way, when I record (24 bit), I neither mix nor master. My mixing relies on the appropriate placement of the musicians according to the dynamic properties of their instruments, my mood at the time, and the overall tonal balance that I am seeking. Once satisfied, after much experimentation, there is no need for further processing or manipulation. The critisism of digital timbral\tonal inferiority, often cited, may well be in my view due to multiple processing and filtering implementation NOT done properly. Having said all this and not wanting to give the impression that I am an advocate of my recording methodology, I have to confess that I envy the work of many engineers, (incomparably superior to mine) regardless of their methods and practices.

A few thoughts to ponder over, rather than a critique of your pasitions which you defend rather admirably.

We listen, always learning. Cheers, Kostas.
Kostas, I agree with the thrust of your post but want to clarify some issues
I have ideas, not ideologies although I do find the research area of Auditory Scene Analysis (ASA) a very good framework, currently, for studying the possible underlying mechanisms involved in auditory processing.

What I think you mean by "phsycoacoustics are not measurable" is that how we feel from a piece of music is not measureable - I agree that the higher level emotions resulting from listening to a piece of music is an individual reaction to the experience & is variable but this is not what I mean by psychoacoustics. What I mean is auditory perception - what are the underlying mechanisms that give rise to our perception of sound streams. I believe we are making progress in our understanding of the brain processes involved in this perception & this was what I was addressing - I already mentioned fMRI (functional MRI) as one of the most interesting ways forward & showing results. To my mind it addresses the whole smoke screen of forum members suggesting blind testing is needed to "prove" what is being heard. I laugh at people who ask for this on a forum as they have no notion what a valid DBT involves - in the same way as I would laugh at a someone suggestion that an fMRI is needed for "proof" of what is heard. So what they are suggesting, buy a $1,000,000 fMRI setup installed at home to "validate" a hearing experience? These scientific tools (yes DBTs are a scientific tool) have their place in labs & are not meant for home-based use.

Here's an example of what I mean by psychoacoustics - when using USB clean-up technology, I find that the perceived loudness is increased. I suspect that this is due to a reduction in noise modulation & therefore an increase in perceived dynamics & hence a perception of greater loudness. Why would this occur? Well again I find that psychoacoustics has some possible explanation for this - the attack portion of the sound envelope is the most critical stage as far as auditory analysis is concerned - we use far more analysis on this stage of the envelope compared to the other stages, decay, sustain, release. In other words, our perception is biased towards this onset of sounds (there are some good examples of how difficult it is to recognise/characterise sounds once this stage is removed). So I suspect that removing noise modulation (i.e leakage current noise coming through the USB connection, in this case) gives a better defined attack portion of the sound envelope & this leads to a perception of better dynamics & hence a louder presentation

What I find is a problem with measurement people is that they deal with first order effects & usually in a literal way - in other words they read someone reporting an increase in dynamics & ignore that this could well be due to auditory perception - instead they try to measure an increase in signal to noise ratio - declaring that the report false because measurements show no change in SNR - they are being simplistic in their measurement approach, literal in their assumptions dynamics = SNR so measure SNR.

Similarly noise is considered as just one phenomena & they measure the noise floor for changes using what? A simple test signal & an FFT- neither of which is suitable for sensing a modulating noise floor. (which brings us full circle to the recent discussion over noise floor & FFT plots)

This is the great divide between subjectivists & objectivists, IMO
 
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RogerD

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There is a simple test: Record an analogue track on a relatively high quality, let alone state-of-the-art, digital recorder. Match levels and compare blind-folded (unless your ears are honest). You will witness an almost facsimile of the analogue. How does your ‘’auditory analysis’’ model\mechanism (post #75) account for and reconcile with the findings. We hear the exact analogue on digital. The digital has not added anything of its own, as inferred in or deduced from your post.

Furthermore, I fully endorse RogerD’s comment about the adequacy of Redbook as playback. Higher bits may well be needed for recording, mixing\mastering (for multi-processing, headroom, etc.) but I have serious reservations about the consequences of excessive\multiple processing on the tonal\timbral properties of many Cds\SACDs. Redbook presents no compromises if every link of the digital production chain was executed impeccably.

