Taiko Tana-LPS-Setchi---listening

rockitman

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I'm pretty certain that was the point I was making :)
To be clear...all TT’s have a feedback loop that runs from the record to cart to arm to arm bd, plinth, bearing if applicable and back again. When this vibration is being actively damped rather than freely flowing as intended and passively damped in the plinth based on TT designer tastes/engineering...we hope any way.

I think with turntables active messes with this feedback loop that is responsibly for the ultimate sound character we hear with a particular TT design. I can’t say for sure this follows to tape or not and have no experience with digital and active isolation. I think power amps (perhaps) or components with separate power supplies will benefit the most. Again, this is my working theory.

Optics are rather clear cut...Sharp or Not...that is what these were designed for. Sound is more complex, subjective. Sharp or not doesn’t do the sound medium justice when trying to describe it.
 

Tango

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To be clear...all TT’s have a feedback loop that runs from the record to cart to arm to arm bd, plinth, bearing if applicable and back again. When this vibration is being actively damped rather than freely flowing as intended and passively damped in the plinth based on TT designer tastes/engineering...we hope any way.

I think with turntables active messes with this feedback loop that is responsibly for the ultimate sound character we hear with a particular TT design. I can’t say for sure this follows to tape or not and have no experience with digital and active isolation. I think power amps (perhaps) or components with separate power supplies will benefit the most. Again, this is my working theory.

Optics are rather clear cut...Sharp or Not...that is what these were designed for. Sound is more complex, subjective. Sharp or not doesn’t do the sound medium justice when trying to describe it.
I think the same. This is why I go rigid super heavy stable rack with Stacore in the mid shelf to work with a phono with separate power supply.

However, I do hope Mike get better sound with his approach. At least my system definitely beat him on the aesthetic point of view :p.

Tang
 
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I’m a bit frustrated with where this discussion is going.
Christian, weren’t you one of the big proponents of active under tts in those initial Herzan threads in 2012-2013?
I believe these very criticisms or objections were put then, but there was a certain railroading of the view that Herzan was so uber comprehensive in its effects that a moving platter was dismissed as not an issue.
Indeed I put some of these reservations fwd myself, but the consensus soon formed amongst you and Mike especially, that if it’s good enough for electron scanning microscopes, it’s good enough for top tts.
Maybe those who now have moved on from active need to re read their posts from that period.
What were you expecting? David manufactures a well thought turntable, optimizing mass, materials and shape, as well as gaps and drive to get a predictable result on a very solid stand. Now we are talking about inserting an active device, relying on PID controllers (feedback devices than analyze present, past and future errors, with unknown time consonants optimized for laboratory equipment) in this turntable system. It is a lottery, and we are just reading speculation on these facts.

I applaud the Taiko people that analyzed the standard version of the tables, and perfected the power supplies to get a better performance. But as far as I could read the work was mainly empirical - they tried several alternative power supplies and listened to them with the available audio equipment. Also as far as I know no one has a model for the interaction of active tables with audio components - and no one is really interested in debating or studying it, as it is a marshy land.

I always suspected that active tables are a lot more than just isolation, but it is only a feeling.

IMHO it is an evolutionary process still in the beginning phase, we can expect that some people will change their opinions with experience. IMHO we should not care too much about the past, but instead live and enjoy the present and specially, do not try to guess the future! :)
 

rockitman

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I’m a bit frustrated with where this discussion is going.
Christian, weren’t you one of the big proponents of active under tts in those initial Herzan threads in 2012-2013?
I believe these very criticisms or objections were put then, but there was a certain railroading of the view that Herzan was so uber comprehensive in its effects that a moving platter was dismissed as not an issue.
Indeed I put some of these reservations fwd myself, but the consensus soon formed amongst you and Mike especially, that if it’s good enough for electron scanning microscopes, it’s good enough for top tts.
Maybe those who now have moved on from active need to re read their posts from that period.
When it worked...it appeared to improve the tech das. There was an HRS shelf buffer between it and the TS140. That probably mitigated the effects of active trying counteract good turntable borne vibrations along with the air bladder feet of the AF1.

What’s the point of the rest of your diatribe ? I don’t like nor agree with the implication you are suggesting...that said... How about you and Entreq ? Want to buy my Silver Tellus boxes and Atlantis cables ?
 
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spiritofmusic

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Ya got me there! Nevertheless I’ll pass on your kind Entreq offer.
 

