Sme 3012 R

I know this old arm is good but I don’t know why David,Rockitman,Tang,Ron,Mike
Use or will use having top tonearm like Sat,EliteAxiom,Black Beauty,Durand

Why 3012 is so special?
I never had and I don’t understand
Only to know for my curiosity
Regards
Gian

 

This is what you got Davey? This takes the wisdom you've brought to this thread to the next level, BRAVO! You said it many time you moved on so what are you still trolling around here for? At least keep this part of the thread honest, we're not buddies.

david

LOL, you are finally getting a clue....we are absolutely NOT buddies.

 

The puerility displayed in this thread is startling. It resembles a kindergarten spat about whos father is the strongest. This silliness is surely an outflow from the name of this forum. Why on earth should something be the best of anything ?

How boring life would be if we all just drank the same best wine or used the same best toilet paper.

If one likes smaller precisely drawn pictures of dynamically constrained tightly controlled smaller systems ,you will need a source that is ostensibly less coloured and appears more dynamic sounding. If on the other hand you like your music large and free with bold impressionistic strokes that may not be as tonally accurate your source may well be allowed to sacrifice some tightness and faux dynamics in exchange for a freer (more natural?) sound.

I would be very surprised if someone who likes the 3012 would get along with the V and its derivatives just as I would be surprised if a lover of the SME tables gets along with a broadcast idler. Surprisingly there are even people,like me,who dislike both the 3012 and the V albeit for different reasons.

There is no What’s Best of anything. There seems to be a What’s Best hobby though where the practitioners of such travel the world,partaking in endless “shoot outs” in their futile pursuit. Audio Components are only a casual choice in such duels with any of these participants equally happy to swap their weapon of choice for wines,cars, rifles ,horses or whatever.

jdza, it has nothing to do with gear it's just a brawl... sometimes that's what's called for and this one's been stewing for a while, just sorry that others have to watch the spectacle but it wasn't avoidable.

Edit- I’m glad the mods let the nonsense run it course, I don’t know about the others but it’s out of my system and they can drop their act.

david

 

Tang, David may know more about why the 3012R was discontinued. I think he was an SME dealer at the time. SME started out as the Scale Model Equipment company. It was founded by Alastair Robertson-Aikman (ARA), an audiophile and music lover, particularly of opera. His listening room was legendary. He was great friends with the head archivist at the Vienna State Opera and gave him a Model 30/12 for his 60th birthday. Many of the musicians in the Vienna Philharmonic have SME tables and arms. ARA ran a successful business, but I think his passion was music. I'm not sure that his main objective was "certainly different from ours".

ARA wanted a new tonearm for his own use, one that was better than what was then available. His engineers designed one, ARA and his music friends thought it sounded great, and it was developed into a commercial product. The rest is history. I presume SME wants to make money. However, with an audiophile at the helm, and other, non-audio customers providing the business with steady income, it is not clear to me that one can conclude that the newer V arm and its descendants were developed just to increase profits. I don't understand how this idea got started. Is it not also possible that SME wanted to meet a new demand in the market and improve their current products? The older arms were selling very well. I think in part that the new arms were a response to the newer moving coil cartridges, and David said something about the new, lighter, suspended turntables which were becoming popular having an influence on the design of these arms.

Remember too that the 3012R and V arms were sold concurrently, at least for a short while. It is possible that at least some of their engineers were not of "different eras". There was an overlap between the arms. I don't know if one or more of the engineers were involved with both arms or not, but without knowing the details, I think we should refrain from some of these assumptions.

I am curious. Have you no interest in hearing the V-12 arm in your system? You own many arms and duplicates, and you seem to want variety of sound and enjoy comparisons. Now that you own a 3012R and are aware of SME, are you not at least a little bit curious about how their current flagship arm would sound in your system? I get that you and the others who own the 3012R like it a lot. But for some reason, no one seems even interested in trying the new SME arm in one of these excellent systems on a non SME turntable. Perhaps everyone has heard that David does not like the V arm. However, relative to some of the other $12K-$30K arms out there, the V and V-12 are relative bargains. Many early photos of the AF1 and the Kronos even show V-12 arms mounted on them. The new TechDAS V table has two V arms mounted on it for the publicity photo.

