Sme 3012 R

I know this old arm is good but I don’t know why David,Rockitman,Tang,Ron,Mike
Use or will use having top tonearm like Sat,EliteAxiom,Black Beauty,Durand

Why 3012 is so special?
I never had and I don’t understand
Only to know for my curiosity
Regards
Gian

 

I have no problem with skeptics or the curious but this lot is neither.

david

David, I don't know if I'm one of "the 3" that you keep referring to. I think it is clear that I have expressed curiosity about the 3012R arm, especially relative to its replacement, the V-12, which I own and like very much. I have gone to the effort to investigate whether or not the 3012R will fit on my SME table. It won't. I have spoken to you privately about an outboard arm pod, and to SME directly about the dimensions needed for such an arm pod, all for the purpose of possibly trying one in my system. I asked you to sell me an armpod and arm to try in my system, but at the time, you were understandably too busy with the AS2000 project and deliveries. That is why I called SME. Is my behavior considered "trolling"? Have I expressed skepticism about this arm? If anything, I think I have expressed interest.

I have asked many questions on this thread and others trying to learn more about the arm. Most have gone unanswered. The fact remains that I was interested in hearing from anyone who has done a direct comparison between the 3012R and the V-12 in any system, on any turntable, using the same cartridge. No one has come forward. You told me that you have not even heard the V-12, but that you really dislike the 9" SME V arm. I have compared the V-12 and V arms directly in my system, and I heard significant differences.

So, there is little to go on except for some very enthusiastic owners enjoying the arm. That is great. I am happy that they have a sound they like, and they can save money in the meantime, as this arm seems to be a true bargain on the used market.

I would have been interested in reading comparisons from Steve and from Christian between their modern arms and their new 3012Rs using the same cartridge. Steve's preference for the 3012R is based on using different cartridges, and many would contend that the ZYX is better than the Anna. I don't really know if Christian has compared his Graham arms to the 3012R using the same cartridge. I look forward to Tang one day directly comparing the SAT to the 3012R using the same cartridge. Madfloyd and I discussed arm boards last night and the possibility that he might consider a 3012R for his Kronos.

On the Kronos, the arm board gets adjusted on the turntable chassis, so switching arms is a bit more complicated. Ian could buy a second arm board for the 3012R and then mount it in the one location, switching arms and boards and lining one up with the marks and tightening. On my SME, the arm board is always precisely fixed, so were the 3012R able to fit on my Model 30/12, I would buy a second arm board and simply leave each arm on a separate arm board to drop in the location when I wanted to switch arms. In that sense, the SME solution is very nice and elegant, but extra arm boards cost more than the 3012R itself.

Is any of this unreasonable or close to "trolling"? I suppose that from my perspective, there is little new to learn about this subject because we are going around in circles, and now the skeptics or those asking questions are being called out as trolls. I suppose I should just move on and try to hear the arm in a familiar system.

I am sorry to see the turn that this once interesting thread has taken.

 

View attachment 43186

Best,

853guy

+1

What are we becoming? We are losing the essence of maturity, decency and respect.

 

David, I don't know if I'm one of "the 3" that you keep referring to. I think it is clear that I have expressed curiosity about the 3012R arm, especially relative to its replacement, the V-12, which I own and like very much. I have gone to the effort to investigate whether or not the 3012R will fit on my SME table. It won't. I have spoken to you privately about an outboard arm pod, and to SME directly about the dimensions needed for such an arm pod, all for the purpose of possibly trying one in my system. I asked you to sell me an armpod and arm to try in my system, but at the time, you were understandably too busy with the AS2000 project and deliveries. That is why I called SME. Is my behavior considered "trolling"? Have I expressed skepticism about this arm? If anything, I think I have expressed interest.

I have asked many questions on this thread and others trying to learn more about the arm. Most have gone unanswered. The fact remains that I was interested in hearing from anyone who has done a direct comparison between the 3012R and the V-12 in any system, on any turntable, using the same cartridge. No one has come forward. You told me that you have not even heard the V-12, but that you really dislike the 9" SME V arm. I have compared the V-12 and V arms directly in my system, and I heard significant differences.