Ron Resnick

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I’m a bit frustrated with where this discussion is going.
Christian, weren’t you one of the big proponents of active under tts in those initial Herzan threads in 2012-2013?
I believe these very criticisms or objections were put then, but there was a certain railroading of the view that Herzan was so uber comprehensive in its effects that a moving platter was dismissed as not an issue.
Indeed I put some of these reservations fwd myself, but the consensus soon formed amongst you and Mike especially, that if it’s good enough for electron scanning microscopes, it’s good enough for top tts.
Maybe those who now have moved on from active need to re read their posts from that period.
Marc, respectfully, if you're frustrated maybe it is because you are, I think, mistating the evolution of that thread and that analysis. Christian and Mike are not the only audiophiles to use active isolation platforms under their turntables. I think it is quite common to see active isolation platforms under suspension-less turntables. I have seen several Brinkmann Balances on Herzans, for example. There also are OEM solutions where a turntable is integrated with an isolation device (e.g., Doehmann Helix 1 integrated with Minus K).

I think Step One was that it makes sense to place suspension-less turntables on some sort of active isolation or pneumatic isolation platform. The question then became whether it makes sense to do so with turntables which have suspensions of some kind.

PeterA and you and others raised many times the Step Two concern that the motion of the suspension of the turntable would "fight" with the active isolation mechanism of the Herzan and create some sort of feedback loop.

I had a very long and detailed conversation with the CEO of Herzan, in which I explained the operation of a turntable with a suspension and described in detail the concerns expressed about the active isolation fighting with the turntable's suspension. She said she understood everything I was saying, and that the active isolation function of the Herzan operates so quickly that there would be no "fighting" and no feedback loop.

So, to me, that conversation dispatched the theoretical objections to placing a turntable with a suspension on an active isolation platform.

Step 3 was -- and still is -- the actual experimentation with turntables with and without suspensions on active isolation platforms. That is where we are now.

Christian decided ultimately that the TechDAS did not sound good on the Herzan. Just because many people put Brinkmann Balances on active isolation platforms doesn't mean that every turntable without a suspension will sound better on an active isolation platform. The American Sound turntable is an example of a turntable without a suspension which does not sound better when placed on an active isolation platform. (As we know Mike is trying to establish whether the American Sound turntable sounds less good when placed on a Herzan because of design elements specific to the Herzan which might not apply to a more highly-evolved active isolation product, like the Taiko.)

As is usually the case in this hobby it is difficult to make generalisations which will attract majority support. There are too many individual set-ups and individual preferences and unique combinations of components.

What I don't understand, Marc, is why you are trying to establish a dogmatic view that active isolation does not work under turntables. It is as though -- now that you have concluded for yourself, in your idiosyncratic situation, that the Stacore outperforms active isolation -- you feel some need to secure a consensus that your preference is correct as a matter of general applicability. I don't understand why you feel compelled to vanquish the proposition that active isolation might be the right solution for some turntables.
 

Tango

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I think its just a case of hitting button Post Quick Reply too often and too fast. Like Mike used to say there is a Cancel button too.

Wooozaaa everybody.

Tang
 

spiritofmusic

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That’s not my intention at all Ron. Sorry if I gave that impression.
I’ve run ancillaries that were stellar in my old space, but only marginally beneficial in the new, or downright counterproductive. So I know as well as anyone that YMMV, and there’s no point making too many generalisations.
Indeed it’s to Mike’s credit and single mindedness that he’s pushing on with trialling an ultimate application of active under his new AS.
I hope that’s cleared up my views on things.
 

spiritofmusic

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Double post
 
Feb 10, 2017
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I applaud the Taiko people that analyzed the standard version of the tables, and perfected the power supplies to get a better performance. But as far as I could read the work was mainly empirical - they tried several alternative power supplies and listened to them with the available audio equipment.
We have taken the approach of a mix of taking measurements and listening for apparent changes in sound after applying changes to the system. There are measurable changes in the response starting at around 40Hz extending up to around 2000Hz. Ed has visited the Table Stable factory in Switzerland on several occasions to verify our results. From 200Hz and up the differences can be dramatic, up to 30dB in fact. This range is of little interest for the manufacturer as it will make very little difference, if any at all to the performance of laboratory equipment.

Also as far as I know no one has a model for the interaction of active tables with audio components - and no one is really interested in debating or studying it, as it is a marshy land.
Absolutely, unfortunately.


I always suspected that active tables are a lot more than just isolation, but it is only a feeling.
There is definitely more to it then just plain isolation due to the complexity of the system.


