Objectivism explained...

[Ron Party]

Ron, rbbert, I know it would be great to produce measurements & correlate everything we hear back to measurements but this is not where measurements are, at this point in time.

Putting aside that debate (and, certainly rbbert can speak for himself), his initial question was as follows:

I for one would be interested in seeing any measurable difference (whether someone thinks it's audible or not) in an amplifier's output using different power cords. Noise, FFT, square wave reproduction, whatever.

His question on its face made no reference to any attempt to make such a correlation; to the contrary he specifically excluded that qualification.

In the meantime we can trust our ears & if these things are not obvious differences & don't stand up to blind testing then we can discard them. Prematurely discarding the theory due to lack of a validated measurement would seem to be illogical & simplistic.

Agreed.

 

[jkeny]

Don't lose sight of why I posted this - JNeutron gave very strong theoretical evidence as to how power cords can make a difference. He is not talking about snake-oil cryoed, POCC $1,000 cables but simple & easy to implement suggestions on how to overcome these issues. Rather than repeat them here, they mainly concern the ground & the fact that a voltage can easily be induced in it thus causing all sorts of issues inside equipment.

The point of all this is that Ethan claimed it was not possible for power cords to make any difference. Jneutron explained how. Ethan still asked how even after this explanation as if it had never been given. After it was again explained, Ethan finally fell back the position he has now posted here "competently designed" - Here's his last comment "I have never been talking about "bad" or broken components. I'm talking about a perfectly competent stock AC power cord that costs less than $5. There is no way to "improve" on that since a good power cord already does what it's supposed to perfectly well - deliver AC power efficiently to a device. Unless the load is 30 amps and the wire is 26 gauge it will work fine."

Now how does he ignore or not understand all that JNeutron has clearly laid out about ground noise & voltages in power cords?

Go check the link I gave & evaluate this for yourself.

I'm saying he ducked as he has done on so many other occasions!

As I said earlier dumbing down complex matters to mantras & slogans is a dis-service to everybody.

 

[jkeny]

His question on its face made no reference to any attempt to make such a correlation; to the contrary he specifically excluded that qualification.

Ron, I'm not going to tediously dissect his posts but his later posts shows his intent - the readers will decide, I'm sure. If this is just about winning an argument, rather than any search for knowledge, learning then it's contrary to your stated intent & somewhat disingenuous.

BTW, was there something you wanted to say about my devices? You made reference to them & I wondered if you wanted to get something off your chest?

 

[fas42]

The point of all this is that Ethan claimed it was not possible for power cords to make any difference. Jneutron explained how. Ethan still asked how even after this explanation as if it had never been given. After it was again explained, Ethan finally fell back the position he has now posted here "competently designed" - Here's his last comment "I have never been talking about "bad" or broken components. I'm talking about a perfectly competent stock AC power cord that costs less than $5. There is no way to "improve" on that since a good power cord already does what it's supposed to perfectly well - deliver AC power efficiently to a device. Unless the load is 30 amps and the wire is 26 gauge it will work fine."

Against my better judgement I will throw in a bit: Ethan is of course right that the $5 power cord will do the job of delivering the power, in the world of of it being a power cord. But every electronic part is also other things, like a filter, like an aerial. Because, they are made of real materials, they are not perfect electrical components, that is, straight lines on a schematic, as the power in is depicted in an electronics textbook.

Ethan will say the impact of these aspects will be inaudible; the subjectivists will say otherwise, and in that area I'm on the side of the latter ...

Frank

 

[jkeny]

Against my better judgement I will throw in a bit: Ethan is of course right that the $5 power cord will do the job of delivering the power, in the world of of it being a power cord. But every electronic part is also other things, like a filter, like an aerial. Because, they are made of real materials, they are not perfect electrical components, that is, straight lines on a schematic, as the power in is depicted in an electronics textbook.

Ethan will say the impact of these aspects will be inaudible; the subjectivists will say otherwise, and in that area I'm on the side of the latter ...

Frank

Yes, Frank, the real world is a dirty place, components can have more effects than their stated function & getting the best from our audio systems requires that we deal with this dirt & non-ideal components. This is the complexity that Ethan seems to miss or chooses to ignore.

If that was all Ethan states then his message would be understandable & consistent but after JNeutron giving a lucid explanation Ethan immediately states "How can one 3-wire cord have less hum than another? Wait, don't answer that. Here's the real issue:" & proceeds to rant about snake-oil salesmen, magic, etc. So he ducks the explanation & rants instead!

 

[Ron Party]

Ron, I'm not going to tediously dissect his posts but his later posts shows his intent - the readers will decide, I'm sure. If this is just about winning an argument, rather than any search for knowledge, learning then it's contrary to your stated intent & somewhat disingenuous.