By the way, when I record (24 bit), I neither mix nor master. My mixing relies on the appropriate placement of the musicians according to the dynamic properties of their instruments, my mood at the time, and the overall tonal balance that I am seeking. Once satisfied, after much experimentation, there is no need for further processing or manipulation. The critisism of digital timbral\tonal inferiority, often cited, may well be in my view due to multiple processing and filtering implementation NOT done properly. Having said all this and not wanting to give the impression that I am an advocate of my recording methodology, I have to confess that I envy the work of many engineers, (incomparably superior to mine) regardless of their methods and practices.


We listen, always learning. Cheers, Kostas.

Hello Kostas,

You are rare on these forums....a recording engineer that can relate to what audiophiles experience. I think Steve Hoffman at last last time I looked said that he thought digital did not reproduce as faithfully as analog in his experience. I am of the opinion that greater care or engineering is done on the record side vs the playback side(mixing,mastering). That's my only explanation for what I hear,as my digital is fully comparable to analog. I continue to be a strong proponent of current noise mitigation and something I call extreme grounding. I would like to ask....other than the "live" boost in the recording process do you think most SNR are equal in the recording side vs playback(mixing,mastering). Sorry my intention is not to hijack this thread. Thanks
 

Ken Newton

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Hello Kostas,

I think Steve Hoffman at last last time I looked said that he thought digital did not reproduce as faithfully as analog in his experience. I am of the opinion that greater care or engineering is done on the record side vs the playback side(mixing,mastering). That's my only explanation for what I hear,as my digital is fully comparable to analog.

I would describe my own home digital playback as often sounding like an direct microphone feed. The sound is exceedingly clear, immediate, dynamic and often lifelike in character. Disappointment/frustration begins only after extended listening time, where boredom/distraction/fatigue typically sets in. It's seems like, the sound is excellent on a consciously observed level, yet is subconsciously annoying in a way which only becomes consciously apparent over time.

I continue to be a strong proponent of current noise mitigation and something I call extreme grounding...

Those sound like interesting techniques. Please share your learning and thoughts.
 

morricab

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I would describe my own home digital playback as often sounding like an direct microphone feed. The sound is exceedingly clear, immediate, dynamic and often lifelike in character. Disappointment/frustration begins only after extended listening time, where boredom/distraction/fatigue typically sets in. It's seems like, the sound is excellent on a consciously observed level, yet is subconsciously annoying in a way which only becomes consciously apparent over time.



Those sound like interesting techniques. Please share your learning and thoughts.

Get a Monarchy M24 DAC (the original 20 bit with PCM63s). You will neither be bored nor fatigued/annoyed. it is a very analog like DAC and doesn't cost a lot. However, it might be hard to fnd as they change hands rarely.

Will it measure -140db or even get 21 bit resolution? Not likely, however, you won't mind when you hear it.

Is it better than my (superb IMO) analog rig? No, but it is not such a huge step down that I don't want to listen to digital.

Ironically, some of the worst sounding DACs I have heard were the worst measuring...just like amps!! :)
 

morricab

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Get a Monarchy M24 DAC (the original 20 bit with PCM63s). You will neither be bored nor fatigued/annoyed. it is a very analog like DAC and doesn't cost a lot. However, it might be hard to fnd as they change hands rarely.

Will it measure -140db or even get 21 bit resolution? Not likely, however, you won't mind when you hear it.

Is it better than my (superb IMO) analog rig? No, but it is not such a huge step down that I don't want to listen to digital.

Ironically, some of the worst sounding DACs I have heard were the worst measuring...just like amps!! :)

Meant best sounding DACs were the worst measuring
 

Fiddle Faddle

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Redbook presents no compromises if every link of the digital production chain was executed impeccably.


I have to disagree with this, even if the digital chain is "mathematically perfect". The first problem is that I have never, ever heard an anti-aliasing filter that works transparently (regardless of the quality of the equipment) when there are only a couple of semi-tones bandwidth for it to perform it's required mathematical function. If we accept that a full "high fidelity" bandwidth goes to 20 KHz, then you only need to increase the pitch beyond that by approximately two semi-tones (or a whole tone) and you are at the absolute mathematical limit of the Nyquist frequency. That is insufficient bandwidth to play with in all of my experience if you really do want the digital result to sound like the analogue input from the microphones (or anything else analogue). The result is a slight hardening up of the sound, a slight loss of timing and less inaccurate reproduction of instrumental timbre, especially those of massed violins in large orchestras. The only "workaround" around - if one is forced to work at 44.1 KHz sampling rate - is to bandwidth limit the original source material such that there are around 4 to 5 semitones of bandwidth (or more) for the anti-aliasing filters to work with. This can be achieved for example, by specifying a lower cut-off frequency in the downsampling process when preparing a CD master, assuming the material was recorded at a higher sampling frequency to begin with.

