Telefunken RS237

[Zero000]

Big smiles.

Alternative? Seriously? For 3.5K (it is less in pounds for Tom's valves more like £3K) I'd go buy a decent solid state amp from eBay and switch between the 211s and the solid state option every few months.

Variety is the spice of life.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Maybe not.

 

[bonzo75]

Also, if you are worried about bias, you can almost certainly do it yourself.

He does bias himself, quite often.

 

[bonzo75]

What I mean is, I keep hearing that amp designers "voice" their creations around their tube of choice
...Kondo and Nat around the GE 211
...Mayer around the Mayer Elrog 211/242
...AN around the AN 4242

No matter what sofa you buy at what price, you can top up with up with superior quality cushions, or even whole upholstery.

 

[DasguteOhr]

I'll bear him in mind.
Is it really necessary to have a matched quad? I'd say that's practically impossible with the likes of these Telefunkens and Amperex etc, unless you died and went to heaven.
Are matched pairs "good enough"?
And are these Telefunkens good for any 211 amps out there? Mechanically and electrically consistent for all amps using 211 tubes?

No, with push pull amps it is more important that the positive half-wave is amplified the same as the negative half-wave, otherwise you will get inharmonic distortions. What's more important is the same steepness (S value mA/V )for your amp, anything less than 10% difference is almost perfect.
Exsample
Tube 1 = 61mA, S = 3,75mA/V
Tube 2 = 61mA, S = 3,62mA/V

 

[spiritofmusic]

No, with push pull amps it is more important that the positive half-wave is amplified the same as the negative half-wave, otherwise you will get inharmonic distortions. What's more important is the same steepness (S value mA/V )for your amp, anything less than 10% difference is almost perfect.
Exsample
Tube 1 = 61mA, S = 3,75mA/V
Tube 2 = 61mA, S = 3,62mA/V

Sure, so can one really trust eBay online vendors who claim such correlations?
We're not taking cheap signal tubes from Ukraine as I used to try on my preamp a few years ago.
A pair of *so-called* balanced Amperex, UE, Telefunkens is pushing £4-5k.
I'm assuming with the likes of Mayer and AN, the datasheets will be by definition reliable?

 

[spiritofmusic]

No matter what sofa you buy at what price, you can top up with up with superior quality cushions, or even whole upholstery.

Gosh, I really didn't know that Ked.
Can I mix stripes with floral designs?
How about colour combinations?
Please tell me more...

 

[DasguteOhr]

Sure, so can one really trust eBay online vendors who claim such correlations?
We're not taking cheap signal tubes from Ukraine as I used to try on my preamp a few years ago.
A pair of *so-called* balanced Amperex, UE, Telefunkens is pushing £4-5k.
I'm assuming with the likes of Mayer and AN, the datasheets will be by definition reliable?

Of course, with new goods there is always a guarantee and the values are recorded precisely. There is no guarantee with NOS tubes, and first of all, how are you supposed to get identical 80-year-old tubes again? If you want Nos tubes, there are only a few that can provide an adequate replacement in the event of a failure. BTB tubes can only recommend, fast shipping and no problems in the event of a warranty claim.
Here e.g nice 838 you can get easy 35 watt out of this tube

838 Power Triode Jumbo Uf=10V - BTB Elektronik

838 Power Triode Jumbo Uf=10V - Bajonett Jumbo 4-pin tube-valve-base

btb-elektronik.de

 

[spiritofmusic]

Of course, with new goods there is always a guarantee and the values are recorded precisely. There is no guarantee with NOS tubes, and first of all, how are you supposed to get identical 80-year-old tubes again? If you want Nos tubes, there are only a few that can provide an adequate replacement in the event of a failure. BTB tubes can only recommend, fast shipping and no problems in the event of a warranty claim.
Here e.g nice 838 you can get easy 35 watt out of this tube

838 Power Triode Jumbo Uf=10V - BTB Elektronik

838 Power Triode Jumbo Uf=10V - Bajonett Jumbo 4-pin tube-valve-base

btb-elektronik.de

My point was that your perfectly reasonable point about the pressing need for as much "matched" as possible is critical to prevent less than optimal function or malfunction, but it's harder and harder to find matched pairs with the likes of RCA, UE, Amperex, Telefunken, matched quads unobtanium. Even noticeable with GE.
My Q was more, is it ok to have one (as close to as possible) matched pair per monoblock, even if the values per matched pairs are quite different L and R?
I guess re-reading that, the values would only be the same R and L pairs is they were a matched quad.

