Sanders Sound Systems - electrostatic

[kach22i]

TAS - Model 10c's receive HP’s (Harry Pearson) GOLDEN EAR AWARD June 2010
Sanders Model 10c Hybrid Electrostatic Speaker System
http://www.sanderssoundsystems.com/reviews/146-model-10cs-receive-hps-golden-ear-award-2010

Has anyone here had a chance to hear Roger Sanders' new speakers?

 

[vinylphilemag]

Has anyone here had a chance to hear Roger Sanders' new speakers?

I heard them briefly at THE Show in January, and had a very quick chat with Roger. THey seemed pretty good, although of course the show conditions and unfamiliar music didn't help!

 

[MylesBAstor]

They didn't float my boat at CES but then one can never go by what they hear there. If a room sounds good, then there's a chance one can get the same sound at home. If the sound is bad, however, one can't assume it's the equipment and not the room or other issues -- like low voltage as what was happening or having immovable marble desks next to the speakers at the Venetian in January.

I'm also wondering what electronics HP was using with the Sanders.

One thing that has always bothered me about the Sanders is their imaging- there's nothing outside the outer edge of the speaker (Roger doesn't believe in that) and the soundfield always sounds V-shaped to me.

 

[Gregadd]

I recall hunting down the local dealer for the now defunct Innerosund that was sold by Roger Sanders. He was selling out of his home near an elementary school in far NW DC. By the time I found it Innersound was out of business. It appears the new speaker is quite similar if not the same. I have not heard the new speaker.

 

[MylesBAstor]

I recall hunting down the local dealer for the now defunct Innerosund that was sold by Roger Sanders. He was selling out of his home near an elementary school in far NW DC. By the time I found it Innersound was out of business. It appears the new speaker is quite similar if not the same. I have not heard the new speaker.

From what I understand, and if someone has more reliable info please feel free to contribute, Sanders was bought out several years ago and the new came out with a SOTA speaker retailing for 20 K (I think it was reviewed in SP). Then they went under and Roger got the company back and the new top of the line speaker two or three years ago was the same speaker, only for 13K.

 

[Gregadd]

Hopefully they will join up here and tell the story themselves. I think you have most of it right. I think they started a new company that is honoring the warranty of the old company.

 

[vinylphilemag]

Hopefully they will join up here and tell the story themselves. I think you have most of it right. I think they started a new company that is honoring the warranty of the old company.

I'll send an email to Angela (Roger's wife) and invite them to our cordial little corner of the webisphere.

 

[Angela]

Hi guys,
I just found your little corner!

I wanted to acknowledge this thread and the questions posed. I'll be back later today when I can devote the time to this that is needed, but wanted to let you know that I found it.

 

[Angela]

Answers as promised; with input from Roger ~

IMAGING:
The direction of the sound you hear from a speaker system is determined by the location of the surface from which the sound emanates. A typical, wide-dispersion speaker radiates its sound out into the room where it bounces off various walls and objects in the room.

You hear these reflections as well as the sound from the speaker. This is especially true of the very strong the reflection off the wall near the outside edges of the speakers. Therefore, when listening to wide dispersion speakers, it is common for the sound and image to appear to be wider than the spacing between the speakers because you are actually hearing the sound coming off the walls beside the speakers.

In a narrow dispersion speaker, there are no room reflections -- at least none that are significant enough to affect the speaker's image. So you hear the sound coming directly from the speakers. Therefore, the width of image will be defined by the space between the speakers. A truly holographic, 3-dimensional image will appear to float in space between the speakers.

If you want a wider image, simply place the speakers more widely apart. Note that narrow dispersion speakers can be placed as widely as you wish without developing that dreaded "hole in the middle" of the sound that you get from wide dispersion speakers.

Because reflected sounds ("room acoustics") degrade the sound coming from the speakers, any speaker that generates an image beyond the outside edges of the speakers will produce a less-than-perfect image. The speaker needs to confine the image to the space between the speakers for best performance. For a discussion of this problem in detail, please read Roger's white paper on the subject at Dispersion White Paper


DIFFERENCES IN SPEAKERS BETWEEN INNERSOUND AND SANDERS:
There are certain fundamental design parameters that have found to work best for all types of speakers. Therefore, all speaker types will have certain features that are similar.

For example, most magnetic speakers consist of a cone-shaped woofer, a dome-shaped tweeter, passive crossovers, and sealed box enclosures. Although most speakers are made in this format, they all have various subtle differences in this basic package of design features that make each manufacturer's offerings somewhat different in sound quality and performance.

Electrostatic hybrid speakers are no different in this regard. They are all vertical line sources, with an electrostatic panel on top of the woofer, so they all appear to be similar. But there are a great many detail differences within this basic layout. Like magnetic speakers, these differences can make a lot of difference in the sound and performance of speakers that appear superficially to be quite similar.

