my morning with Starker.......

bonzo75

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maybe the highly respected Speaker's Corner set is closer to the original presentation? cannot say, not heard it myself.
Will be a first if it is
 
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Kingrex

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differences in the releases are much more distinctive. i would say most would easily hear them. not all good and bad, just presentation differences where likely you would have a clear preference.

in my particular system all the vinyl gear pieces are relatively high level. but there are degrees of rightness and certainly areas of attributes that stand out. the pressing presentation differences are more profound.

maybe part of that is living with my different arms/carts i am already clued into their character. likely someone fresh in my room listening might not be as quick to hear these things. it's my process to go from arm to arm to arm during my sessions, as that has added value to my vinyl listening.

maybe the highly respected Speaker's Corner set is closer to the original presentation? cannot say, not heard it myself.
So your ok back to back playing an album. You don't believe they need to settle.

And do you ever get buched up playing your favorite album worried you will wear it out.
 
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bonzo75

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all i said was that the Speaker's Corner could be 'closer', with maybe a more similar intimate presentation.

all the speakers corner compared were more compressed, lacked some tone, air, space and dynamic range to originals. The realism just drops on side by side compares. That said for the price some were very good, like Oistrakh Scottish Fantasia or new world compared to the originals where ED1 are 1k plus
 

Mike Lavigne

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So your ok back to back playing an album. You don't believe they need to settle.
my process is to play one side with one arm/cart then the other side with another different one. 95% of the time this is what i do.
And do you ever get buched up playing your favorite album worried you will wear it out.
never crosses my mind.

my experience is that with my personal approach with record handling and care, and the set up of my tt's, that i have zero apparent wear from playing. i don't ever even think about it as an issue. i have never opened a 'back-up' safety copy yet. and i have many of them.

and while i do have some favorites, i truly play the field of my collection in my daily listening.. trying to play what i have not played for a long time. and have multiple copies of some.

maybe my most played records have a touch more lead in groove noise than 30 years ago, but that's about it. an occasional click or pop, yes.

you have been here plenty of times, and have heard my pressings. i typically do play some of my long term war horses during those sessions. you tell me, do they sound tired?

there are times when i play a passage over and over, even the same one over and over many times. especially during cartridge set up. or testing. i do not really get any sense of wear. yesterday i was doing some particular sessions and played a couple passages likely 10 times. seemed fine. could someone measure some changes over time? maybe, but musically i don't worry about this.

i do respect that someone who is really sensitive to noise on vinyl could see this as a problem. i don't. there a few original pressings i have where they are noisy, but also musically they are fantastic. and in those cases i can see that the previous owner of these pressings maybe were not as careful.
 
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Kingrex

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I wonder where the noise comes from. Why the pops and clicks can not be cleanes out. I have also heard groove wear. I just bought an album that sound like I stepped in barn yard waste. Bad groove damage. I have heard people like Joe P say the grooves wear just from the needle pass. I have wondered about the truth. Someone once said its 2000 psi at the needle/groove contact. Sounds like bull to me.
I could see a worn needle with a sharp edge file a record groove out in 1 pass. But a fresh needle?
 

Mike Lavigne

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I wonder where the noise comes from. Why the pops and clicks can not be cleanes out. I have also heard groove wear. I just bought an album that sound like I stepped in barn yard waste. Bad groove damage. I have heard people like Joe P say the grooves wear just from the needle pass. I have wondered about the truth. Someone once said its 2000 psi at the needle/groove contact. Sounds like bull to me.
I could see a worn needle with a sharp edge file a record groove out in 1 pass. But a fresh needle?
groove wear comes from friction heat. heat comes from (1) dust/dirt build up in the grooves, (2) poor stylus condition, (3) poor alignment, or (4) improper VTF (too light or too heavy).

and there are degrees of clean storing and playing environments.....HVAC.....and even locations with cleaner/dirtier air.

you can easily deal with all of those to a high degree. the wear effect from playing is then effectively zero. not technically zero of course. but lifetime playing zero.

the biggest culprit of groove wear with old records is poor stylus condition. one play and forget it. when you get a 40-65 year old pressing it's been out in the world.

clicks and pops can be from many sources, even the pressing. don't really have any great insights into that part. the most obvious is the stylus hitting dirt and taking a divot in the groove wall. it's inevitable that some of that happens. i do think my anti static devices pay back their investment long term in quieter grooves. no static, no dust held in the grooves.
 

Lee

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Just a heads up for those looking at the new Starker box back in print from Analogue Productions...

Acoustic Sounds is taking care of my return but my Starker box set from AP had severe noise issues. Adrian at AS said they had several returns on this box so there does appear to be a quality issue at RTI. Fortunately AS service is great and they send out a Fedex mailing label and you just drop off the defective box.
 