 

[Zero000]

My point was that your perfectly reasonable point about the pressing need for as much "matched" as possible is critical to prevent less than optimal function or malfunction, but it's harder and harder to find matched pairs with the likes of RCA, UE, Amperex, Telefunken, matched quads unobtanium. Even noticeable with GE.
My Q was more, is it ok to have one (as close to as possible) matched pair per monoblock, even if the values per matched pairs are quite different L and R?
I guess re-reading that, the values would only be the same R and L pairs is they were a matched quad.

My point today - it could change tomorrow - is just buy 211s and hold them. For years. You won't lose money. In fact they will (they have done for me) do better than a shitty banker wanker savings account.

Bankers are the devil. Hard physical assets count. Don't get me wrong I don't mean IOUs, I mean actual ownership.

Watch as the trad banks try and sell people Bitcoin they can never actually own via IOUs. The fractional reserve temptation for them is too high to resist i.e. fake BTC. As per gold's IOUs which are probably 20x odd more than the real supply.

I like your total neurosis on it all, though. You should have been an engineer. Totally the right attitude for the best technical result.

That said, 211 accumulation won't only not lose you money, it should answer all your questions with regard to how do I get to the best sound?

Predict the price of Tom's Moly's 10 years from now.

 

[spiritofmusic]

My point today - it could change tomorrow - is just buy 211s and hold them. For years. You won't lose money. In fact they will (they have done for me) do better than a shitty banker wanker savings account.

Bankers are the devil. Hard physical assets count. Don't get me wrong I don't mean IOUs, I mean actual ownership.

Watch as the trad banks try and sell people Bitcoin they can never actually own via IOUs. The fractional reserve temptation for them is too high to resist i.e. fake BTC. As per gold's IOUs which are probably 20x odd more than the real supply.

I like your total neurosis on it all, though. You should have been an engineer. Totally the right attitude for the best technical result.

That said, 211 accumulation won't only not lose you money, it should answer all your questions with regard to how do I get to the best sound?

Predict the price of Tom's Moly's 10 years from now.

I would buy them if I could guarantee they weren't faulty and sounded great. What happens when you buy them and they're damaged en route or have fault that develops quickly? How are you gonna get your refund?
I've had a GE that became faulty just within the guarantee period of Audio Antiquary that sold them to me, and they were good enough to swap for another tube.
But this isn't happening with the tubes you buy off vendors on eBay.

 

[Zero000]

He does bias himself, quite often.

True, but he does own a hi-fi system.

 

[Zero000]

I would buy them if I could guarantee they weren't faulty and sounded great. What happens when you buy them and they're damaged en route or have fault that develops quickly? How are you gonna get your refund?
I've had a GE that became faulty just within the guarantee period of Audio Antiquary that sold them to me, and they were good enough to swap for another tube.
But this isn't happening with the tubes you buy off vendors on eBay.

Risk. Understand the pros and cons and bet accordingly.

Whilst that's true, you are so compassionate about it all.

But as I said to you offline, don't worry too much about the tech specs of NOS 211s.

Just plug them in and see what happens. Some engineer might tell you otherwise but that's just your path to understanding things via those things actually happening. Easy.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Risk. Understand the pros and cons and bet accordingly.

Whilst that's true, you are so compassionate about it all.

But as I said to you offline, don't worry too much about the tech specs of NOS 211s.

Just plug them in and see what happens. Some engineer might tell you otherwise but that's just your path to understanding things via those things actually happening. Easy.

Of course it's possible to buy NOS 211s, and keep for a rainy day.
But the last time I purchased a quad of GEs in 2022 from Audio Antiquary, they were generous to offer 6 months warranty, and even swapped a faulty one no Qs asked outside this period.
The last time I looked, vendors on eBay are not even offering refunds for tubes damaged en route to buyers, let alone faulty upon use.
It's for this reason above others I'll go Mayer Elrog 211 or AN 4242E, or NOS on the off chance vendors will offer some basic guarantee.