So, there is little to go on except for some very enthusiastic owners enjoying the arm. That is great. I am happy that they have a sound they like, and they can save money in the meantime, as this arm seems to be a true bargain on the used market.

I would have been interested in reading comparisons from Steve and from Christian between their modern arms and their new 3012Rs using the same cartridge. Steve's preference for the 3012R is based on using different cartridges, and many would contend that the ZYX is better than the Anna. I don't really know if Christian has compared his Graham arms to the 3012R using the same cartridge. I look forward to Tang one day directly comparing the SAT to the 3012R using the same cartridge. Madfloyd and I discussed arm boards last night and the possibility that he might consider a 3012R for his Kronos.

On the Kronos, the arm board gets adjusted on the turntable chassis, so switching arms is a bit more complicated. Ian could buy a second arm board for the 3012R and then mount it in the one location, switching arms and boards and lining one up with the marks and tightening. On my SME, the arm board is always precisely fixed, so were the 3012R able to fit on my Model 30/12, I would buy a second arm board and simply leave each arm on a separate arm board to drop in the location when I wanted to switch arms. In that sense, the SME solution is very nice and elegant, but extra arm boards cost more than the 3012R itself.

Is any of this unreasonable or close to "trolling"? I suppose that from my perspective, there is little new to learn about this subject because we are going around in circles, and now the skeptics or those asking questions are being called out as trolls. I suppose I should just move on and try to hear the arm in a familiar system.

I am sorry to see the turn that this once interesting thread has taken.

So well said Peter
I really have got sick of this arm
Stick with what you have Peter you have a wonderful system

 

I know this old arm is good but I don’t know why David,Rockitman,Tang,Ron,Mike
Use or will use having top tonearm like Sat,EliteAxiom,Black Beauty,Durand

Why 3012 is so special?
I never had and I don’t understand
Only to know for my curiosity
Regards
Gian

For my own edification, I revisited the OP. To get this thread back on track, perhaps we should focus on Gian's excellent question.

I am not the vinyl guru that most of you here are but I do know what I like. I was also interested in the tedious setup of the SAT arm in Tang's system. Every time David did one measurement it threw another measurement off, making the arm difficult to set up. Such is not the case with this SME 3012

I find this comment very interesting. Why would the various set up parameters on the 3012R not be affected by the adjustment of one of them? I think a longer arm has something to do with this. Mr. Fremer writes that anything not quite right with the set up or alignment of a longer arm is amplified by the added length increasing tracking distortions. I have found through measurements that slight changes in arm height or VTA make very little difference to VTF with my arm. I always thought that adjusting one thing affects the other things, and that all arms are susceptible to this through basic physics. Depending on the arm's designs and the listener's perceptions, these effects may be more or less important.

Does anyone know why this seems different between the SAT and 3012R?

 

I've not personally compared a 'ddk-tweaked' 3012r to a modern arm I'm familiar with in a familiar system. my mind is open to any possibility. certainly a few very respected members seem to agree that it's special. so I would expect to also agree.

but labeling skeptics as trolls and 'just you 3' is really wrong. especially considering the negative SME comments from 3012r proponents. why is that not trolling too based on this logic.

lot's of non-ddk kool aid drinkers are not posting their skepticism.....for whatever reason.

I say this as a 'semi' ddk cool aid drinker myself.

Mike - will you be using an SME3012r on your AS? You will be in good position to compare to say your Durand.

 

Absolutely not Peter, I was speaking to ack, Dave F & Al., I’m out now will reply to the rest of your post later.
david

David, I don't know if I'm one of "the 3" that you keep referring to. I think it is clear that I have expressed curiosity about the 3012R arm, especially relative to its replacement, the V-12, which I own and like very much. I have gone to the effort to investigate whether or not the 3012R will fit on my SME table. It won't. I have spoken to you privately about an outboard arm pod, and to SME directly about the dimensions needed for such an arm pod, all for the purpose of possibly trying one in my system. I asked you to sell me an armpod and arm to try in my system, but at the time, you were understandably too busy with the AS2000 project and deliveries. That is why I called SME. Is my behavior considered "trolling"? Have I expressed skepticism about this arm? If anything, I think I have expressed interest.

