Solti Ring 2022 remaster 24/192

ecwl

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2021
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182
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Winnipeg, Canada
I’ve noticed in late 2022 that Das Rheingold from Solti’s Ring was remastered and re-released again.

I’ve been questioning how many times I need to re-purchase this.

Now that Qobuz is in Canada, I realized I can just stream this new 24-bit 192kHz remaster.

So far, I’ve really been impressed by the sound quality and sonic improvements.

And then I found this article on what they did this time around:


Götterdämmerung is not out yet. But now the big debate is whether to keep streaming off Qobuz or just bite the bullet and purchase the whole set when the complete release is out.

The good news for me is that whatever the decision, it’ll be a great one, sonically and financially.

And yes, for those who love vinyl or SACDs, apparently, you can get those versions too. Not my cup of tea but to each his/her/their own.
 

Yeti

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Dec 25, 2020
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There’s also a three part article on Tracking Angle


I have a 70s set, which I find very good and Siegfried on a Decca Digital reissue from around 1990, which isn’t in comparison. My streamer is awaiting a repair to its power supply at the moment so I can’t easily checkout the new reissue.
 
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orfeo_monteverdi

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Jan 16, 2015
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[please forgive my poor English]

I have bought Das Rheingold remastered (2 CDs/SACD hybrid).

The package comes in vinyl-size box, which embed the 2 discs, plus a beautiful book full of pictures and documents related to the recording (and annotated scores too).

The reason I bought that remastered edition on CD/SACD are that
1) my original vinyl copy (Decca) is in bad condition, and is very noisy. I should clean it thoroughly, but no miracle to expect.
And even the brand new vinyl edition of that remaster is said (Tracking Angle, aforementioned article) to be of very good quality, though those vinyls do not reach the SACD/CDs quality issues, says the reviewer.
2) I have no streamer.

Das Ring (4 operas) will be played this year and the next in the Brussels' opera house. I am digging into the works now to explore in advance.
Great music.
 

astrotoy

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May 24, 2010
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Is the atmos version available now? Any link to a purchase site? Thanks, Larry
 

sacdman

New Member
Dec 28, 2023
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Dominic Fyfe, Decca Classics Label Director and Audio Producer said, “Back in 1966 producer John Culshaw expressed the hope that this Ring would set a benchmark for years to come. Half a century later it is still the artistic and technical gold standard." This is no longer true. At the time, it was the gold standard, but since that time, technology has improved and moved forward.

"Culshaw was above all an iconoclast and a visionary who rejoiced in new technology. I have no doubt he would approve of our efforts to utilize Dolby Atmos and the latest suite of remastering tools to make this new HD transfer the most immersive and vivid yet.”

I have to disagree. Taking an existing recording and modifying it to the extent that they have for this release is not only unwarranted, but damaging to the original sound. Trying to modify it to sound more "modern" is simply a gimmick to lure you into buying it again. What was finally laid down on the original tapes was what was appoved by Culshaw and the Decca team. To take the tapes and and compress them and attempt to make it louder is not only ridiculous and damaging to the sound, but it is also dishonest. The original recording should be heard as Culshaw laid it down. Now if Culshaw were alive today, he would simply start the recording process over with the latest technology.

Decca spent time and money remastering this when it was completely unnecessary. To reduce the dynamic range of any recording from the original has been going on for a long time, but it is simply done for listening on lower end equipment, like tiny earbuds, small speakers and cellphones with underpowered amplifiers, or the radio. A format like SACD was designed for the serious home hi-fi listener to have large, full-range speakers and low distortion equipment. Putting such a remaster to SACD was folly.

Now, it would make much more sense to create a "remaster" in mind for those with smaller equipment and listening to streaming services, and then for SACD, a non-remastered version, representing what was actually on the tapes, without tampering, normalizing, compressing, or applying any EQ'ing at all. It was my hope that these SACDs would have a version that had not been tinkered with. Such was not the case. To get that SACD, you need to buy the Stereo Sound edition. That maintains the original Dynamic Range and it represents the original recordings and John Culshaw's vision honestly.

Now, if you prefer listening on smaller equipment and streaming services, fine. I have no arguments against that. Today, the trend toward streaming and listening on smaller equipment like cellphones has become the norm. This has taken us away from really having a much more fulfilling experience by listening to recordings on floor standing speakers with hi-end equipment. This shift from hi-fi is the result of things like economics, cost of living, lifestyle and marketing. These recordings were made long ago before people had cellphones and portable devices and streaming services. To remaster it for equipment it was never recorded for in the first place is absurd in the extreme.
 

ecwl

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2021
216
182
113
Winnipeg, Canada
I have to disagree. Taking an existing recording and modifying it to the extent that they have for this release is not only unwarranted, but damaging to the original sound. Trying to modify it to sound more "modern" is simply a gimmick to lure you into buying it again. What was finally laid down on the original tapes was what was appoved by Culshaw and the Decca team. To take the tapes and and compress them and attempt to make it louder is not only ridiculous and damaging to the sound, but it is also dishonest.