This is also the reason why I find the biggest improvement in digital recording is achieved when moving from 44.1 KHz to 48 KHz. That step in my experience is much more significant than anything beyond that, including 48 KHz versus 96 KHz versus DSD, etc. I also agree with Dan Lavry that high sampling rates are, however, even more harmful. He and I both agree the ideal sampling rate would be around 60 KHz, however no such sample rate is used in any commercially available equipment so far as I am aware. Certainly beyond 96 KHz, there are more problems introduced than solved (ultrasonics, intermodulation distortions caused by ultrasonics, clock accuracy, etc). These issues might be smaller the better the equipment, but even so, the best equipment will still generally measure better at low sampling rates than very high ones, except of course in the aspect of recordable bandwidth. Even as things stand, I prefer 48 KHz even to 96 KHz -both are still slightly compromised but given there is no real benefit (in my opinion) to record beyond around 21.5 KHz , then 48 KHz is the best compromise as it affords sufficient audio bandwidth, enough room for the anti-aliasing filters to work with reasonable transparency and there are no issues with ultrasonics or high frequency clocks causing any problems.

Incidentally, I should point out that in my opinion, recordable bandwidth is of the least amount of concern when it comes to digital recording - the far bigger problems are having enough bandwidth in order to be able to utilise as near to transparent filter as possible, having extremely low jitter throughout the whole recording and reproduction process and to reduce the noise floor as much as possible.

When it comes to 16 bits, again I have problems with this. Whilst I fully accept that mathematically and thus in theory there is no need whatsoever for the final product to be anything more than 16 bits, the problem is that even such low level (16 bit) noise floors effect the music that we do hear at much higher levels. Even if you were to take a "24 bit" recording then truncate it (only to find that there was never any actual musical content from bit 17 onwards), this still holds true. For some reason - and I do not claim to have any explanation - digital noise floors at extraordinarily low levels still effect what we hear even at "normal" listening levels.

For example, let us take an example of a recording made at 24 bits that does not contain any musical content beyond 16 bits, but it DOES have a DIGITAL noise floor equal to or beyond, say, 20 bits across the entire 20 - 20 KHz spectrum. This could very typically happen if an old analogue release from the 1950s to 1980s is remastered for distribution as "high res" 24/48, 24/96, 24/88.4, 24/176.8 PCM or DSD, etc. Now I fully accept there will likely be nothing whatsoever on those tapes that will require more than 16 bits to successfully record in the digital domain (probably even less in some cases), yet the low-level digital noise floor is still changing the actual playback sound of the digital copy versus the original analogue. This continues to occur unless the noise floor is as low as it is possible to achieve with modern electronics (I have not kept up with the latest ADC technology, but last time I checked it still wasn't as good as those of the best DACS - so I think were are still stuck at around 21 bits for ADC at the present time).

And it is quite easy to hear what the noise floor does to the music we do hear - you can take such a digital file as described above and add 16 bit noise shaping. By doing this, you are not making the slightest change whatsoever to the actual musical content, as all of that probably exists within the first 13 to 15 bits at best. All you are doing is making changes to the digital noise floor - often at levels well below -110 dBFS if using 16 bit noise shaping - so well beyond what any listener is ever going to hear (unless they wish to destroy both their hearing and their system). But what does happen is very consistent: where you have a higher digital noise floor, the less clarity you have, the more subjectively suppressed that particular frequency band sounds compared to other bands with a lower noise floor and the worse the 3D imaging is (sense of space around the instrument and the hall it is being played in).

As an example, if I choose the "low, optimum, B curve" profile using PSP X-Dither on a 24 bit file, I retain an excellent digital noise floor in the low to upper midrange. But I am adding a lot of noise (relatively speaking) to the low end, even though the total amount of noise added is 16 bits mathematically speaking. This results in poorer bass quality (muddier and more "boomy" sounding), a fantastic sounding midrange that sounds just like the analogue original, but also an exaggerated top end with an added sheen to it that wasn't there in the 24 bit original.