I have asked many questions on this thread and others trying to learn more about the arm. Most have gone unanswered. The fact remains that I was interested in hearing from anyone who has done a direct comparison between the 3012R and the V-12 in any system, on any turntable, using the same cartridge. No one has come forward. You told me that you have not even heard the V-12, but that you really dislike the 9" SME V arm. I have compared the V-12 and V arms directly in my system, and I heard significant differences.

So, there is little to go on except for some very enthusiastic owners enjoying the arm. That is great. I am happy that they have a sound they like, and they can save money in the meantime, as this arm seems to be a true bargain on the used market.

I would have been interested in reading comparisons from Steve and from Christian between their modern arms and their new 3012Rs using the same cartridge. Steve's preference for the 3012R is based on using different cartridges, and many would contend that the ZYX is better than the Anna. I don't really know if Christian has compared his Graham arms to the 3012R using the same cartridge. I look forward to Tang one day directly comparing the SAT to the 3012R using the same cartridge. Madfloyd and I discussed arm boards last night and the possibility that he might consider a 3012R for his Kronos.

On the Kronos, the arm board gets adjusted on the turntable chassis, so switching arms is a bit more complicated. Ian could buy a second arm board for the 3012R and then mount it in the one location, switching arms and boards and lining one up with the marks and tightening. On my SME, the arm board is always precisely fixed, so were the 3012R able to fit on my Model 30/12, I would buy a second arm board and simply leave each arm on a separate arm board to drop in the location when I wanted to switch arms. In that sense, the SME solution is very nice and elegant, but extra arm boards cost more than the 3012R itself.

Is any of this unreasonable or close to "trolling"? I suppose that from my perspective, there is little new to learn about this subject because we are going around in circles, and now the skeptics or those asking questions are being called out as trolls. I suppose I should just move on and try to hear the arm in a familiar system.

I am sorry to see the turn that this once interesting thread has taken.

 

The one David found for me was NIB and with the original unused Van Den Hul copper phono cables. The box had never been opened.

I am not the vinyl guru that most of you here are but I do know what I like. I was also interested in the tedious setup of the SAT arm in Tang's system. Every time David did one measurement it threw another measurement off, making the arm difficult to set up. Such is not the case with this SME 3012

In fact I take full blame for the notoriety this arm has gotten since I visited David for 5 days several years ago and remember him carrying a handful of these arms into his sound room to set up while I was there. I heard that arm on every one of his tables with the same as well as different cartridges over those 5 days and became a fan of the sound and posted extensively about it as well as David's mantra about sound where he states "above all else it must sound natural". IMO this is what this arm does

Steve
I have so much respect for you
But i have the same turntable as you and the SAT tonearm and it is so simple to set up

 

You don't even have a turntable! Hilarious.

What does logic of argument have to with owning the gear?

 

Moderators, please delete this comment and image.

Why, it’s not in any way political...

Lol!

 

For my own edification, I revisited the OP. To get this thread back on track, perhaps we should focus on Gian's excellent question.



I find this comment very interesting. Why would the various set up parameters on the 3012R not be affected by the adjustment of one of them? I think a longer arm has something to do with this. Mr. Fremer writes that anything not quite right with the set up or alignment of a longer arm is amplified by the added length increasing tracking distortions. I have found through measurements that slight changes in arm height or VTA make very little difference to VTF with my arm. I always thought that adjusting one thing affects the other things, and that all arms are susceptible to this through basic physics. Depending on the arm's designs and the listener's perceptions, these effects may be more or less important.

Does anyone know why this seems different between the SAT and 3012R?

Steve, you notice very little change in VTF when adjusting arm height because the arm is very close to being a neutral balance design. However what will change with arm height is azimuth since the vertical bearing is not offset to be parallel to the headshell offset, as is found in the SAT, V-12 and many other arms. But I bet it would be difficult to hear the difference though it would be measurable in terms of channel crosstalk.