Someone suggested in this thread that much of the V arm is about marketing. The box does indeed have the rather bold statement: "The best pick up arm in the world." It seems to me that their marketing is not so great because the new arms seem to be dismissed and not even considered by the very high end audiophiles. With the exception of a few vintage arm designs, this subset of our hobby seems to focus on more expensive tone arms and SME is no longer one of the really expensive arms. SME does not advertise much in the US, and yet there top tables are backordered, so there seems to be a lot of demand. Perhaps there is just no buzz about the brand. In typical British fashion, the company is understated. They sell a lot of product, so they don't advertise much. One thing is for sure. SME is not a couple of guys in a garage selling a few products a year.

Peter, i think they are currently gearing up, with new turntable packages and marketing campaigns. Somehow they even had a visit from Fremer recently, that does not happen without money being made and spent somewhere!

 

Thank you sir. Have some Danish pastries, a cup of coffee, and a great day sir.

View attachment 43200

Peace,
Tang

Now your making me hungry !

 

No senior ddk, you are the one making moronic statements in all of this, with the language that you use. It's fascinating that people give you money and do business with trolls like yourself. Even more fascinating is the fact they call you a 'friend'. What I summarized above is all the crap that has been written in this thread

Indeed it is fascinating that people give him money and do business with him...wow!

 

Indeed it is fascinating that people give him money and do business with him...wow!

And maybe that is the real reason for this little spat ! Jealousy.
Personally i’m jealous to, i want to go to asia and hear those systems to !
Need a water boy ddk ?
And no Tang water boy is not something sexual !

 

Peter,
Francisco said it first, this is a 3012-R thread that’s what people want to discuss here perhaps you can start a V12 thread and find out who’s interested. I’m not an absolutist if you want to know my lack of interest goes back to a long time, when I found my happy place 20 years ago. I have other tonearms on my turntables too but they all have removable headshells, it’s one of my requirements. V12 doesn’t have one and I’ve alread tried other SMEs that do. I believe there are others on this thread who prefer the flexibility of a removable headshell. As I said before the showdown is your quest, you should do it and write about it.

david

Tang, David may know more about why the 3012R was discontinued. I think he was an SME dealer at the time. SME started out as the Scale Model Equipment company. It was founded by Alastair Robertson-Aikman (ARA), an audiophile and music lover, particularly of opera. His listening room was legendary. He was great friends with the head archivist at the Vienna State Opera and gave him a Model 30/12 for his 60th birthday. Many of the musicians in the Vienna Philharmonic have SME tables and arms. ARA ran a successful business, but I think his passion was music. I'm not sure that his main objective was "certainly different from ours".

ARA wanted a new tonearm for his own use, one that was better than what was then available. His engineers designed one, ARA and his music friends thought it sounded great, and it was developed into a commercial product. The rest is history. I presume SME wants to make money. However, with an audiophile at the helm, and other, non-audio customers providing the business with steady income, it is not clear to me that one can conclude that the newer V arm and its descendants were developed just to increase profits. I don't understand how this idea got started. Is it not also possible that SME wanted to meet a new demand in the market and improve their current products? The older arms were selling very well. I think in part that the new arms were a response to the newer moving coil cartridges, and David said something about the new, lighter, suspended turntables which were becoming popular having an influence on the design of these arms.

Remember too that the 3012R and V arms were sold concurrently, at least for a short while. It is possible that at least some of their engineers were not of "different eras". There was an overlap between the arms. I don't know if one or more of the engineers were involved with both arms or not, but without knowing the details, I think we should refrain from some of these assumptions.

I am curious. Have you no interest in hearing the V-12 arm in your system? You own many arms and duplicates, and you seem to want variety of sound and enjoy comparisons. Now that you own a 3012R and are aware of SME, are you not at least a little bit curious about how their current flagship arm would sound in your system? I get that you and the others who own the 3012R like it a lot. But for some reason, no one seems even interested in trying the new SME arm in one of these excellent systems on a non SME turntable. Perhaps everyone has heard that David does not like the V arm. However, relative to some of the other $12K-$30K arms out there, the V and V-12 are relative bargains. Many early photos of the AF1 and the Kronos even show V-12 arms mounted on them. The new TechDAS V table has two V arms mounted on it for the publicity photo.

Someone suggested in this thread that much of the V arm is about marketing. The box does indeed have the rather bold statement: "The best pick up arm in the world." It seems to me that their marketing is not so great because the new arms seem to be dismissed and not even considered by the very high end audiophiles. With the exception of a few vintage arm designs, this subset of our hobby seems to focus on more expensive tone arms and SME is no longer one of the really expensive arms. SME does not advertise much in the US, and yet there top tables are backordered, so there seems to be a lot of demand. Perhaps there is just no buzz about the brand. In typical British fashion, the company is understated. They sell a lot of product, so they don't advertise much. One thing is for sure. SME is not a couple of guys in a garage selling a few products a year.

