Power . How much do we need...

[FrantzM]

Hi

There has been an interesting discussion about the amount of power required for a given system. I am on the side of it's never enough. I would say that I remember that back in the days the very powerful amplifier were found by others and myself to be lacking ins , well .. finesse and the ultimate resolving power... I think this has changed, I have heard very powerful amplifier, that to me were as delicate when the music demanded it as any medium or even low power ones. Both tubes and SS and even Class-D ...

I know some here, Steve in particular have gotten good results with low power... While I appreciated these results, I would have gone for more power in those very same systems ... Granted there is a limit: a 95 dB speaker may not require a 1000 watts amp... But we have to keep in mind that our perceptions are quasi-logarithmic. from a 100 watts to a 1000 watts is a tenfold increase arithmetically .. but it is about a 10 db increase in SPL ... for a given speaker ... When w quietly agree that our usual media (CD, Hi-Def, Tape or even LP) can easily reproduce 40 dB ... You can do the math and see that more is usually better unless you're dealing with 100 dB plus speakers ...

What do you think people ..???

 

[Steve Williams]

I am very happy with my lowly 32 watts in my system. Prior to this I used Krell 750 Mcx and then ARC Reference 600 Mk lll before switching to SET amps. Initially I used the Lamm ML 2.1, an 18 wpc amp before settling on my present Lamm ML 3 Signature amps.

I have never been able to make these amps clip at very high SPL. Their midrange is secondary to no other amp I have ever owned or heard. Coupled with a pair of Gotham subs in which each has a 3800 wpc amp I am very happy.

I do understand your comments Frantz. If I were to change amps to SS, for the money I would consider the Bryston 28BSST

http://bryston.com/products/power_amps/28BSST-2.html

 

[caesar]

I am very happy with my lowly 32 watts in my system. Prior to this I used Krell 750 Mcx and then ARC Reference 600 Mk lll before switching to SET amps. Initially I used the Lamm ML 2.1, an 18 wpc amp before settling on my present Lamm ML 3 Signature amps.

I have never been able to make these amps clip at very high SPL. Their midrange is secondary to no other amp I have ever owned or heard. Coupled with a pair of Gotham subs in which each has a 3800 wpc amp I am very happy.

I do understand your comments Frantz. If I were to change amps to SS, for the money I would consider the Bryston 28BSST

http://bryston.com/products/power_amps/28BSST-2.html

Steve, I always thought that you made the most interesting choice with Lamm. Fremer also owns Wilsons, but not as good as yours. Occasionally reading Fremer's reviews of amps with his Wilsons, he always contrasts the power gap between the high powered Musical Fidelity amps he owns (1000 wpc?) and something with lower power, such as the "not-underpowered" VTL 450's. According to him, even on high efficiency speakers, the gap is evident.

Ultimately, I think it's quite personal. Some of us like the grip of the big SS on the speaker, which increases dynamics. Some of us like the magical midrange of lower powered tubes. Personally, I like both and have both tubes and SS - and swap them out depending on musical choice and mood. Granted, I have never heard your system, so you may have the best of both worlds.

Our of curiosity, have your tastes changed through the years?

 

[Steve Williams]

Not sure whether my tastes have changed as I did love the muscle of my Krell 750 Mcx's as well as the ARC Ref 600 Mk lll. Power abounded with in your gut bass slam.

Then I discovered SET. I have read comments here re people's love or lack thereof of SET amps. All I can say is that IMHO no SS amp at any power can reproduce mid range like an SET and having now the Lamm ML3 Signature, for me the buck stops here because as I have said before there is a certain magic with Lamm gear and Wilson speakers

Just my $0.02 and YMMV

 

[flez007]

I have had from 3 to 300 Watts per channel in class A, SET, AB, B- (Naim) and gainclones, and I adhere to the idea of synergy in the system, a great SET class A might not be the best match for an 88dB sensitIvity speaker design for example. Saying that, a more powerfull amp is more versatile as for different speaker options out there.

 

[Steve Williams]

a great SET class A might not be the best match for an 88dB sensitIvity speaker design for example.

We would all agree that SET amps are indeed limited by the efficiency of the speakers used

 

[MylesBAstor]

Depends on a slew of factors including room size, speakers, efficiency (and maybe more importantly impedance curve), type of music listened to, listening levels, etc. I'd go out on a limb and say that HP could never live with Steve's amps

 

[mep]

There is something very reassuring about having a powerful amp that sounds great, even if on a subconscious level. It’s nice to know that even if you turn the volume up to “11” that you won’t run out of amp and start clipping. I always say that you separate the men from the boys when you turn the volume up.

 

[MylesBAstor]

There is something very reassuring about having a powerful amp that sounds great, even if on a subconscious level. It’s nice to know that even if you turn the volume up to “11” that you won’t run out of amp and start clipping. I always say that you separate the men from the boys when you turn the volume up.

Are you now listening at 150 db with your new Krell amps?

 

[mep]

Are you now listening at 150 db with your new Krell amps?

Not quite. That would be Basspig territory.

 

[RogerD]

I have never had a low powered amp. A beautiful midrange can be had with power, my VAC 140's are very liquid and 3D. My solid state amps with 1200 watts a side maybe not as beguiling but my octal based preamp get's me close enough. When I really want to feel energy and my neighbor is not at home it's nice to crank it up and listen to the music soar. That'a a aspect that tips the scales for me.

 

[Steve Williams]

I have never had a low powered amp. A beautiful midrange can be had with power, my VAC 140's are very liquid and 3D. My solid state amps with 1200 watts a side maybe not as beguiling but my octal based preamp get's me close enough. When I really want to feel energy and my neighbor is not at home it's nice to crank it up and listen to the music soar. That'a a aspect that tips the scales for me.

