New forum created for subjectivist members

[treitz3]

In response to post #245. Yes, no action was necessary. Just like no action was necessary when you reported the other 200-300 posts that you did within a 2-3 week period. To put things into perspective, I don't think we have ever had that many reported posts over the span of a year.

This is also a great example of how the management team "cursed" at Amir.

Tom

 

[fas42]

Can someone be both an objectivist and a subjectivist or is this a paradox?

Most assuredly. I would strongly place myself across that divide, a foot in both camps. I hear differences, I investigate using the simplest, lowest cost techniques available to me, and steadily build a repertoire of methods for dealing with the main issue - getting good sound. Do I measure it in the normal ways some people think important? Never, because it has never been necessary - my ears have always told me when I'm on the right track.

The biggest hurdle is deriving numbers, and understanding what's really going on in many cases - there is this major sink hole in the middle of audio, people don't want to investigate it properly, they would just like someone to put a nice piece of smooth tarmac over that abyss, to make it go away - which will never solve anything.

And that's a large part of what's at the bottom of this conflict ...

 

[opus112]

Can someone be both an objectivist and a subjectivist or is this a paradox?

Depends on the definition of 'objectivist'. If it means a person who is impartial then yes certainly - a confirmed subjectivist would be the most impartial.

But if 'objectivist' means 'believes only the numbers, not anyone's reported experience including their own' then no, no common ground whatsoever.

 

[jadis]

Jimuku Post 154: You are a unhappy person.
Jimjuku 164: I findit it oddly hypocritical..
Jimjuku 164 :same sentence ..oddly refreshing to admits ones trolling behavior
If you can't remeber waht you said in the futrue.Do what I did. Go to to your profile and click on Find latest posts, It's a target rich envioronment.

Tom is right, only in the Wild Wild West do you see someone shooting people to the ground and say, hey, I still didn't see any shooting.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Can someone be both an objectivist and a subjectivist or is this a paradox?

This is the disturbing thing... that we don't seem to understand that we use both kinds of assessment constantly and the notion of anyone who uses subjective experience as part of their process is being in any way purely a subjectivist is just plain wrong. Just as crazy as the idea that anyone who ever looks at a frequency response graph is by default an objectivist.

It would be helpful to do a complete survey of the membership to get a genuine and real understanding of the position as this is the fundamental issue of division here that keeps coming back to bite us.

The closest thing to some sort of a survey that gave us that specific information was a while back when the survey was about which types of assessment that our people here use in buying and selecting gear.

From memory the persons who used only measurement in the their decision making... our only pure objectivists... counted for less than 5 per cent of those who responded.

That not one person responded to the survey saying they used only subjective evaluation in their gear assessment... not one person identified themselves as being a pure subjectivist.

So we are in truth mostly a bit of both and actually in the middle... the overwhelming majority of us... some 95 per cent responding identifying as using some mix of subjective and also some objective assessment with this. Not some perfect black and white divide.

Are there actually many amongst us at all who would say that measurements had zero relationship with both the quality of the sound or our perception of the music listening experience?

Being either purely objective or purely subjective is such an extreme position and would probably be well typified by the kind of numbers in the earlier survey. It would be invaluable for us to confirm any of this through another even more rigourous and comprehensive survey surely.

Absolutely it would be an important step for us to measure that across the board and actually get some real numbers and a reflection on the actual perspectives on the whole membership before it is ever used again as an excuse for another argument.

 

[treitz3]

What a wonderful post Sound of Tao.

Tom

 

[amirm]

Wow, I really let loose with the curse words, didn't I?

A bully never thinks his words are hurtful. So I am not surprised you are blind to it. If you don't like that example, there are plenty of other threads that show total disrespect and a gang mentality among you three that would be unbelievable if I had not witnessed it myself. See below.

Between defending the right to diverse posting and trying to demonstrate acceptance of that diversity, I really lost it there...

Let's see if you can find your way back this time with Tom reporting a post:

Posted by: amirm
treitz3 has reported a post.
Reason:

This is not right. It's okay to break the TOS because "you invited it"?
That's not black and white. That's inviting the grey.
And the issues and Domino effect it comes with. Not a smart move in my opinion. Not a smart move at all.

Post: Interesting website, 'No audiophile '

Posted by: amirm
Original Content:

I worry if you meet Vladimir lamm though and tell him his products are flawed and over priced due to the implementation of single ended connections, that you feel is a joke considering the prices for lamm products We will be a amir short and need a replacement. This guy fits the bill.

