Tesla Model 3 | Tesla seeks $1.5 billion junk bonds issue to fund Model 3 production

[Mike Lavigne]

Dead on !!

It's the future

Ive driven my son's Model 3 and there was nothing structurally wrong with it and it was a truly fun drive. In the coming generations the ICE will have gone into extinction.

I agree with quality control issues as they should never happen and I remain skeptical that Musk has the ability to remain as CEO. Having said that, the man is a visionary and no one can fault him for that. The arguments I see against Tesla and Musk remind some 30 years ago with a guy named Steve Jobs who with his little Apple took on the PC industry with a whole new model. There were never (other than briefly)clones such as there were with PC's.

Jobs was scoffed at and ridiculed yet we know how the story ended. All about the Little Train who thought he could...... knew he could, and did. Apple became the first trillion dollar company

As to my thoughts about the integration of solar roof top energy I remain convinced that this is the future.

Solar is not all that pricey when you factor in a 30% tax credit and it is only getting better and the prices are coming down. I'm putting a 10.8 Kw grid on my roof next week which will produce way more electricity than I consume, so much so that my July electric bill (in the midst of one of the hottest summers in California history) which was the highest electric bill in my entire life at $1000 (just me and my wife in our house) will decrease immediately to $11/month which is merely the cost SDGE charges to connect to there grid. With my solar system I will be producing way more than I need and can bank my unused kwh's


IMO solar energy and EV's are intimately associated in the great scheme of things

MikeL has said I live in a community where 1/2 to 1% can live. I do live in a community of highly intelligent and financially secure individuals who IMO are trend setters. As I stated EV's run abundant here and houses with solar energy are amongst the highest in the nation. On my street all but 2 houses have solar energy

BTW, the time to jump onto solar is always now even though the technology continues to improves and the prices decrease because the rumors that the 30% tax credit for solar might not last forever.

With what I am placing on my roof, with the price I paid less the tax credit, my system will have paid for itself in 3 years and 8 months

Finally to address the stiff world wide competition that Tesla will face in the future is al good as it is competition which drives prices down as well as make the technology better

there are a handful of markets nationally where EV's and Hybrids sell. in May our dealership was the #1 seller of the new Honda Clarity plug-in hybrid out of 1057 Honda dealers, and we are about 90th in the nation in overall sales volume. maybe 5-10% of Honda dealers nationally can realistically expect to sell these cars. that is a more real viewpoint than the view from where you stand Steve.

maybe the new Honda Insight will get traction in less 'green' markets, but maybe not. it's a question. Toyota was way off in sales this year nationally somewhat due to the falling sales of Prius.

the real world.....is......real. Electrification......not so much.

and the whole 'save the world' aspect is a bit of a conundrum when we observe resources it takes for these products to get built and the whole true ecological footprint involved. certainly questionable.....regardless of intent.

your ICE comment is laughable head-in-the-sand kinda stuff.

 

[Priaptor]

We will see if EV is the "answer". It surely isn't the answer to any legitimate reduction of CO2 emissions as the statistics demonstrate. Unfortunately, unless there is some CO2 recapture or other forms of man-made photosynthesis that will truly enable man to use biofuels and truly reverse course, converting to EV vehicles is nothing more than pissin in the wind. Also the landmass (and other environmental issues), at this time required with current technology of C02 recapture and biofuels/man-made photosynthesis to have a substantial effect on our CO2 emissions and volume would be more destructive to our environment than constructive. More unfortunately, this new technology has been used by climatologists as a means to prognosticate the "future" health of environment. Recent literature emanating from places like Stanford have put a halt to the thinking that biofuel and recapture is 'here" to make a difference. Many unseen barriers to overcome, including storage, efficiency, acidity and explosiveness among other things.

Now there is some really good stuff coming out of both the east and west coast that could be real game changers. Less acidic more long lasting and efficient man made photosynthetic biofuel devices have been shown to have significant potential. This is our best hope for reversal of future C02 emissions that as Northstar claims will be in our children's lifetime.