I guess my question is "do you think you can't crank up the power with an SET". As I stated I have not been able to make my amp clip ( I could with the ML 2.1 but only at very high SPL)

 

[mauidan]

I guess my question is "do you think you can't crank up the power with an SET". As I stated I have not been able to make my amp clip ( I could with the ML 2.1 but only at very high SPL)

What's the distance from your listening position to the X2s?

 

[RogerD]

I guess my question is "do you think you can't crank up the power with an SET". As I stated I have not been able to make my amp clip ( I could with the ML 2.1 but only at very high SPL)

Hi Steve,

Since I have never owned or heard a SET type amp I do not know. Given the right speaker combination I would say that it should sound very good. with your experience with powerful amps and with your present setup, I think power is in the ear of the beholder.

 

[Steve Williams]

What's the distance from your listening position to the X2s?

~13 feet

 

[DaveyF]

Depends on a slew of factors including room size, speakers, efficiency (and maybe more importantly impedance curve), type of music listened to, listening levels, etc. I'd go out on a limb and say that HP could never live with Steve's amps

Agree with you Myles. However, in Steve's case, the amps in his JL's are doing the heavy lifting. Steve, if you turn off your subs, how do the Lamm's cope with the bottom end of the Wilson's at higher volumes? ( vs. your prior ss amps). Another thought, how would Steve's set up do in a larger room without the powered sub's? Just a thought

 

[Steve Williams]

Agree with you Myles. However, in Steve's case, the amps in his JL's are doing the heavy lifting. Steve, if you turn off your subs, how do the Lamm's cope with the bottom end of the Wilson's at higher volumes? ( vs. your prior ss amps). Another thought, how would Steve's set up do in a larger room without the powered sub's? Just a thought

well I used the amps in my room prior to getting the pair of Gotham subs. There is bass but obviously not the slam as I described earlier. It is a very articulate bottom end when used without the subs.

BTW, the way my preamp is wired I can instantly do an A/B test with the subs on or off. It took me almost 3 months to dial in my subs to where they are almost seamless

My room is reasonably sized 18w X 32 long x 9 (at window)-12 high (at inside wall)

 

[DaveyF]

well I used the amps in my room prior to getting the pair of Gotham subs. There is bass but obviously not the slam as I described earlier. It is a very articulate bottom end.

BTW, the way my preamp is wired I can instantly do an A/B test with the subs on or off. It took me almost 3 months to dial in my subs to where they are almost seamless

Steve, I'm sure you still get bass, but less slam...however, the question is whether your system has the same headroom and when the onset of distortion begins to occur. The Lamm's are working much harder when the JL's are out of the system.
BTW, I just put a REL sub into my system and I can relate to the fact that it is NOT that easy to get the sub to dial in...close is pretty easy...on the money....well, that's another story I hope it won't take me 3 months

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

SO far the laws of physics have not changed. I have heard Steve system and all that you have read about it true and then more... One of the best systems I have ever heard.. BEguiling and truly spectacular ... Yet... For my tastes in music, I would not have used 32 watts and I have my personal misgivings about SET, seductive but I prefer the sound of non-SET, I have liked some SET ( Jadis, VTL, Lamm) and feel not much about some ( Ongaku or CARY , etc). The Ongaku in particular left me cold and wondering what the fuss was all about, speakers were not well known however at the time ( 10 years ago or more) of audition... Back to the power issue..
From what I have read and measured .. Real music can get loud, very loud ... 100 dB are common even in classical music .. a drum does play loud and even a soprano going full tilt is loud ...a grand piano in real life can be loud, very loud, not measured it but I would venture 100 + dB ...

We must keep inmind that sensitivity measurements for speakers are often optimistic. A glance at measurements from the (kudos Guys) Soundstage network will show you discrepancies of often 6 dB often more ... FYI, 6 dB is the difference between a 100 watts and a 400 watts amplifier in term of SPL...
Also you will see several speakers touting 90-ish numbers when the real sensitivity is closer to 88 dB/w/m...

There is also the problem of speaker impedance... Some speakers are difficult loads and pose problem to amplifiers in term of drive-ability. Lower power amps tend to fair worse than higher power amps.. any loss of power is taken away from their already low output ...

Now if we go back to the physics of things. Let's assume a 95 dB sensitive speaker ... Let's assume generously that it is indeed 95 dB .. Now let.s assume that one listens at 4 meter from the speaker's center ... Reasonable ? ok... The SPL falls off by 6 dB with each doubling of the distance. IOW for 1 watt you have 89db at 2 meter and 83 dB at 4 meters ... We can work the math out .. We can take a car example... a SMAT car can certainly do 55 MPH but it is closer to its limit than a Mercedes E550 going t the same speed ... There is not much for the SMART car to accelerate beyond 55 MPH.. The same goes for low power amps a 5-watter will not be able to swing much more thanits 5 watts... It may clip gracefully but clip it will. One may even like the sound of a SET clipping but low power SET clip and earlier than more powerful amps ...

I have heard rather substantial amplifiers clip on some passages on relatively efficient speakers.. The CD/LP Bolero from Reference Recordings would clip may an amp in mostly difficult load if to be reproduce at realistic levels...
Thus my position ..Nowadays with the quality of amps available .. I will always go toward more power not flea-power. For the music I listen to (very eclectic but with a penchant for big Symphonic works) I need the power ..
The discussion about active will be next ... I am a in a discussion mood today ... and I am waiting for the Packers/Giants game. I will be home the whole day ...

Go Giants!!

 

[Steve Williams]

Frantz, I can't remember if you heard my ML 2.1's and/or the ML 3's when you were at my house

BTW as a 49's fan, go Giants. Big game today