Tediously dissect his posts? Really? I quoted his request above. It is for all to see. 2 sentences. That is tedious? At the same time you want readers to visit another website and read pages and pages of another thread (which, BTW, I followed at the time it was happening - I've been following John's posts for years and even invited him to join us here at WBF which he then did). So please don't call me disingenuous.

BTW, was there something you wanted to say about my devices? You made reference to them & I wondered if you wanted to get something off your chest?

No, I have no experience with them. Indeed, to the contrary, the last thing I remember posting in that thread was that I hoped they worked inasmuch as I am in favor of anything that raises the bar. My interest in that thread is the same as it is here, to-wit: promoting an exchange of ideas so that I and, hopefully, others, can learn. Anecdotal evidence need not apply, however.

 

[jkeny]

Tediously dissect his posts? Really? I quoted his request above. It is for all to see. 2 sentences. That is tedious?

Good god, I knew this would become a point scoring exercise rather than any attempt at discussing interesting topics. This is exactly why I'm suggesting your statement early on about how privileged, etc, etc appear now to be disingenuous. You are more concerned with point scoring than discussing anything of interest!

At the same time you want readers to visit another website and read pages and pages of another thread (which, BTW, I followed at the time it was happening

Great so you know what valuable information is contained in John's posts in that thread? The post I linked to is all that's required to be read to get the point I made - if people want to read the full thread that's a choice I would support

I've been following John's posts for years and even invited him to join us here at WBF which he then did). So please don't call me disingenuous.

Great on the Jneutron front! I've dealt with the disingenuous bit above

No, I have no experience with them. Indeed, to the contrary, the last thing I remember posting in that thread was that I hoped they worked inasmuch as I am in favor of anything that raises the bar.

Sorry, my mistake, I mixed you up with P. Ponk's quote "The difference between a tweaked digital interface with a battery power pack and the original, unmodified model? That's worth blind testing."

My interest in that thread is the same as it is here, to-wit: promoting an exchange of ideas so that I and, hopefully, others, can learn. Anecdotal evidence need not apply, however.

Ah so do you only want measurements or is discussion of theory ok? blind testing results ok? sighted listening tests ok? reference to papers OK?

 

[rbbert]

Look, measuring the cord itself is only a small part of the issue here. No audio signals pass through the power cords (or power conditioners). Yes, I like the sound of my system with the power conditioner and cords I've ended up with, but really, what's so hard to understand about wanting someone to run some comprehensive measurements on an amp with two different power cords. I for one expect there might be some differences in some measurements, and really, all it takes is one type of measurement showing a consistent difference to demonstrate potential audio effects of power cords and/or conditioners. Blind testing would be wonderful but likely impractical, and that's not really my point here; I'm not talking about specific audio differences but rather measurable electronic differences, input of amp to output of amp. As I've said, if there were ANY, it would pretty much negate the nay-sayers who claim no possible effects from properly functioning power cords/conditioners.

 

[Ron Party]

Point scoring exercise, now? Come on. First you deflect, now it's a point scoring exercise. I hoped for more.

 

[fas42]

I for one expect there might be some differences in some measurements, and really, all it takes is one type of measurement showing a consistent difference to demonstrate potential audio effects of power cords and/or conditioners. Blind testing would be wonderful but likely impractical, and that's not really my point here; I'm not talking about specific audio differences but rather measurable electronic differences, input of amp to output of amp. As I've said, if there were ANY, it would pretty much negate the nay-sayers who claim no possible effects from properly functioning power cords/conditioners.

The normal measuring techniques are not going to pick it. So someone has to devise an appropriate test signal which will "exercise" the equipment in a fashion to expose the weaknesses, which will be impacted by the choice of power cords. A good one will be a mix of a high level bass frequency, and 2 low level midrange to treble frequencies separated to suit an intermodulation distortion measurement. The bass note will severely stress the power supply, causing the IMD to do all sorts of interesting things ...

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I had a really naive moment there. I find NWAV Guy interesting. I think he is representative of the "objective" audio POV in a very good way. I think his explanation of transparency makes it clear that, finally, if you don't believe in measurements, transparency is a myth, if you do, it's obvious, fundamental; the old wire with gain. Therefore it is not worth arguing anymore. I thought the ODAC was a good read and that even those of a more subjective POV might be able to appreciate how much this guy had accomplished at home, with so little. I thought we might all be able to appreciate the passion that had gone into it, look at the results, and even if we didn't believe in transparency, salute the effort.

I was stupid. It almost immediately turned into a cat fight and has now completely devolved into the most empty and pointless of audiophile discussions: the efficacy of premium power cables.

Ron, Steve, somebody close this train wreck please.

By the way, I'm recording tomorrow. We're the lab rats for two projects (audio and video production), so I don't expect excellence, but could be pleasantly surprised, as we're basically setting up in a space (haven't seen it yet) with a handful of dynamic performance mics and recording live. Better mics would be good, but the methodology is a good way to go IMO.

Tim