 

And maybe that is the real reason for this little spat ! Jealousy.
Personally i’m jealous to, i want to go to asia and hear those systems to !
Need a water boy ddk ?

, most of these people are pretty hospitable and are happy to open their doors to you. The social aspect is a big part of high end in Asia as is with many here. You’re always welcome to visit me too.
david

 

, most of these people are pretty hospitable and are happy to open their doors to you. The social aspect is a big part of high end in Asia as is with many here. You’re always welcome to visit me too.
david

Thank you David ! But i dont think i can afford it, it would probably make me want a AS2000 !

 

I am curious. Have you no interest in hearing the V-12 arm in your system? You own many arms and duplicates, and you seem to want variety of sound and enjoy comparisons. Now that you own a 3012R and are aware of SME, are you not at least a little bit curious about how their current flagship arm would sound in your system? I get that you and the others who own the 3012R like it a lot. But for some reason, no one seems even interested in trying the new SME arm in one of these excellent systems on a non SME turntable. Perhaps everyone has heard that David does not like the V arm. However, relative to some of the other $12K-$30K arms out there, the V and V-12 are relative bargains. Many early photos of the AF1 and the Kronos even show V-12 arms mounted on them. The new TechDAS V table has two V arms mounted on it for the publicity photo.....

One thing is for sure. SME is not a couple of guys in a garage selling a few products a year.

Dear Peter,

To be frank, the noise on the V arm is much less than the 3012R in this forum. And my main source of audio info is from this forum. I only hear from you just now that David doesn’t like the V arm so this definitely didn’t have any influence in my decision to buy 3012R. Once again I bought the 3012R because I want to know why this David guy only uses this primitive old fashioned looking arm. And also want to hear the American Sound in the perspective of the maker...no antivibe no grounding wire attached to the arms. The darn arm just turns out to sound terrific to my ears. I really don’t know how to explain to you why all the sudden I stop or no longer itch finding out new arms. Not just the SME V arm. Even “Mr.T” told me to try the Thales Statement which is his new top arm and he probably lend it to me if I asked, but I just don’t have no urges really. Maybe because I already have experiences with Axiom and SAT which many perceive to be top of the heap arm already. I personally think I have reached pretty much the peak in term of my front end. Don’t forget that I also have a pretty decent tape front to compare when I say this. So if I ever need another arm which I don’t because I have more arms than my tts required now, I would buy another 3012R because I know how it sounds and it is cheap. My money would go into something else for my system to improve further. My urges for flavor can be satisfied buying different carts. But never say never, if Gian, Bill and the General manage to wake up the devil in me, an Atlantis might as well pop up in Bangkok .

About the garage guys. I personally think they are more passionate, more drive and have more chance creating a breakthrough than the well established aging manufacturer that unavoidably have to think more how to keep feeding their long time employeess with high salaries doing the same job that can be replaced or outsourced. Fact of business.
Think Marc Gomez, Schroeder, not exactly garage now but you get the point.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

...

About the garage guys. I personally think they are more passionate, more drive and have more chance creating a breakthrough than the well established aging manufacturer that unavoidably have to think more how to keep feeding their long time employeess with high salaries doing the same job that can be replaced or outsourced. Fact of business.
Think Marc Gomez, Schroeder, not exactly garage now but you get the point.

Kind regards,
Tang

Nirvana was a garage music band, from Seattle, USA.

Tang, how hot is it in Bangkok right now; here it's super hot, so hot that if you move, or even talk, think, you get all sweaty and you need a cold bath/shower.

 

Tang, how hot is it in Bangkok right now; here it's super hot, so hot that if you move, or even talk, think, you get all sweaty and you need a cold bath/shower.

I assume his office has air con. Outside the office is not relevant to SME 3012r discussion, unless the current SME engineers frequent Bangkok in the heat

 

Nirvana was a garage music band, from Seattle, USA.

Tang, how hot is it in Bangkok right now; here it's super hot, so hot that if you move, or even talk, think, you get all sweaty and you need a cold bath/shower.

Dear NorthStar. Why did you have to call me back in. I already left this room to the other room sipping iced caramel Macchiato with Ron.

Tang :b

 

Dear NorthStar. Why did you have to call me back in. I already left this room to the other room sipping iced caramel Macchiato with Ron.

Tang :b

Hi Tang. and I hope spinning some vinyl listening to some cool tunes with that Macchiato

I am actually getting a better appreciation of the Etna SL when testing a Tenuto copper mat vs my micro seiki cu-180 Every cart has its subtleties which many tonearms can bring out easily.