If on the other hand, I choose a reasonably flat dither to 16 bits instead, nothing I hear has the qualities of the 24 bit original - every frequency band is audibly compromised - it is just that those compromises are less because I am spreading them out across the entire frequency range. Sometimes this approach works better, sometimes another one does.

But for those who are sceptical, whilst you might want to dismiss my experiences because I am not a recording engineer, can you as easily dismiss the claims of audio engineers who work regularly with 24 bit masters and then spend a lot of time producing their CD masters, with particular attention paid to the dithering process. If 16 bits were enough, then they wouldn't have any need to be so obsessive with it - they could just pick anything they liked that was mathematically perfect at 16 bits and that would be fine. But of course these engineers do agonise over it because they hear what I do - the completely inaudible noise floor affecting the sonic quality of what we do hear, regardless of the actual musical content's "true" mathematical bit depth.

And the above is one of the things where digital theory does not pan out in actual practice. Because, yes, 16 bits is enough - I don't argue that when it comes to storing the actual musical content itself. But you need more than 16 bits because the inaudible noise floor affects the sound of the audible one. And the latter is something never mentioned in the theory books.
 

Ken Newton

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Fiddle Faddle, yours is a salient, well written comment. I'd like to touch on a few of the points you made.

...I have never, ever heard an anti-aliasing filter that works transparently (regardless of the quality of the equipment) when there are only a couple of semi-tones bandwidth for it to perform it's required mathematical function...That is insufficient bandwidth to play with in all of my experience if you really do want the digital result to sound like the analogue input from the microphones (or anything else analogue). The result is a slight hardening up of the sound, a slight loss of timing and less inaccurate reproduction of instrumental timbre, especially those of massed violins in large orchestras. ecorded at a higher sampling frequency to begin wiith...This is also the reason why I find the biggest improvement in digital recording is achieved when moving from 44.1 KHz to 48 KHz...Incidentally, I should point out that in my opinion, recordable bandwidth is of the least amount of concern when it comes to digital recording - the far bigger problems are having enough bandwidth in order to be able to utilise as near to transparent filter as possible

I suspect that this points directly to the issue of a sampled system's time-domain response. Audiophiles commonly accept the sampling theorem as delivering perfect recording and reconstruction, however, there are key mathematical stipulations in the theorem for this. Everyone knows the Nyquist band limit stipulation, but much less well known is the stipulation that the signal not only continue infinitely in to the future, but also stretch infinitely back in to the past. Meaning; like God, it must always have existed - and have been sampled all the while!

Obviously, this second stipulation can only be met in mathematics, having nothing to do with real signals. The primary consequence of failing to meet the second stipulation is a non-perfect time-domain reconstruction of the signal. The time-domain reconstruction can, however, be improved by utlizing softer anti-alias and interpolation filters, which, then, inherently, require a wider transistion band. As you have alluded, CD's squeezing of 20kHz signal bandwidth within a 22.05kHz digital channel is at the root of some subjective sound problems. Having the signal and the channel bandwidths so closely located helps the system time-domain reponse not at all. Interestingly, time-domain response is an area on which which MQA has focused. MQA utilizes, otherwise, superfluous ultrasonic bandwidth to allow for utilization of soft (time-domain optimized) digital filters.

...And it is quite easy to hear what the noise floor does to the music we do hear...But what does happen is very consistent: where you have a higher digital noise floor, the less clarity you have, the more subjectively suppressed that particular frequency band sounds compared to other bands with a lower noise floor...And the above is one of the things where digital theory does not pan out in actual practice. Because, yes, 16 bits is enough - I don't argue that when it comes to storing the actual musical content itself. But you need more than 16 bits because the inaudible noise floor affects the sound of the audible one. And the latter is something never mentioned in the theory books.