In the case of Innersound speakers compared to Sanders speakers, there are major improvements in the power handling and output of the woofer, the electrostatic panel is now utterly reliable and will play at ear-bleeding levels with multi-thousand watt amplifiers, the speaker is modular in construction (no more truck shipping), the styling is improved, real wood is used, digital electronic crossovers are available, the crossover point is lower, the crossover slopes are steeper, electronic time-alignment is used for the first time, all aspects of the system are user-adjustable, the speakers come with redesigned and more powerful amplifiers, certain internal resonances have been eliminated, woofer cabinet internal design has been improved, lifetime warranties are standard, factory support is vastly improved, and the price is lower. So it is fair to say that the Sanders speakers are quite a lot improved and different from Innersound speakers.


HISTORY:
Here is a very brief review of the key elements of the Innersound/Sanders history: Innersound, Inc. was founded in 1996 by Raj Varma who lived in the U.K. He hired Roger Sanders to design electrostatic speakers for him. Eventually, Mr. Varma expanded Roger's role to run Innersound in the U.S. while Mr. Varma manufactured computers in the U.K.

The key element here is that Roger was an employee of Innersound and never owned or controlled the company. So when Gary Leeds wanted to buy Innersound, the decision to sell was made by Mr. Varma -- Roger had no say in the matter.

When Gary Leeds bought Innersound, Inc. (February 2003), he dissolved the company and started a new one (Innersound LLC). He allowed Roger to become a minority share holder in the new company.

But as majority share holder, Mr. Leeds maintained total control of the company and once again, Roger could not manage the company in the manner he would have liked. This eventually led to Roger leaving Innersound, LLC in July of 2004.

After leaving Innersound, Roger started his own company (Sanders Sound Systems, LLC). Shortly thereafter, Innersound, LLC went out of business.

But before doing so, Mr. Leeds asked Roger to take care of Innersound's customers. Roger agreed to do so and Mr. Leeds transferred critical Innersound parts inventory to Roger so that he could service Innersound's products.

Note that although Roger does provide service for Innersound's products, Innersound's warranty is no longer valid since Innersound is out of business. In any case, enough time has passed that any warranty on Innersound's products has expired. Therefore, Innersound customers have to pay a modest price to have their equipment serviced by Sanders Sound Systems.

In summary, there have been three distinct companies. There was the original Innersound, Inc., which was owned by Raj Varma. Gary Leeds bought Innersound, Inc., dissolved it, and started a new company called Innersound, LLC. He eventually dissolved that as well.

Roger Sanders started Sanders Sound Systems, LLC. Although Roger worked for both of the Innersound companies, his company (Sanders Sound Systems) is not associated with either of the Innersound companies, both of whom no longer exist.

By having control if his own company, Roger can now operate it as he deems best. For example, he can now offer lifetime warranties and risk-free, 30-day, in-home trials. He also sells both factory direct and through selected dealers.

He makes all the engineering decisions based on performance, instead of on the approval of company owners. And he makes improvements in the design of his equipment when he wishes as technology advances.

Unlike the Innersound companies, Roger handles Sanders' company finances so that there is zero debt, there is cash in the bank, inventory in stock, and overhead costs are extremely low. As a result, Sanders Sound Systems can handle difficult economic times easily, successfully, and with greater security than his larger competitors.

While the Innersound companies could not have survived the current economic recession, sales and income for Sanders Sound Systems have been growing during this time. This is proof that the Sanders' business model is successful. The future of Sanders Sound Systems is secure.

 

[kach22i]

Thank you for the post Angela, it's a unfortunate to have to sort out the baggage of the past before looking to the future, but you have done a graceful job of it.

Now back to talking about speakers and music.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Thank you for the post Angela, it's a unfortunate to have to sort out the baggage of the past before looking to the future, but you have done a graceful job of it.

Now back to talking about speakers and music.

At least with everything that transpired, Roger was able to keep the use of his own name Others weren't so lucky.

 

[kach22i]

Why ceramic slots instead of little holes?

Is the slot really a slot longer in one dimension? If so does that invite some flexing of the mylar membrane? If flexing or rippling does this add something to the music?

 

[ggendel]

Angela,

Thanks for all the information. I can attest that the design is based upon sound principals (pun intended). I did a DIY electrostatic setup after reading Roger's superb book on the subject. It's been many years, but they still give me goosebumps during a listening session.

Pictures and plans can be found here:

http://www.genashor.com/gallery3/index.php/ElectroStatic-LoudSpeakers

If Roger had speakers to sell at the time, I would probably not have attempted this.

Gary

 

[kach22i]

Pictures and plans can be found here:

I love this picture.

Nice work Gary.

 

[Angela]

Gary, you are soooooo a true geek! I love that about you, in an geeky-way, of course. Nice article as well! (btw, Roger supplied Barry with all those parts you bought to make your speakers). thanks so much for sharing this. I just sent this over to Roger to read. I am sure that he will enjoy it.

do you still have them?