IMHO it is an evolutionary process still in the beginning phase, we can expect that some people will change their opinions with experience. IMHO we should not care too much about the past, but instead live and enjoy the present and specially, do not try to guess the future! :)
Agreed, it's an exiting journey, for us at least, I never expected the profound difference this technology can make to a system's performance. You will just have to hear it to believe. Unfortunately the complexity of the system makes it very sensitive to implementation which can make or break it. We have not only significantly enhanced it's performance for audio applications but, as a package, have also greatly improved it's compatibility. For digital gear, I'm pretty confident we have reached a 100% hit rate. For tubed gear I'm guessing we're now in the 85-90% range. For turntables it's much more complicated. We simply don't have access to enough of these, especially the higher priced extreme builds, to establish a baseline.
 

ddk

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No it doesn't. We will contact Table Stable this Monday to see if they have an explanation for this observation.
It is good to know what the system is doing in passive mode compared to off and active the difference in sound quality in each state we heard with the AVI is huge and very clearly audible.
david
 
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It is good to know what the system is doing in passive mode compared to off and active the difference in sound quality in each state we heard with the AVI is huge and very clearly audible.
david
What would help in finding the root cause is knowing the natural resonance frequency of the mass-spring principle of this turntable design. Is that something you could share?
 

ddk

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What would help in finding the root cause is knowing the natural resonance frequency of the mass-spring principle of this turntable design. Is that something you could share?
Hi Edward,

I have the same experience with every turntable (idler, belt, dd, air bearing and traditional bearing) I placed over active platforms designed for scientific and industrial purposes going back to the 90's, this isn't new to me. If you at threads from a couple of years ago I said the exact same thing then when people started mentioning active platforms just as I was adamant when the subject was brought up recently for the AS. Chris found this out over time with his AF1 and now with both the Clear Audio & American Sound turntables. I can tell you that with the AVI what we heard has nothing to do with the power supply, I'm very sensitive to electricity and notice that type of noise, besides it would be there with passive setting too. I knew in advance that the sound would be limp and boring with everything off and over damped and over tight with the system active, I didn't know about the passive mode. That's why I'm wondering if all that occurs is a stiffening of springs, which would make sense given what was heard. I have mixed results with electronics, some benefit with active and some don't it's a question of trial & error.

david
 

spiritofmusic

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And your thoughts on air/pneumatics passive isolation a la Stacore or Vibraplane?
 

ddk

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reading David's post; it seems he has included pneumatic isolation platforms (which are obviously passive, possibly with active leveling) with active platforms. active requires a resonance feedback loop which no pneumatic platforms have.

I've never read about David actually using a piezo-sensor and piezo actuator isolation device until he encountered Christian's NDW-AVI rack. which does not mean he had not.

for instance, the Rockport's had passive pneumatic platforms with active leveling. vibraplanes are passive and can have active leveling. neither are active isolators.
You're right Mike and I've mentioned both in private & public that I don't have direct experience with Herzan platforms and only heard them a couple of times in other people's systems like I did at Christian's place but I do have hands on experience with pneumatic, mechanical and hydraulic active devices. The goal of all of them is the same only the paths differ so with better products the result varies slightly and their effect on sound is quite similar. These are all tools with a purpose and high end audio wasn't their criteria, and I'm comparing their effects to a very solid and massive platform, YMMV based on what you're comparing them to.

david
 
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ddk

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And your thoughts on air/pneumatics passive isolation a la Stacore or Vibraplane?
I don't have any Marc I have never seen a Stacore base you're the one with the experience but talking to Jarek this is an audio specific product which can differentiate from the rest. It's your system and your opinion that matters.

david
 

Ron Resnick

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That’s not my intention at all Ron. Sorry if I gave that impression.
I’ve run ancillaries that were stellar in my old space, but only marginally beneficial in the new, or downright counterproductive. So I know as well as anyone that YMMV, and there’s no point making too many generalisations.
Indeed it’s to Mike’s credit and single mindedness that he’s pushing on with trialling an ultimate application of active under his new AS.
I hope that’s cleared up my views on things.
Fair enough, Marc! I stand corrected. :D

PS: I still have every intention of ordering Stacore platforms for the amplifiers. I feel I do not need to prove empirically that there is going to be vibration of some kind from some source (directly from the speaker or from the speaker and down to and back up through the floor) three feet from the woofer towers.
 

spiritofmusic

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Appreciated Ron.