 

Hi Tang. and I hope spinning some vinyl listening to some cool tunes with that Macchiato

I am actually getting a better appreciation of the Etna SL when testing a Tenuto copper mat vs my micro seiki cu-180 Every cart has its subtleties which many tonearms can bring out easily.

View attachment 43202

If you had to choose between the atlas and the Etna SL, would the choice change based on the mat?

 

If you had to choose between the atlas and the Etna SL, would the choice change based on the mat?

Hi Ked. the Atlas SL is the better cartridge period - imo. That does not mean the Etna SL does not sound great and can sound better on the odd record.

Mat will not change the choice, however mat does change the sound a little thou - enjoying the Etna SL with the SAEC-SS-300 steel mat currently - adds a little clarity that in my system is needed and brings out the Etna's forward vocals as more natural..

I have a NOS micro seiki cu-180 coming from Germany that will be for the Atlas SL. very much looking forward to that - fingers crossed it arrives in one piece.

 

Hi Tang. and I hope spinning some vinyl listening to some cool tunes with that Macchiato

I am actually getting a better appreciation of the Etna SL when testing a Tenuto copper mat vs my micro seiki cu-180 Every cart has its subtleties which many tonearms can bring out easily.

View attachment 43202

The Tenuto is excellent. The designer, Guy, is on this forum as guyser, not a frequent poster. He was on the two man design team of voyd reference many decades ago, when he was in college. His DIY horn is covered here http://zero-distortion.org/diy-horns/

 

(...) I am curious. Have you no interest in hearing the V-12 arm in your system? You own many arms and duplicates, and you seem to want variety of sound and enjoy comparisons. Now that you own a 3012R and are aware of SME, are you not at least a little bit curious about how their current flagship arm would sound in your system? I get that you and the others who own the 3012R like it a lot. But for some reason, no one seems even interested in trying the new SME arm in one of these excellent systems on a non SME turntable. Perhaps everyone has heard that David does not like the V arm. However, relative to some of the other $12K-$30K arms out there, the V and V-12 are relative bargains. Many early photos of the AF1 and the Kronos even show V-12 arms mounted on them. The new TechDAS V table has two V arms mounted on it for the publicity photo.

Someone suggested in this thread that much of the V arm is about marketing. The box does indeed have the rather bold statement: "The best pick up arm in the world." It seems to me that their marketing is not so great because the new arms seem to be dismissed and not even considered by the very high end audiophiles. With the exception of a few vintage arm designs, this subset of our hobby seems to focus on more expensive tone arms and SME is no longer one of the really expensive arms. SME does not advertise much in the US, and yet there top tables are backordered, so there seems to be a lot of demand. Perhaps there is just no buzz about the brand. In typical British fashion, the company is understated. They sell a lot of product, so they don't advertise much. One thing is for sure. SME is not a couple of guys in a garage selling a few products a year.

Peter,

I am not David, but no. I would never put a SME V12 in my EMT927 - sorry! It would look ugly and not natural - I couldn't expect it to sound good. I could imagine myself looking to hear all the rumble going through the massive structure to the stylus tip! Brrr! The same way I am not interested in a direct comparison between 927/3012r with a SME30/V system . But I really appreciate listening to the SME30/V's in a few friends systems and I find the complete system appealing - besides sounding excellent, there is a industrial integrity in its design that I find charming.

Forget about the marketing - we will not learn anything from it, unless our interest is audio gossip.

Stereo is extremely subjective and IMHO needs some mind focusing. Sometimes when people start doubting of everything and relying too much on other people and audio internet groups who have strong divergent, even opposite opinions, they end up selling the system and taking an audio sabbatical...

 

Indeed it is fascinating that people give him money and do business with him...wow!

Really ? You, ACK and Al started ALL of this Bullshit and polluted this thread ! and it's not the first time either.

 

Peter, i think they are currently gearing up, with new turntable packages and marketing campaigns. Somehow they even had a visit from Fremer recently, that does not happen without money being made and spent somewhere!

Yes. They have new ownership, and the founder/music lover is no longer at the helm. I do not know the extent and importance of the rest of their business involvement with other non audio enterprises. My layman's understanding of the origin of the music part of the business was an attempt to put into context what may have been the initial motivation of the founder when the original arms were developed. Clearly, these are different times and the new owner has a series of audio businesses and I suspect tht he would like to grow and make money. Fremer has made some good factory tours and it will be interesting to see how the company moves forward, particularly with their recent purchase of Garrard and Loricraft.