Yet another interesting issue. I've long suspected that a number of subjective artifacts of digital audio are based in some secondary correlated mechanism, not in whatever particular common parameter is being measured. Sort of like how, a crowing rooster doesn't cause the sun to rise. So, when we measure very low level changes in noise floor which should be inaudible, yet appear to result in some audible change, another correlated parameter not being measured may, perhaps, be the cause. At any rate, there certainly are some effects directly related to the characteristics of the noise floor. For example, I've heard dither listening tests utilizing audio tracks subjected to progressively decreasing bit resolution, with dither and without dither (truncated) - down to something like, 4-bits per sample. I was surprised by my subjective impression. To me, dither was an audible unpleasant distraction from music content until the bit resolution was very low. At very low resolution, dither did improve the intelligibility of the audio, especially with speech.

Some suspect, opus112 here, for example, that sigma-delta noise-shaping audibly modulates the noise floor. An possibly related obscure fact is that common TPDF dither is not completely de-correlated from the signal. TPDF is generally accepted as transparent to the human ear, but that may not be true under all circumstances for all listeners - given it's lack of true complete de-correlation. However, this is merely speculation.
 
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Yuri Korzunov

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And the above is one of the things where digital theory does not pan out in actual practice. Because, yes, 16 bits is enough - I don't argue that when it comes to storing the actual musical content itself. But you need more than 16 bits because the inaudible noise floor affects the sound of the audible one. And the latter is something never mentioned in the theory books.

When considered bit depth, reviewed noise floor and maximal 0 dB.

But need consider 0 dB and minimal signal for given signal/noise ratio.

Example:

Dynamic range = 0 dB - V(dB);

V(dB) is level of signal with SNR=40 dB.

Because SNR for high signal is 110 dB, but for -70 db SNR about 40 dB (it is wrong way SNR defining, but for example only).

So quality is different for different level of signal.

True dynamic range should provide limited level of SNR degrading.

Therefore 24 bit may be demanded too.

It's again subjective "threshold of audibility".
 

RogerD

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I use a Monarchy NM24 Dac and this comment about 16 bit and 24 was written by the designer Mr. Poon...

For the audiophile, vinyl is considered the "gold standard." Two of the greatest audio upgrades that one can make to get that "vinyl warmth" from digital files is to first process the music through a quality tube DAC that uses a bit depth of 24. All CDs are 16-bit, but by raising the depth to 24-bit you lower the noise floor which produces a cleaner sound. If we compare the amount of data/information of 16/44.1 to 24/96, then we can easily deduce that the 24/96 audio will have greater audio quality due to the larger amount of information contained. For example, a 16-bit, 44.1kHz song requires a bitrate of 1.35 megabit/second of data, and a single minute of stereo audio takes up about 10 megabytes of space. The same 24-bit song with a 96kHz sample rate, by contrast, requires a bitrate of 4.39mbps and requires 33 megabytes of storage for a single minute of stereo audio. Some may say why not go for 24/192? We could, but could a difference really be heard? We will let the reader be the ultimate judge, but considering that most high-resolution music that can be downloaded today comes in either 24/44.1 or 24/96 then we will be content with these two bit rates. Again, the biggest factor is in using 24-bit audio with a DAC that can process it.

Although this info is dated..I found the info interesting.

http://www.monarchy-audio.com/NM24_Main_Frame.htm
 

jkeny

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Yet another interesting issue. I've long suspected that a number of subjective artifacts of digital audio are based in some secondary correlated mechanism, not in whatever particular common parameter is being measured. Sort of like how, a crowing rooster doesn't cause the sun to rise. So, when we measure very low level changes in noise floor which should be inaudible, yet appear to result in some audible change, another correlated parameter not being measured may, perhaps, be the cause. At any rate, there certainly are some effects directly related to the characteristics of the noise floor. For example, I've heard dither listening tests utilizing audio tracks subjected to progressively decreasing bit resolution, with dither and without dither (truncated) - down to something like, 4-bits per sample. I was surprised by my subjective impression. To me, dither was an audible unpleasant distraction from music content until the bit resolution was very low. At very low resolution, dither did improve the intelligibility of the audio, especially with speech.

Some suspect, opus112 here, for example, that sigma-delta noise-shaping audibly modulates the noise floor. An possibly related obscure fact is that common TPDF dither is not completely de-correlated from the signal. TPDF is generally accepted as transparent to the human ear, but that may not be true under all circumstances for all listeners - given it's lack of true complete de-correlation. However, this is merely speculation.
Yes, I agree, Ken, good post Fiddle Faddle - well written & salient.