Depending upon solar, with tax credits ain't going to fly as policy and will help us (and other countries) go broke sooner than later. Plus as I pointed out earlier, even exclusive of mining, the manufacturers of these solar panels are being done by the biggest polluters in the world helping offset the gains from solar. Anything that interferes with competition, such as Solyndra or government subsidies is the surest method to getting the worst product at the highest prices. I live in FL, would love to get a product like Tesla roof tiles being at the higher end of the solar price spectrum, BUT, cost of even lower end solar panels, #1 is prohibitive, #2 surface area needed prohibitive and after taking into account inflation and other expenses, would never be cost appropriate; not even close. The better answer at this time is for our state's grids to cleaner and cleaner which they are.

The best way to approach C02, Methane, dust, etc emissions is to first recognize reality, eliminate costly subsidies and do a true cost benefit analysis of intended result versus cost to reach that intended result. Unfortunately few are paying attention to this.

 

[Priaptor]

there are a handful of markets nationally where EV's and Hybrids sell. in May our dealership was the #1 seller of the new Honda Clarity plug-in hybrid out of 1057 Honda dealers, and we are about 90th in the nation in overall sales volume. maybe 5-10% of Honda dealers nationally can realistically expect to sell these cars. that is a more real viewpoint than the view from where you stand Steve.

maybe the new Honda Insight will get traction in less 'green' markets, but maybe not. it's a question. Toyota was way off in sales this year nationally somewhat due to the falling sales of Prius.

the real world.....is......real. Electrification......not so much.

and the whole 'save the world' aspect is a bit of a conundrum when we observe resources it takes for these products to get built and the whole true ecological footprint involved. certainly questionable.....regardless of intent.

your ICE comment is laughable head-in-the-sand kinda stuff.

"and the whole 'save the world' aspect is a bit of a conundrum when we observe resources it takes for these products to get built and the whole true ecological footprint involved. certainly questionable.....regardless of intent"

There lies the real issue of man coming up with a solution. EV's have some "appealing features" however, the technology is being sold as a save the world technology which it is far from doing. As you in that sentence and me in my rant point out, there are many more obstacles despite what Mr. Nugent think. EV may be a nice interim step to make people feel good but it isn't going to change much environmentally and will assuredly create other unforeseen problems, kind of what we are now witnessing in the "cloud storage" arena.

 

[steve williams]

your ICE comment is laughable head-in-the-sand kinda stuff.

I wouldn't have expected anything but that comment from you Mike

I agree with Priaptor's comment above but regardless of your comments Mike, it is the future. Seems to me Honda knows that as well but I guess they have their head in the sand as well and that's why you drive a Porsche. But heck the Taycan is on the horizon Mike. It'll drive rings around yours

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I wouldn't have expected anything but that comment from you Mike

I agree with Priaptor's comment above but regardless of your comments Mike, it is the future. Seems to me Honda knows that as well but I guess they have their head in the sand as well and that's why you drive a Porsche. But heck the Taycan is on the horizon Mike. It'll drive rings around yours

understand that Honda is the world's largest producer of internal combustion engines. Honda is simply covering bases, but scared sh*tless doing so. fingers crossed, looking over their shoulder. trying to predict the future. lots of experts here on WBF know much better of course.

 

[steve williams]

understand that Honda is the world's largest producer of internal combustion engines. Honda is simply covering bases, but scared sh*tless doing so. fingers crossed, looking over their shoulder. trying to predict the future. lots of experts here on WBF know much better of course.

Mike

IMO Honda would be scared even more sh*tless if they didn't do it.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike

IMO Honda would be scared even more sh*tless if they didn't do it.

Honda has no choice by legislative edict. so don't kid yourself. if they did not have to do it, they would not.

you seem to acknowledge none of this stuff is so certain as your comments (and those comments of others) would indicate. and if you read what i have been writing, that is the point. it's that none of this Electrification direction is on solid ground. the EV direction is built on shaky base of support. it's not yet a real world top to bottom economic equation.

end users who buy into the narrative obviously believe. so reading their views here is hardly surprising. but it's not the whole picture.

OTOH solar has solid merits in the right application and i think your direction on that appears sensible. best wishes with that. i'd do it too if i did not live in a rain forest. but i love where i live.