Decca spent time and money remastering this when it was completely unnecessary. To reduce the dynamic range of any recording from the original has been going on for a long time, but it is simply done for listening on lower end equipment, like tiny earbuds, small speakers and cellphones with underpowered amplifiers, or the radio. A format like SACD was designed for the serious home hi-fi listener to have large, full-range speakers and low distortion equipment. Putting such a remaster to SACD was folly.

Now, it would make much more sense to create a "remaster" in mind for those with smaller equipment and listening to streaming services, and then for SACD, a non-remastered version, representing what was actually on the tapes, without tampering, normalizing, compressing, or applying any EQ'ing at all. It was my hope that these SACDs would have a version that had not been tinkered with. Such was not the case. To get that SACD, you need to buy the Stereo Sound edition. That maintains the original Dynamic Range and it represents the original recordings and John Culshaw's vision honestly.
Hmmm... I guess my experience with the 24/192 stereo remastering is quite a bit different than yours. And my feelings towards Dolby Atmos has changed slightly.

First, the prior digital re-transfers were done at 16/44 or 24/48 or 24/44 (not sure) so they have more jitter and poorer transient reproductions. Either way, the transfers were plagued with noise where they were digitally removed using older technologies which also created artifacts. So I don't consider the latest archival transfer into 24/192 to be a "gimmick". To me, this is the best last attempt for archival preservation before the tapes turn to shred and become unusable.

I personally have not noticed that the new 24/192 transfer to be more dynamically compressed than my older CD versions at all. I actually felt that it's to the contrary because without the noise reduction artifacts from the two previous transfers, I found the dynamics to be preserved and I can hear better microdynamics, details and transient accuracy compared to the older transfers.

My understanding of the SACD transfer is from the 24/192 stereo remaster and not a 5.1 SACD transfer from the Dolby Atmos mix.
This review also supports the fact that it's not just me who thought that there was no dynamic compression:
Classical Candor: Wagner: The Golden Ring (SACD review)
The part where I disagree with the review with respect to the 24/192 stream is that I did not find the newer remaster brighter at all.

Now with respect to Dolby Atmos re-mixing of stereo tracks, I used to hate it. My dealer has Dolby Atmos setup and I've tried it at his store for pop music and classical music and I personally was slightly underwhelmed. Dolby Atmos mixes sometimes have higher dynamic range than the previous mix:
Do Immersive Audio Mixes Sound Better? - Immersive Audiophile - Audiophile Style
Part of the issue is that if you stream the Dolby Atmos mix from Apple Music, it is a lossy stream, rather than the lossless stream. And I don't believe you can buy the original lossless Dolby Atmos stream anywhere at this time. Not totally sure though.

But the reason why I am less averse to Dolby Atmos remastering nowadays (other than my personal ambivalence towards the format) is that stereo mixes are also mixes. Solti's Ring is a perfect example. Our older vinyl/CDs were not recorded on a single microphone and then directly transferred to disc. The recording was done on multiple microphones and the various tracks are mixed and combined with steering of the microphone outputs towards left/right channel during the mixing process (not to mention EQ, normalizing, etc). Hence, to me, there is nothing inherently "wrong" when you take the same multi-microphone recording and then mix it for a Dolby Atmos multi-channel format. I mean, you can argue that it might be better if multiple multichannel microphones are setup to record in Dolby Atmos first and then the multichannel microphone inputs are then mixed into Dolby Atmos would create a more realistic soundfield.

Of course, in audio, it is fun for different people to have different opinions on the same tracks. At the end of the day, all versions of Solti's Ring are still available somehow to people so we can always pick and choose which version we like the most to listen to and enjoy. And the ones we don't like, we can always sell online to recoup some costs back.
 

acousticsguru

Well-Known Member
Feb 17, 2014
507
326
373
Dominic Fyfe, Decca Classics Label Director and Audio Producer said, “Back in 1966 producer John Culshaw expressed the hope that this Ring would set a benchmark for years to come. Half a century later it is still the artistic and technical gold standard." This is no longer true. At the time, it was the gold standard, but since that time, technology has improved and moved forward.

"Culshaw was above all an iconoclast and a visionary who rejoiced in new technology. I have no doubt he would approve of our efforts to utilize Dolby Atmos and the latest suite of remastering tools to make this new HD transfer the most immersive and vivid yet.”