 

[ggendel]

Gary, you are soooooo a true geek! I love that about you, in an geeky-way, of course. Nice article as well! (btw, Roger supplied Barry with all those parts you bought to make your speakers). thanks so much for sharing this. I just sent this over to Roger to read. I am sure that he will enjoy it.

do you still have them?

I'll take that as a complement. I thought that Roger had to be the source behind the components and I really appreciated the quality of the workmanship. Yes, I still am using these and they are holding up very well. I don't remember if the article mentioned it, but the initial "smoke" test failed spectacularly. Soon after charging, one panel went into bug-zapper hell followed by flames. My guess was that there was a small metal spur trapped between the panes. The replacement panel has been happily quiet ever since.

The previous time I worked with high voltage was to repair an old RCA tube TV who's flyback transformer virtually disintegrated (also spectacularly in flames). After replacing the transformer, I turned it on, and... nothing. Then it popped into my head to wiggle the anode cable in case it wasn't seated properly. I heard a loud CRACK and had to pick myself up from the floor where I was thrown about 5 feet. Yes, I had forgotten to unplug the set. Amazingly, the TV was now working perfectly. Just thinking of working on high voltage again made me sweat.

I was originally going to make the article very technical but then I decided that a story chronicling the journey would make a better read. I'll try to add some Geek triumphs and failures here and there when appropriate. I'm glad I stumbled across this forum.

 

[Angela]

ah, the smoke test. . .

I liked the line "Dani stared ahead silently" - I am sure so many husbands have had that very moment. She is quite the sport and must know by now, that there is no holding you back.That is so cool that you are still using them.

 

[MylesBAstor]

I'll take that as a complement. I thought that Roger had to be the source behind the components and I really appreciated the quality of the workmanship. Yes, I still am using these and they are holding up very well. I don't remember if the article mentioned it, but the initial "smoke" test failed spectacularly. Soon after charging, one panel went into bug-zapper hell followed by flames. My guess was that there was a small metal spur trapped between the panes. The replacement panel has been happily quiet ever since.

The previous time I worked with high voltage was to repair an old RCA tube TV who's flyback transformer virtually disintegrated (also spectacularly in flames). After replacing the transformer, I turned it on, and... nothing. Then it popped into my head to wiggle the anode cable in case it wasn't seated properly. I heard a loud CRACK and had to pick myself up from the floor where I was thrown about 5 feet. Yes, I had forgotten to unplug the set. Amazingly, the TV was now working perfectly. Just thinking of working on high voltage again made me sweat.

I was originally going to make the article very technical but then I decided that a story chronicling the journey would make a better read. I'll try to add some Geek triumphs and failures here and there when appropriate. I'm glad I stumbled across this forum.

Well then you'll love this story

Knew this DIYer who decided to buy the 'stat panels from Sound Lab and make his own speaker with some God awful subs somewhere in the room. Well the Sound Labs developed a hole in the panel and this chap called Roger West about how to fix the hole. Roger told him to use some glue and seal the hole. Well this guy seals the hole, doesn't let it dry, turns on the panels--and instant flames coming out of the speaker from the glue/fumes Next panel please...

 

[ggendel]

Well then you'll love this story

Knew this DIYer who decided to buy the 'stat panels from Sound Lab and make his own speaker with some God awful subs somewhere in the room. Well the Sound Labs developed a hole in the panel and this chap called Roger West about how to fix the hole. Roger told him to use some glue and seal the hole. Well this guy seals the hole, doesn't let it dry, turns on the panels--and instant flames coming out of the speaker from the glue/fumes Next panel please...

Thanks. I feel less stupid now.

 

[Angela]

Why ceramic slots instead of little holes?

Is the slot really a slot longer in one dimension? If so does that invite some flexing of the mylar membrane? If flexing or rippling does this add something to the music?

I asked Roger about this and his first reaction was "good questions". He put some time into responding this morning and here is his reply.

There is no practical difference in the sonic performance of slots and holes. They both work equally well as stators in an electrostatic speaker. But there are some very important pros and cons in the production of parts made with either slots or holes.

There are thousands of holes in a typically-sized stator. When you can punch hundreds of holes at a time using a punch press, the process of producing all these holes is reasonably fast.

But if you have to drill holes using precision CNC machines, the process of drilling thousands of holes takes far too long to be practical. By comparison, machining slots is much faster.

A punch press cannot be used to punch long, thin, slots as the material is severely deformed by the punching process. So slots must be machined.

In summary, if you want to make a stator from a metal sheet, you will use a punch press and make holes in it. If you want to make a stator from other materials that have encapsulated conductors, you must machine it to obtain sufficient precision. You will therefore make slots.

The membrane in an electrostatic speaker is driven uniformly over its entire surface. It operates as a piston, even at high frequencies. This is one of the reasons why there is virtually no distortion from an ESL. As long as the holes or slots are small in comparison to the distance between the diaphragm and the stator, they will form a uniform force field around the diaphragm and there will be no flexing or rippling of the diaphragm's surface.