 

[DaveyF]

Solar is the obvious solution here in S.CAlifornia. I put 29 panels on my roof about two years ago..and that was when the utility company offers what it called Net Zero pricing. Now, unfortunately, it isn't quite so generous, so the best you can get is what is called phase 2. Nonetheless, a 'no-brainer' way to go if you have the option ( unfortunately many people don't...as Mike L stated, his climate isn't that conducive for it). So Steve, great decision and IMHO you are definitely doing the right thing.
Interestingly, in S.Calif, there is now a mandate that all new residential construction include solar power as part of the design and completed product...which is being fazed in starting next summer.
Unfortunately, I agree that the EV isn't really the solution to the ongoing climate warming that we are seeing...however, it certainly isn't going to be the continuing cause either. Reading some of the posts here, it would appear that the solution to climate warming is to do NOTHING...and stick one's head in the sand, after all either a) we cannot as a species do anything about it, and b) it doesn't really exist anyway.
EV's are IMO the way of the future, if for no other reason...and I don't think this has been touched upon, they are FAR more reliable ( the motor ...not so much the other components), far simpler to build, far easier to maintain ( having worked on a electric vehicle and a IC engine, if anyone can tell me they prefer working on the IC...come on!!) and a TON more efficient. My opinion is that IF anyone thinks the current combustion engine is the wave of the future, and the EV ( or the Hydrogen powered vehicles...which also haven't been mentioned, but are also a very viable alternative...and which Toyota makes a version of ( even though IMHO it is butt ugly)) is not..now that's really sticking your head in the sand.

 

[Priaptor]

Solar is the obvious solution here in S.CAlifornia. I put 29 panels on my roof about two years ago..and that was when the utility company offers what it called Net Zero pricing. Now, unfortunately, it isn't quite so generous, so the best you can get is what is called phase 2. Nonetheless, a 'no-brainer' way to go if you have the option ( unfortunately many people don't...as Mike L stated, his climate isn't that conducive for it). So Steve, great decision and IMHO you are definitely doing the right thing.
Interestingly, in S.Calif, there is now a mandate that all new residential construction include solar power as part of the design and completed product...which is being fazed in starting next summer.
Unfortunately, I agree that the EV isn't really the solution to the ongoing climate warming that we are seeing...however, it certainly isn't going to be the continuing cause either. Reading some of the posts here, it would appear that the solution to climate warming is to do NOTHING...and stick one's head in the sand, after all either a) we cannot as a species do anything about it, and b) it doesn't really exist anyway.
EV's are IMO the way of the future, if for no other reason...and I don't think this has been touched upon, they are FAR more reliable ( the motor ...not so much the other components), far simpler to build, far easier to maintain ( having worked on a electric vehicle and a IC engine, if anyone can tell me they prefer working on the IC...come on!!) and a TON more efficient. My opinion is that IF anyone thinks the current combustion engine is the wave of the future, and the EV ( or the Hydrogen powered vehicles...which also haven't been mentioned, but are also a very viable alternative...and which Toyota makes a version of ( even though IMHO it is butt ugly)) is not..now that's really sticking your head in the sand.

Do NOTHING?? I haven’t read a single post saying to do nothing or to stick one’s head in the sand since we can’t do anything about it or that it doesn’t exist. Your post as would be expected, is based on preconceived bias.

On the other hand to act irresponsibly and with knee jerk responses to anecdote without legitimate cost benefit analysis to the desired outcome, as usual, the cost both financially and to the human condition, will vastly outweigh the desired benefit. IMHO, that is what constitutes “burying your head in the sand”.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

…….EV's are IMO the way of the future, if for no other reason...and I don't think this has been touched upon, they are FAR more reliable ( the motor ...not so much the other components), far simpler to build, far easier to maintain ( having worked on a electric vehicle and a IC engine, if anyone can tell me they prefer working on the IC...come on!!) and a TON more efficient. My opinion is that IF anyone thinks the current combustion engine is the wave of the future, and the EV ( or the Hydrogen powered vehicles...which also haven't been mentioned, but are also a very viable alternative...and which Toyota makes a version of ( even though IMHO it is butt ugly)) is not..now that's really sticking your head in the sand.

the problem with pure EV's is battery life, not the motors.

it costs more to replace the battery than the EV is worth when it starts to fail. so the EV is useless. and disposal is a problem. this is also the case for Hybrids, but it happens later in the life cycle.

OTOH internal combustion engines (from the right manufacturer) last as long as the rest of the car (15-20+ years) and can be repaired.

i'm not saying that EV's or Hydrogen/Fuel Cell will not become more prevalent, only that there are plenty of longevity issues yet to be resolved with those technologies.