I have the pleasure of meeting Vladimir at CES. To me he was a total gentleman. Of course we did not discuss audio and I don't intend to.

Sorry for blatant disregard for tos I have showed in this post, directly addressing the poster

It is OK because I invited it. When the King of Audio speaks, you have permission to follow.

So imagine if you are a site co-founder and your moderator formally reports you above. No PM to share a concern. No friendly question about it. But strong words of disapproval.

Lee chimes in:

For someone who's trying to show us how we should run the forum, this is in poor taste.
Lee

Now it is Steve's turn to kick the body:

Agreed. But heck he is the King of Audio and we are mere plebeians . Merely more delusions of grandeur on his part

Bear in mind he is not part of this admin team and feels he is immune to the TOS

"Delusions of grandeur"" is declared. Apparently telling a joke is against some term in the TOS.

My dear moderator now chimes in:

To me, this is a gross violation of the ethics we must maintain as forum leaders.

Tom

Ah, "gross violation of ethics." My god. Calling Bob being on acid trip is folks having fun. Me calling myself King of Audio is an ethics violation now.

Not content with the previous beating, Steve chimes in again:

Member in question plays by his own rules

Since I wrote the TOS that is actually true . TOS though seems to be the last of the worries when folks speak to me in admin forum.

Tom caps it off:

Member in question needs to stop. This was not considered a joke.

As forum leaders, we must hold ourselves to a higher standard. In this case, a much higher standard if we are to retain the heavy hitters, industry insiders, manufacturers and technical experts we currently still have or wish to recruit.

Tom

Ah yes, those standards. But since we are in a dark alley with no one seeing us, let's take turn and see how nasty we can be.

What did I post? Not a thing.

Now imagine reading this kind of thing on daily basis. I want to see someone defending such conduct. Tell me if you were running a forum this is how you would interact with someone on the same management team. Tell me that these feelings are sufficiently quashed when they are moderating the membership. That they have such high will power that despite lack of total self control, they can come to the forum and act fairness and with ultimate wisdom. They obviously cannot and have not.

Where is the lecture on the interpretation of Constitution now?

How can you Lee as a human being do this day and day out? Forget the forum. Tell me, tell me please, what made this OK in your mind? Where does this mean spirit in you come from to act this way?

 

[amirm]

Are there actually many amongst us at all who would say that measurements had zero relationship with both the quality of the sound or our perception of the music listening experience?

Yes. I have people saying they are quitting the forum unless all references to graphs, research papers, etc. is removed from the forum. Here is a recent example that is fresh in my mind:

Perhaps, King of Audio (I can't believe you call yourself that btw - even in jest), you would do well not to air your dirty laundry in public.

How about we have two forums? - one for the ones whose hobby is looking at graphs and making predications based on how smart they think they are, and arguing with each other to prove same, and another for the rest of us whose hobby is listening to actual music and sharing our experiences with that. I promise not to post in yours if you promise not to post in mine....

God imagine that - a forum free of graphs? Hellehuyah.

What should we tell these people?

 

[treitz3]

Once again, you show the forum members a snippet of the information so that you seem like you are the victim here. There is one single common denominator with all of the issues made public. Even the guests are figuring this out Amir. The more you present your argument, the more.....

Ah, nevermind. You are bringing me down to your level again by arguing. I have made my point in the first sentence of the post.

Did you ever read and/or consider the proposal?

Tom

 

[the sound of Tao]

What a wonderful post Sound of Tao.

Tom

Thanks Tom, was thinking we could rename the objective only and subjective only forums as the living in complete denial of the validity of all measurements forum and the other as the living in complete denial of the value of the human experience forum but not sure I'd happily live long in either. Good luck with all your ventures.

 

[treitz3]

Regarding post #269. BTW, I didn't report that because of the silly little King comment. I could care less about that. I reported it because we have a TOS that members must follow. Our jobs as moderators is to make sure members adhere to these rules.

Your comment that it was okay for him to break the rules because you invited it is where the ethics came into play. Not because of any other reason. It is Akin to the law stating that you can not deal drugs. Then the Sherriff in town comes by and offers a pardon to someone because he invited it.

I have an issue with that and as a man of principles, you should have a problem with that as well.

Tom

 

[Al M.]