For those that wish to read a nice explanation of multitone testing/measurement, this page explains it well & the logic behind it he calls it "sound clarity score"

It's not a new idea - dating back to an AES paper that Deane Jensen delivered in 1988 "Spectral Contamination Measurement"

Why has such a seemingly good measurement that would seem to bear a truer relationship to what we hear not have become widespread since 1988? Maybe because this measurement isn't flattering to most audio devices? Here's a quote of Scott Wurcer's from 2014 "The multitone really separates the sheep from the goats. I'm using 30 1/3 octave tones at about 12db crest factor. Artifacts show up on even the best boards." highlight mine
 

jkeny

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Feb 9, 2012
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One thing Fiddle Faddle about this statement "All you are doing is making changes to the digital noise floor - often at levels well below -110 dBFS if using 16 bit noise shaping - so well beyond what any listener is ever going to hear (unless they wish to destroy both their hearing and their system)." Just how is this -110dB noise floor being measured?

If using an FFT with a single tone or even two tone test signal, we are not seeing the "actual" noise floor in the measurement that we may be perceiving when listening to music.

If using more realistic real-world signals such as many multitones, we can see something like this
sample-spectrum.jpg

As we can see - a very different type of "noise floor" to the earlier FFTs posted
 
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Yuri Korzunov

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One thing Fiddle Faddle about this statement "All you are doing is making changes to the digital noise floor - often at levels well below -110 dBFS if using 16 bit noise shaping - so well beyond what any listener is ever going to hear (unless they wish to destroy both their hearing and their system)." Just how is this -110dB noise floor being measured?

If using an FFT with a single tone or even two tone test signal, we are not seeing the noise floor in the measurement (even taking into account FFT process gain covered in earlier discussion).

If using more realistic real-world signals such as many multitones we can see something like this
...

As we can see - a very different type of "noise floor" to the earlier FFTs posted

Noise floor measured in silence mode.

For single sine measured distortions + noise floor.

I'd not recommend using realistic signals, including musical, because there to complex response that unseparatable with test signal.

Enough use two sines and sweep sine. Anaysis should be in frequency-time-amplitude domain (waterfall spectrogram).
 

jkeny

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Feb 9, 2012
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Noise floor measured in silence mode.

For single sine measured distortions + noise floor.
Do you consider that this measured noise floor is a genuine measure & reveals real world issues - such as noise floor modulation issues?

I'd not recommend using realistic signals, including musical, because there to complex response that unseparatable with test signal.

Enough use two sines and sweep sine. Anaysis should be in frequency-time-amplitude domain (waterfall spectrogram).
Careful choosing of the frequency of the many tones & the crest factors to be used is needed so that there is no confusion.
If you look into the technique you will see that the tones are chosen so that any intermodulation signals due to non-linearity of DUT falls between the tones.

Audio Precision have included such a test in their equipment for a number of years
 
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Yuri Korzunov

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Do you consider that this measured noise floor is a genuine measure & reveals real world issues - such as noise floor modulation issues?

For quantization noise inside pure digital system need signal. For measurement of noise of apparatus - no.
Modulation of noise is non-linear distortions. I noted above «distortions + noise floor».


Careful choosing of the frequency of the many tones & the crest factors to be used is needed so that there is no confusion.
If you look into the technique you will see that the tones are chose so that any intermodulation from non-linearity falls between the tones.

Audio Precision have included such a test in their equipment for a number of years

What is mean careful?
Need exactly know that you want to get by measurement. Referring to any tests must be based on obvious benefits for each case.
If some enterprise use some kind of measurement, probably, it is necessary for their needs.

Let show simple example:

We send 2 sines (frequencies f1 and f2) to input non-linear device. At output we get oscillations kit with frequencies:

f1, f2, 2*f1, 3*f1, …, 2*f2, 3*f2, …, f1+f2, f1-f2, 2*f1-f2, 2*f2-f1, …

Such way we learn overload capabilities of of analog device (analog part of device). Because there is sophisticated non-linearity.
I don’t know, that may be measured for pure digital processing same way. Because it is simple calculated for each bit depth.

If add third sine, combinations of frequencies grow significantly.

Why need third sine? What new information we get?
 

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