 

For my own edification, I revisited the OP. To get this thread back on track, perhaps we should focus on Gian's excellent question. (...)

IMHO in order to get the answers you have to look at the great systems and preferences of the people who own and appreciate this tonearm also to their attitude towards this hobby . Just comparing screws, wires and materials will not give you any valid answer in an hobby where there is little real correlation between most technical aspects and sound quality.

 

What does logic of argument have to with owning the gear?

I’ll answer that...remember if you don’t own a turntable, you cannot possibly have an opinion on anything to do with vinyl....even if you may have grown up with vinyl and turntable ownership in the past..
To that, what could you possibly know about good sound, even if you have been an a’phile for decades...and not owned a turntable.

Lastly, unless you are a Kool Aid drinker...you are a TROLL...

 

IMHO in order to get the answers you have to look at the great systems and preferences of the people who own and appreciate this tonearm also to their attitude towards this hobby . Just comparing screws, wires and materials will not give you any valid answer in an hobby where there is little real correlation between most technical aspects and sound quality.

I think both these approaches are equally unhelpful - you need to get an expert in SME 3102r set up to compare it with Arm X set up by someone who can set up X. and similar with Y. On different TTs...with different carts.

 

Just ordered my second 10 Bayonet mount cart display case. Soon I will have up to 20 different carts ready to plug and play onto the SME within minutes...try that with a fixed headshell design...

 

People can hear the same thing but still have different opinions. There is no absolute best gear but only best to our own ears. In this forum I never defend any gear I own. I just give my opinion on them in case people find them useful as data point. However they wish to form their opinion is up to them. They don’t have to think the same as me. The forum we have here is a good place to find users experiences on gears. I read many good comments about this SME arm. It triggered my curiosity so I bought to see how good it is. I now find it together with my carts sound as exceptional as claimed by quite a few users in this forum. Words of mouth from one to another...just like SAT and others. Sometime I follow words of mouth I win. Often I lost. My friend Gianluigi always tells me “But it might not sound good to your ears” at the end of his recommendation to any gear. Those are words of wisdom imo.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

People can hear the same thing but still have different opinions. There is no absolute best gear but only best to our own ears. In this forum I never defend any gear I own. I just give my opinion on them in case people find them useful as data point. However they wish to form their opinion is up to them. They don’t have to think the same as me. The forum we have here is a good place to find users experiences on gears. I read many good comments about this SME arm. It triggered my curiosity so I bought to see how good it is. I now find it together with my carts sound as exceptional as claimed by quite a few users in this forum. Words of mouth from one to another...just like SAT and others. Sometime I follow words of mouth I win. Often I lost. My friend Gianluigi always tells me “But it might not sound good to your ears” at the end of his recommendation to any gear. Those are words of wisdom imo.

Kind regards,
Tang

Tang
You say things so nicely

 

He just means you might not have his listening skills, Tang. Lol

 

Haven't we had comments from Dave and one or two others that linear tracker (LT) arms BY DEFINITION are hampered in comparison to pivoted arms?
So much so that Dave's advice was not to bother, they're not going to match up.
And yet Gian, Bill and (soon) Chau are v happily running integrated LT arms on their Vyger tts, and I run one myself.
I can't see any difference in the blanket criticism/dismissal of these arms, and those who base their scepticism of the 3012R for other reasons.

 

I’ll answer that...remember if you don’t own a turntable, you cannot possibly have an opinion on anything to do with vinyl....even if you may have grown up with vinyl and turntable ownership in the past..
To that, what could you possibly know about good sound, even if you have been an a’phile for decades...and not owned a turntable.

Lastly, unless you are a Kool Aid drinker...you are a TROLL...

Little known fact, Al DID own a turntable years ago; but he won't bring that up. So I am laughing at all of those who attack him with that silly argument. And wait, there is more... [but I can't speak for him, he'll chew my a__]

 

I think both these approaches are equally unhelpful - you need to get an expert in SME 3102r set up to compare it with Arm X set up by someone who can set up X. and similar with Y. On different TTs...with different carts.

It is helpful Ked. What you said about expert setup of a particular arm is also true and a helpful comment.

Tang