Yes. I have people saying they are quitting the forum unless all references to graphs, research papers, etc. is removed from the forum. Here is a recent example that is fresh in my mind:



What should we tell these people?

That's silly if people want that. I love graphs and I have learned a lot from them, including your graphs, Amir. And I am what most would call a subjectivist...but I am a science-minded one.

 

[RBFC]

Here is the content of an email I received from an audiophile who reads the forum regularly, but hasn't joined yet. Note that permission to share this message is included:

Hello Lee
Normally when I feel I want to add anything to a music forum I join - but in this instance I have decided to email you, using the link in your forum signature.

I am one of those people that your ‘Amir' refers to as regular readers of the WB forum but not a member. I sometimes considered joining but there now seems to be so much public hostility and disagreement that I have no intention of getting involved. I am acquainted with several other audiophiles who also used to look in from time to time and the general consensus is that the threads 'Entreq Tellus Grounding, in England’ & 'Are the owners above the TOS' are now compulsive viewing so we are hooked - for all the wrong reasons and absolutely nothing to do with audio! Fascinating and somewhat sobering to see a forum tearing itself apart so publicly….

Whether it is relevant or not, I must say that looking in as an outsider, one of your site owners appears to be a quite divisive character, with behaviour that could be described as ‘manipulatively confrontational’ at best. I may be unfair in this view but surely this is not the way any owner/CEO/controlling ‘shareholder' should behave - posting private messages from others with personal attacks on a fellow site owner Quite incredible ! - I would want to have absolutely nothing to do with someone like that. The more he posts, the more disrespect we outsiders have for him and 'his forum’.

Yours
******

Please do not share my email address, this is just a personal observation. You may share the content of the mail itself if it will assist in the controllers of your forum coming to their senses ! Thanks

I removed his name to insure privacy.

I fully expect to be "bullied" over this, and now that I have been accused of behavior that would be unacceptable in my daily life, you better believe that I'm going to push back. Being threatened and manipulated by someone who purports to be fair and even-tempered doesn't sit well with me. It's obvious to see that the great "forum traffic" is not merely due to the typical content here.

This will be my final post on this topic. I fully expect more groundless accusations to be leveled against me, and I'm fine with that. I'm now going to return to posting some stuff about music, and hope that the members will enjoy that much more than the food fight this has become.

Regards,

Lee

 

[Al M.]

What a wonderful post Sound of Tao.

Tom

+ 1

 

[the sound of Tao]

Yes. I have people saying they are quitting the forum unless all references to graphs, research papers, etc. is removed from the forum. Here is a recent example that is fresh in my mind:



What should we tell these people?

Amir, this is also maybe just an example of just popping a valve over what some feel is a recent overload of graphs bombarding some clearly not purely objective based threads... once again just relates to the human experience and doubt that Andrew would be in complete denial of the value of measurement but might reflect a frustration with a perceived lack of balance.

I do honestly stand behind the notion of complete or whole or holistic fairness to the truth so any valuable element in the cycle of the assessment process has it's potential and it's limits. It's why we need to do it all to be complete.

 

[amirm]

Once again, you show the forum members a snippet of the information so that you seem like you are the victim here.

No snippet. It was the entire thread. One of many examples.

There is one single common denominator with all of the issues made public. Even the guests are figuring this out Amir. The more you present your argument, the more.....

Hmmm. After the three of you gave me a formal infraction, I contacted you all and ask if you are OK for the membership to see said infraction. This is what Steve said:

My reply

Throw all the slurs you want Amir but I assure you that all of us are prepared in no uncertain terms to take this public and yes it won't be pretty but I assure you that if you violate the TOS again you will rise in the ladder and we will decide as to making it public. Also should you sanction Tom you will be the laughing stock of WBF as they again see you trying to,moderate your own threads which you refuse to see as being wrong. We don't want to take it public Amir but rest assured if you make that threat you better come with guns loaded as it will be you to lob the first salvo

This has nothing to do with me Amir. People complain about you incessantly, not us. If you take it public rest assured that you will have lobbed the first salvo but we will respond. If you violate the TOS once again and talk to members as you do Peter, DaveC, Bonzo etc etc or all the other preposterous allegations by you that they are in my pocket this WILL go online and it will be the end of the forum as we know it. You will reap what you sow.. Don't ever threaten me again

You talk about fiduciary responsibility. You're absolutely correct and thats why this admin team will do everything to bring WBF back to where it was 8 months ago when you decided you were going to be part of the admin team and destroyed it. You insist on quantity over quality. That's all you're interested in

Pretty clear he was in favor of this information being public. Were you not on board as he represented you above?

