System Noise has a larger negative effect on sound reproduction.....

[RogerD]

in high end systems than the distortion present in those systems .

True or false?

 

[fas42]

I'm a little unsure of what you're referring to here, Roger. In the "correct" view of such things, noise is a relatively constant level of unwanted added signal in the audio, and distortion is variable and dependent upon the source signal, can be broken down into linear, which is frequency and phase response, relatively benign, though some will vigorously disagree; and non-linear, which is harmonic and intermodulation distortion, the nasty stuff in my book.

I've a feeling that you're talking of low level, non-linear distortion when you say system noise here; am I correct?

Frank

 

[RogerD]

I'm a little unsure of what you're referring to here, Roger. In the "correct" view of such things, noise is a relatively constant level of unwanted added signal in the audio, and distortion is variable and dependent upon the source signal, can be broken down into linear, which is frequency and phase response, relatively benign, though some will vigorously disagree; and non-linear, which is harmonic and intermodulation distortion, the nasty stuff in my book.

I've a feeling that you're talking of low level, non-linear distortion when you say system noise here; am I correct?

Frank

Frank,

Is the term "noise" in audio such a nebulous term? I looked on the internet and found this definition,which to me seems to fit what I'm talking about.

"In common use, the word noise means any unwanted sound. In both analog and digital electronics, noise is random unwanted perturbation to a wanted signal."

There has been much discussion about distortion,sound stage, transparency,room acoustics,but not much about noise. I wanted to start a thread about noise and how it effects the reproduction of sound.

I and Walter Fields of NBS cables can't be the only ones who have gained "clarity,speed,and dynamics by mitigating and by removing "noise" in our systems.

So by the definition posted above, "noise" is different than distortion and can have a dramatic negative effect on the clarity of reproduced sound. Live music,especially in a concert hall is free from noise and has a clarity that is taken for granted. Is it possible to for high end systems to have at least a high percentage of that same clarity? And if so what do we need to do to reduce unwanted noise in our systems?

Maybe like all the other terms and subjects discussed there can only be "nothing definitive" at the conclusion,but let's have a discussion about unwanted noise. I'll start out and name a few areas that I have found to produce detrimental noise.

cable noise
EFI/RFI interference relates heavily to cable noise
Electronics design
Do some capacitors and other electronics components mitigate noise
power grid and power delivery

Maybe some have taken steps to reduce noise in their systems. I would like to hear how they accomplished this and what steps were taken,what were the results on sound quality.

 

[tony ky ma]

in high end systems than the distortion present in those systems .

True or false?

Roger
In system, less noise of cause is better than more noise but depend how to reduce those noise, if in adding heavy feed back of amp to reduce, you will have quiet sound but also less of live, so it will up to your own favor, for me I will take no feed back to have more live feeling and transparency ( my system is all tubes and lot of transformers so can't to compare to those heavy feed back transistor amp for noise)
tony ma

 

[RogerD]

Roger
In system, less noise of cause is better than more noise but depend how to reduce those noise, if in adding heavy feed back of amp to reduce, you will have quiet sound but also less of live, so it will up to your own favor, for me I will take no feed back to have more live feeling and transparency ( my system is all tubes and lot of transformers so can't to compare to those heavy feed back transistor amp for noise)
tony ma

Hi Tony,

In my experience tube and SS amplifiers can produce great clarity,speed,and transparency. I have found a excellent grounding scheme can effect clarity,speed and transparency. Is this noise related? I think so.

 

[tony ky ma]

Hi Tony,

In my experience tube and SS amplifiers can produce great clarity,speed,and transparency. I have found a excellent grounding scheme can effect clarity,speed and transparency. Is this noise related? I think so.

Roger
Proper grounding is one of the way to improve noise and transparency etc, without any to give up at the same time, but will not have same effect degree in all systems, some can have bigger return but some don't, the only thing that we can do is try, and find out the best of for our own system may not suite for others, try and try and compare also with fun too
tony ma

 

[RogerD]

Roger
Proper grounding is one of the way to improve noise and transparency etc, without any to give up at the same time, but will not have same effect degree in all systems, some can have bigger return but some don't, the only thing that we can do is try, and find out the best of for our own system may not suite for others, try and try and compare also with fun too
tony ma

Yes I agree,ground is certainly component dependent. Your point about experimentation and comparing is a big part of reducing noise. I find that "cable noise" is foreign to most and many beleive rightly or wrongly that it can't exist.

 

[tony ky ma]

Roger
I put all my interest in R2R now, but in long time ago I made a lot cables include tonearm interconnect and speaker, different materials and constructions etc, finally found out the best one for myself is 4N silver with a power shielding, on and off the power shielding can have emotionally and detail in different but can find any change in noise ( I can't find any noise from cable)
tony ma

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Of course we really would have to consider how much of the noise and distortion is in the media and recording vs how much is in the "system" to answer the deeper question, but this one? In absolute terms? There is no contest. If I could remove all distortion, ie; a trumpet sounds exactly like a trumpet, Dianna Krall sounds like she's singing in my room, vs keep all the distortions and eliminate the noise floor of a high end system? Take the distortion; I'll keep the noise. There's not a concert venue in the world that doesn't have a higher noise floor than any high-end system that uses those words to describe performance. I think maybe you didn't ask the question really wanted to ask. Or I just misunderstood you.