 

[Priaptor]

the problem with pure EV's is battery life, not the motors.

it costs more to replace the battery than the EV is worth after a few years. so the EV is useless. and disposal is a problem. this is also the case for Hybrids, but it happens later in the life cycle.

OTOH internal combustion engines (from the right manufacturer) last as long as the rest of the car (15-20+ years) and can be repaired.

i'm not saying that EV's or Hydrogen/Fuel Cell will not become more prevalent, only that there are plenty of longevity issues yet to be resolved with those technologies.

There is also a large environmental footprint of mining the materials for and manufacturing of those batteries which shouldn’t be overlooked; especially since we depend upon dirty manufacturers for these parts.

 

[DaveC]

This is just a circular debate the same as last time at this point.

EVs are the future. They just aren't ideal right now because technology hasn't made the promise REAL.

EVs cost a ton, and based on Energy Return on Energy Invested they are probably worse vs a small car like a Honda Fit. The environmental impact of obtaining materials for and manufacturing their batteries and motors is horrendous.

Not everyone is charging EVs with renewable sources of energy. If you use fossil fuel produced electricity to charge your EV it's probably MUCH WORSE vs an ICE car at this point. Why? Power generation from fossil fuels which then charge your EV's battery is less efficient vs burning fossil fuels in an ICE.

And Steve, just the fact you have a $1k/month electric bill puts your perspective WAY out in left field. And a 10.8kW solar system? This is about 10x larger footprint vs what folks in my neighborhood use... and prices around here start at about $400k so it's not exactly a slum. If this is your standard and that of your neighbors I'd argue your perspective is skewed and I'm sorry but it seems people with wealth buy EVs to make themselves feel better about their excessive use of other resources, at this point the car is a drop in the bucket vs maintaining a house like that... and it's all a scam at this point because the advantages of EVs are grossly overstated. I hesitate to bring this up and I'm not judging... I "waste" resources on various things like having a fast ICE car myself, I'm no angel... But the truth is energy resources spent on homes and buildings are far in excess of what cars are responsible for, so if you really want to make a difference the home is the first place to start, and it's entirely feasible to use less than $100/month on electricity. This would make something like 10x the difference of your choice of car.

 

[DaveyF]

the problem with pure EV's is battery life, not the motors.

it costs more to replace the battery than the EV is worth when it starts to fail. so the EV is useless. and disposal is a problem. this is also the case for Hybrids, but it happens later in the life cycle.

OTOH internal combustion engines (from the right manufacturer) last as long as the rest of the car (15-20+ years) and can be repaired.

i'm not saying that EV's or Hydrogen/Fuel Cell will not become more prevalent, only that there are plenty of longevity issues yet to be resolved with those technologies.

Sure, but the complexity of the combustion engine is a problem...and when you add the ongoing complexity of the emission controls that are required with the combustion engine, you have a system that is far more likely to fail. The battery is the problem with EV's...no doubt...but that technology is improving rapidly.
No perfect system, but I think the overall potential is far greater with EV's than with the old standard. Combustion power is pretty much fully matured; I don't think we can say that for the EV.

 

[steve williams]

end users who buy into the narrative obviously believe. so reading their views here is hardly surprising. but it's not the whole picture.

of course Mike but let's be realistic the same can be said for we audiophiles and the directions in which we go

For my money and my due diligence, this was a no brainer. Every study I found put Sun Power number one and LG and Panasonic next. Tesla is rarely ever found in the top 10 and that's fact. The Tesla roof tiles are beyond expensive and as stated they only re shingle about 30% of your roof with their tiles and you have to hope they match. Most people find that it is not enough and either have to create an auxiliary system or add more Tesla shingles.

My days of $1000/month electric bills are over

 

[DaveyF]

On the other hand to act irresponsibly and with knee jerk responses to anecdote without legitimate cost benefit analysis to the desired outcome, as usual, the cost both financially and to the human condition, will vastly outweigh the desired benefit. IMHO, that is what constitutes “burying your head in the sand”.

Oh, have you ever heard of analysis paralysis ..which is what you are supporting, IMO.