 

[amirm]

Amir, this is also maybe just an example of just popping a valve over what some feel is a recent overload of graphs bombarding some clearly not purely objective based threads... once again just relates to the human experience and doubt that Andrew would be in complete denial of the value of measurement but might reflect a frustration with a perceived lack of balance.

I do honestly stand behind the notion of complete or whole or holistic fairness to the truth so any valuable element in the cycle of the assessment process has it's potential and it's limits. It's why we need to do it all to be complete.

I am with you 100%. I am just saying that behind the scenes from Steve on down, the request I get is for a science free, measurement free, research free, objective free forum. Nothing even an inch past that is acceptable to these vocal individuals.

If this atmosphere of intolerance from these few people went away, life would be back to normal.

 

[Steve Williams]

Amir

You just don't get it. This again has nothing to do with your fantasy of objectivists vs objectivist. You continue to try and change the subject at hand which is you.
You are the master of obfuscation and deflection. You shift blame because you can do no wrong.

 

[marty]

WTF is going on here?? I am slack-jawed after reading this thread. Who would have possibly thought that anything could surpass the mud-slinging and nasty denigration of the Republican debate 2 nights ago? And that was like watching a food fight in college. Well congratulations, you've succeeded. The sad truth is that the forum has tragically declined over the past year. I don't know the cause(s) and I sure don't have any obvious remedies, but I'm just saddened that a place I used to go for mindfulness and learning has essentially become not much more than a vapid name-calling festival. Truly sad.
Marty

 

[NorthStar]

WTF is going on here?? I am slack-jawed after reading this thread. Who would have possibly thought that anything could surpass the mud-slinging and nasty denigration of the Republican debate 2 nights ago? And that was like watching a food fight in college. Well congratulations, you've succeeded. The sad truth is that the forum has tragically declined over the past year. I don't know the cause(s) and I sure don't have any obvious remedies, but I'm just saddened that a place I used to go for mindfulness and learning has essentially become not much more than a vapid name-calling festival. Truly sad.
Marty

Marty, can you give us good recommendation on what to do now? I feel like a total idiot, a reject. Is this a place only for a certain type of people, because it sure feels like it.

Whoever is friend with this guy or that guy is not the friend of that one or that one??? What worst can it be?
Should they ban all the people they don't like, and who should do the banning?
Who is the ultimate ruler with his own mind rules? Is it Steve, Tom, Lee or Amir?
Who should we trust to be impartial? Who is the true leader? Who has a clean mind of all people's respect?

Is WBF a place only for the illuminatis? ...For the cult people? ...For the ultra high end elite class? Is it for a special sect, spectrum of the high society exclusively?

I am extremely confused; please help me out here and tell me the truth in your own words, and honestly what should we do?
Is there a special card we need to register here @ WBF, like a card that says we have a degree in mathematics, physics, science, sociology, education, grammary, law, musicology, psychology, occultism, and all the other 100 required degrees? Or just that we need to fit the standards of one or two people according to the rules of judgement pure and simple?

One side of me says get out of here forever and to never return and never associate with certain people, and there's another side that says wait till the war is over and make your choice to live or die with all your friends and all who hate you. It is just a little bit confusing...not really.

Is it normal human behavior to not accept who we are or should we choose more wisely who our true friends are?
Is there a wide division, a large amount of sickness going on, and since the beginning of Adam & Eve?

Tell me Marty? Is this worst than our politicians playing mind games with people?

Last, if we don't want to put the blame on no one but to simply accept the human deficiency of our race, should we simply go with the flow and live with the hatred like in a superficial ignorant way? Should we accept to be outcasts and society rejects by the high establishment of the court of law, and which law, the law of all men equal or the law of just a group of men @ the top?

Should we try to love what is terribly wrong on what we have been reading from the underground or should we just simply ignore everything just like a nightmare that never happened?

Tell me, what would you do if you were put in that position? Just tell me honestly so that there is no doubt in the mind of all good people.

I have so many conflicts and struggles in my mind that I'm just about to be losing the very little left I got in my brain. And that little left in me is the most vulnerable and disrespected I feel deeply deep deep down into the crevasses of my human soul and existence here on planet Earth.

Marty, where is heaven?