I have to disagree. Taking an existing recording and modifying it to the extent that they have for this release is not only unwarranted, but damaging to the original sound. Trying to modify it to sound more "modern" is simply a gimmick to lure you into buying it again. What was finally laid down on the original tapes was what was appoved by Culshaw and the Decca team. To take the tapes and and compress them and attempt to make it louder is not only ridiculous and damaging to the sound, but it is also dishonest. The original recording should be heard as Culshaw laid it down. Now if Culshaw were alive today, he would simply start the recording process over with the latest technology.

Decca spent time and money remastering this when it was completely unnecessary. To reduce the dynamic range of any recording from the original has been going on for a long time, but it is simply done for listening on lower end equipment, like tiny earbuds, small speakers and cellphones with underpowered amplifiers, or the radio. A format like SACD was designed for the serious home hi-fi listener to have large, full-range speakers and low distortion equipment. Putting such a remaster to SACD was folly.

Now, it would make much more sense to create a "remaster" in mind for those with smaller equipment and listening to streaming services, and then for SACD, a non-remastered version, representing what was actually on the tapes, without tampering, normalizing, compressing, or applying any EQ'ing at all. It was my hope that these SACDs would have a version that had not been tinkered with. Such was not the case. To get that SACD, you need to buy the Stereo Sound edition. That maintains the original Dynamic Range and it represents the original recordings and John Culshaw's vision honestly.

Now, if you prefer listening on smaller equipment and streaming services, fine. I have no arguments against that. Today, the trend toward streaming and listening on smaller equipment like cellphones has become the norm. This has taken us away from really having a much more fulfilling experience by listening to recordings on floor standing speakers with hi-end equipment. This shift from hi-fi is the result of things like economics, cost of living, lifestyle and marketing. These recordings were made long ago before people had cellphones and portable devices and streaming services. To remaster it for equipment it was never recorded for in the first place is absurd in the extreme.
Comparing Stereo Sound SACD to the 24/192 PCM of the 2022 Remastered version on Qobuz, both via storage NAS, i.e. identical playback chain (not streaming the one and playing back the other using a transport, but what I feel is as fair a comparison as possible), I agree the Stereo Sound SACD release sounds best - a few years ago also compared 24/48 PCM from Blu-ray, as well as the 24/44 PCM download (a resampling of the Blu-ray that unsurprisingly sounds a bit worse again) to the Esoteric SACD (that again appears to be based on the 24/48 PCM, but "remastered"), so I feel confident to say the Stereo Sound is the best sounding digital release I've heard. Rather less dry than the LP, colorful with lovely tonality (none of the excess fat of the Esoteric SACD), and the speech intelligibility I've never heard better (pet peeve when it comes to opera - Wagner takes hours and hours, pointless if one can't understand a thing).

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
 
Last edited:

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
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Comparing Stereo Sound SACD to the 24/192 PCM of the 2022 Remastered version on Qobuz, both via storage NAS, i.e. identical playback chain (not streaming the one and playing back the other using a transport, but what I feel is as fair a comparison as possible), I agree the Stereo Sound SACD release sounds best - a few years ago also compared 24/28 PCM DVD or Blu-ray, and 24/44 PCM download to the Esoteric SACD, so I feel confident to say the Stereo Sound is the best sounding digital release I've heard. Rather less dry than the LP, colorful with lovely tonality (none of the excess fat of the Esoteric SACD), and the speech intelligibility I've never heard better (pet peeve when it comes to opera - Wagner takes hours and hours, pointless if one can't understand a thing).

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
Great to hear...thanks for taking the time. I think the Stereo Sound is ONLY SACD (not Hybrid SACD)? I just found the recent remasterings 2022 which apparently are quite good (and include Redbook) so will be trying those when they arrive.
 

acousticsguru

Well-Known Member
Feb 17, 2014
507
326
373
Great to hear...thanks for taking the time. I think the Stereo Sound is ONLY SACD (not Hybrid SACD)? I just found the recent remasterings 2022 which apparently are quite good (and include Redbook) so will be trying those when they arrive.
Please note I edited my post above! Unfortunately I was late to the party and couldn't secure a copy of the Stereo Sound SACDs, but yes, all the others I have are single layer (no Hybrids, instead packaged along with a redbook CD of the same material - some may say unnecessary, but I love the attention to detail).

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,430
2,518
1,448
Please note I edited my post above! Unfortunately I was late to the party and couldn't secure a copy of the Stereo Sound SACDs, but yes, all the others I have are single layer (no Hybrids, instead packaged along with a redbook CD of the same material - some may say unnecessary, but I love the attention to detail).

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
Thanks...the ones I secured are from Japan (better price) and using the 2022 remaster which has been well received...lets see! Photo below of 1 of the 4. https://www.amazon.co.jp/-/en/gp/product/B0BCGX39HW/ref=ppx_od_dt_b_asin_image_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

1710104299580.png
 

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