Tim

 

[RogerD]

Roger
I put all my interest in R2R now, but in long time ago I made a lot cables include tonearm interconnect and speaker, different materials and constructions etc, finally found out the best one for myself is 4N silver with a power shielding, on and off the power shielding can have emotionally and detail in different but can find any change in noise ( I can't find any noise from cable)
tony ma

Tony,

Respectfully that's what I thought. All cables can be antenas and have low level shield noise, in my experience even the most esoteric cables can be affected.

 

[RogerD]

Of course we really would have to consider how much of the noise and distortion is in the media and recording vs how much is in the "system" to answer the deeper question, but this one? In absolute terms? There is no contest. If I could remove all distortion, ie; a trumpet sounds exactly like a trumpet, Dianna Krall sounds like she's singing in my room, vs keep all the distortions and eliminate the noise floor of a high end system? Take the distortion; I'll keep the noise. There's not a concert venue in the world that doesn't have a higher noise floor than any high-end system that uses those words to describe performance. I think maybe you didn't ask the question really wanted to ask. Or I just misunderstood you.

Tim

Tim,

Not all high end systems are of a low enough distortion to produce a faithful trumpet sound? Or is the greater problem low level noise? In my experience you will acheive better,more compelling sound focusing on low level system noise reduction then very low distortion levels in true high end equipment. Your answer is false then to my question.....can you measure low level noise?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Not all high end systems are of a low enough distortion to produce a faithful trumpet sound?

No high end system can produce a faithful trumpet sound. If you think this is not so, you need to get in a room with a trumpet.

Tim

 

[RogerD]

No high end system can produce a faithful trumpet sound. If you think this is not so, you need to get in a room with a trumpet.

Tim

Tim,

Of course the reproduction is relative....otherwise we are fools to invest so much time and money.

Let me ask, low system noise is a non-issue for you? Or you don't know.

 

[garylkoh]

No high end system can produce a faithful trumpet sound. If you think this is not so, you need to get in a room with a trumpet.

+1

But then again, most audiophiles would call a real trumpet (especially with a Harmon mute) "ear bleeding bright" and prefer the dulled, high-end-approved version. That's just my own personal experience and opinion, and has no basis in measurement or fact.

 

[JackD201]

My head is exploding.

 

[FrantzM]

+1

But then again, most audiophiles would call a real trumpet (especially with a Harmon mute) "ear bleeding bright" and prefer the dulled, high-end-approved version. That's just my own personal experience and opinion, and has no basis in measurement or fact.

I alluded to this in another thread, which title I forgot, about the sound of violins. You are so right Gary! It would help more than an audiophile to listen to a real instrument in their own room, record it and hear their system playing it. Many high-end systems, frankly, celebrated and expensive ones dull transient in a way many audiophiles find agreeable but is ultimately far from the truth. And it is not a matter of preference when confronted with this 'reality" most find themselves very surprised. It is to say the least a very humbling experience.

 

[FrantzM]

Roger

I may not have understood your question and your position vis-a-vis noise. Noise is a very broad term and under its definition, which is: "any unwanted signal" in that case sound. If we abide to that definition of "noise" then any and all distortions are "noise".

I would also add that in term of noise, SS and Digital are king. Yet you seem to favor a noisier medium, namely Tapes with Tube electronics both by their very nature "noisier" (produce far more unwanted signals) than SS and digital, Care to explain?

 

[RogerD]

My head is exploding.

Is it the trumpet Jack or the subject and content

 

[garylkoh]

A trumpet with a Harmon mute has harmonics all the way to 50kHz, and sounds that are non-harmonic up to 55kHz. Even if we can't hear if, I'll take Tim's statement "faithful trumpet sound" to mean absolute fidelity reproduction.

Some systems with ribbon tweeters like Jack's or mine can make valiant attempts, but I don't think that production of "faithful trumpet sound" is yet possible. The first place where the reproduction system would fail is at the microphone as the ones commonly used don't have the band width to capture it.

 

[microstrip]

No high end system can produce a faithful trumpet sound. If you think this is not so, you need to get in a room with a trumpet.

Tim

Tim,

I do not pretend to be in the room with the trumpet - I am happy to listen to it at about 15-20 meters and it is what I ask my system to try to reproduce. And usually I do not listen in the middle of the orchestra as I am not a microphone.

Happily I am not one of the musicians of the Leningrad Philharmonic Orchestra sitting in the row in front of the horns section during the recording of Tchaikovsky Symphony No 4 directed by Mravinsky - these russian horns are really dynamic!