 

[DaveC]

Sure, but the complexity of the combustion engine is a problem...and when you add the ongoing complexity of the emission controls that are required with the combustion engine, you have a system that is far more likely to fail. The battery is the problem with EV's...no doubt...but that technology is improving rapidly.
No perfect system, but I think the overall potential is far greater with EV's than with the old standard. Combustion power is pretty much fully matured; I don't think we can say that for the EV.

Sorry, the facts don't back this up. ICE is a mature technology that often goes many, many years without needing any kind of non-routine maintenance. Complexity is not a problem.

 

[DaveyF]

of course Mike but let's be realistic the same can be said for we audiophiles and the directions in which we go

For my money and my due diligence, this was a no brainer. Every study I found put Sun Power number one and LG and Panasonic next. Tesla is rarely ever found in the top 10 and that's fact. The Tesla roof tiles are beyond expensive and as stated they only re shingle about 30% of your roof with their tiles and you have to hope they match. Most people find that it is not enough and either have to create an auxiliary system or add more Tesla shingles.

My days of $1000/month electric bills are over

Steve, most people don't know this, but there is a problem with the Tesla tiles ..That problem stems from the fact that they are not able to allow sufficient air to circulate beneath the panel..as such, the panel overheats and can cause issues. Apparently Tesla knows this and is working on a solution.

 

[DaveyF]

Sorry, the facts don't back this up. ICE is a mature technology that often goes many, many years without needing any kind of non-routine maintenance. Complexity is not a problem.

Really, have you looked beneath the hood of your new ICE car recently, LOL..or for that matter worked on one recently!

 

[steve williams]

This is just a circular debate the same as last time at this point.

EVs are the future. They just aren't ideal right now because technology hasn't made the promise REAL.

EVs cost a ton, and based on Energy Return on Energy Invested they are probably worse vs a small car like a Honda Fit. The environmental impact of obtaining materials for and manufacturing their batteries and motors is horrendous.

Not everyone is charging EVs with renewable sources of energy. If you use fossil fuel produced electricity to charge your EV it's probably MUCH WORSE vs an ICE car at this point. Why? Power generation from fossil fuels which then charge your EV's battery is less efficient vs burning fossil fuels in an ICE.

And Steve, just the fact you have a $1k/month electric bill puts your perspective WAY out in left field. And a 10.8kW solar system? This is about 10x larger footprint vs what folks in my neighborhood use... and prices around here start at about $400k so it's not exactly a slum. If this is your standard and that of your neighbors I'd argue your perspective is skewed and I'm sorry but it seems people with wealth buy EVs to make themselves feel better about their excessive use of other resources, at this point the car is a drop in the bucket vs maintaining a house like that... and it's all a scam at this point because the advantages of EVs are grossly overstated. I hesitate to bring this up and I'm not judging... I "waste" resources on various things like having a fast ICE car myself, I'm no angel... But the truth is energy resources spent on homes and buildings are far in excess of what cars are responsible for, so if you really want to make a difference the home is the first place to start, and it's entirely feasible to use less than $100/month on electricity. This would make something like 10x the difference of your choice of car.

Dave

I know you get worked up by this topic and I understand where you are coming from. Your premise about the price of homes and the cost of solar is pertinent BUT in a positive way not the way you paint it as wealthy people are the adopters. The reality is that smaller houses have lower monthly electric bills and a system can be designed for a fraction of mine that takes them off the grid as well.

This is not something for the wealthy or well healed as you suggest but rather for everyone. What you fail to see is that if your energy bill is smaller then the cost of your solar grid is much lower. I have a good friend in our community who lives in a smaller house with his wife and his energy bill averages $250 per month. His July bill was over $800. He too is installing a Sun Power grid at a fraction of the cost of mine and he too will be off the SDGE grid.

So let's compare apples to apples Dave as I know how this topic gets you worked up

BTW I don't own an electric car but like you I believe it is the future and the technology is in its infancy. No arguments there. I do admit that I am eyeing the Taycan but so far I have nothing planned

 

[Empirical Audio]

Good luck depending on and believing what China claims to be doing. Middle class growing in China?? Whatever that means. Are those the same people being crushed under tanks or working in the equivalent of America's sweatshops in the early 1900s?

China's economy is expected to overtake the economy of the US in the next 2 years. The government is promoting all kinds of hi-tech development there so they can be self-sufficient. I think you have been asleep at the wheel.

Steve N.