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adrianywu

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first Monday in October, a light rain falling, and i'm retired. had a busy Football weekend, a little baseball and the Ryder Cup too. so not much listening.

i pulled out my original pressing Bach Starker "Suites For Unaccompanied Cello"...Complete Box Set (Mercury SR3-9016). i do have the fine AP 45rpm box set, which is good.....this is 'gooder'. more sonorous. sweeter. more direct. more intimate. more shimmer and air on the strings. i'm more captured. maybe not quite as low noise, as energetic or big space sounding as the 45's. but......perfect rainy day morning music. wet sounding.:rolleyes:

Played one side each on 5 arm/cart combos. this music really sets the mood. and it also digs into what each arm/cart is doing. and if it's your cup of tea, and you are in the mood, gets deep into your soul. it is, i was, it did.

the CS Port linear tracker/Etsuro Gold the most subtle and least reproduced, T1/Tosca/DaVa the most on fire, the T1/FCL/Etsuro Gold the most luscious, the NVS/Tosca/At-MC2022 the most inciteful. the NVS/Telos/Koetsu Azule the most boisterous. obviously i'm over-simplifying and they all are beautiful and touch all the bases. but this music really does make it easier to understand what is going on. it's both right and left brain engaged. this music is life affirming.
My curiosity was piqued by your post, and so over the weekend (with the typhoon here is Hong Kong), I pulled out my copy of the Starker cello suites. Sides 1 and 6 are RFR-1, the other sides are RFR-2. There are some scuff marks on three of the sides, but thankfully none of them made any noise. I gave them a clean in my Degritter first, as I have not listened to them in years. I actually sat through the whole set, and transferred it to DSD128 at the same time. I then put on the Speakers Corner side 1 and listened to it. The Speakers Corner is remarkably quiet, but the original is surprisingly quiet for Mercury LPs, and the noise is not at all annoying. My findings are very similar to yours. The SC seems to have more prominent bass frequencies, but the original is not lacking in bass, and in fact the whole frequency range seems better integrated. The SC was transferred at a higher level, around 3 - 4 dB. The original seems to have more ambience, and the sound is more beautiful, for lack of a better description. The SC sounds slightly more aggressive by comparison. I think this is the characteristics of the cutting amplifiers, the original being tube. The original box has deteriorated quite badly, and so I switched the boxes, since I think I will be listening more to the original, which I find more enjoyable despite the higher noise level.
 

adrianywu

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Hi Mike, the original Starker Bach Suites is one of the super catches of the entire Mercury Living Presence catalogue. I've never seen it less than in at least the lower stratospheric level of prices either. I have the Speakers Corner box and before that had a copy of the Mercury Golden Import version which was quite good - and for a Golden Import was quite pricey, in the low three figures. I ended up getting a nice copy on 15ips 2 track tape, expensive, but still less than an original vinyl that you have.

Larry
I only now realize how expensive the original box set has become. I bought mine when I went to New York City for a conference about 30 years ago. I went to this address on an ad at the back of TAS. There was this old guy who had racks and racks of LPs in his apartment. I remember paying $50 for mine. The box was in very poor shape, but the LPs sound pristine.
 

oldvinyl

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Another rendition of the Bach Cello Suites with Nikolaus Harnoncourt. Different style of interpretation and playing.
I enjoy these and the Starker set.

PXL_20231010_213446526.jpg
Harnoncourt founded the period-instrument ensemble Concentus Musicus Wien with his wife, Alice Hoffelner. Alice played violin in the Concentus Musicus Wien.

The historically informed performance, or period instruments, can stir up a debate. That is not the intent here. I enjoy Bach on harpsichord, clavichord, lautenwerke, and modern piano. Gut strings or steel strings are fine by me. It is more about getting to the heart of the music, whatever the instrument.
 

LL21

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first Monday in October, a light rain falling, and i'm retired. had a busy Football weekend, a little baseball and the Ryder Cup too. so not much listening.

i pulled out my original pressing Bach Starker "Suites For Unaccompanied Cello"...Complete Box Set (Mercury SR3-9016). i do have the fine AP 45rpm box set, which is good.....this is 'gooder'. more sonorous. sweeter. more direct. more intimate. more shimmer and air on the strings. i'm more captured. maybe not quite as low noise, as energetic or big space sounding as the 45's. but......perfect rainy day morning music. wet sounding.:rolleyes:

Played one side each on 5 arm/cart combos. this music really sets the mood. and it also digs into what each arm/cart is doing. and if it's your cup of tea, and you are in the mood, gets deep into your soul. it is, i was, it did.

the CS Port linear tracker/Etsuro Gold the most subtle and least reproduced, T1/Tosca/DaVa the most on fire, the T1/FCL/Etsuro Gold the most luscious, the NVS/Tosca/At-MC2022 the most inciteful. the NVS/Telos/Koetsu Azule the most boisterous. obviously i'm over-simplifying and they all are beautiful and touch all the bases. but this music really does make it easier to understand what is going on. it's both right and left brain engaged. this music is life affirming.
Great stuff. Pulled out the Mercury SACD Starker Bach. Then compared with Kuijken and was suprised at how much I really like it. Then compared with the 2nd of Yo Yo Ma's sets which I have historically considered my favorite (not his original recording which felt extremely technical but perhaps not emotive enough for me). Then the Fournier, Maisky...

Overall, really like Yo-Yo Ma's 2nd set (not original), Starker and Kuijken...and have to say ended up playing that one 2 more times!
 
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miniguy

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Great stuff. Pulled out the Mercury SACD Starker Bach. Then compared with Kuijken and was suprised at how much I really like it. Then compared with the 2nd of Yo Yo Ma's sets which I have historically considered my favorite (not his original recording which felt extremely technical but perhaps not emotive enough for me). Then the Fournier, Maisky...

Overall, really like Yo-Yo Ma's 2nd set (not original), Starker and Kuijken...and have to say ended up playing that one 2 more times!
Ma’s third set is just wonderful from both performance and sound perspectives. My go to using modern cello.
 

Gregm

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For an emotional journey into Bach's cello I recommend the Pablo Casals rendition, from the 30s (no pristine sound quality here...)
1697006541516.jpeg
 

LL21

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For an emotional journey into Bach's cello I recommend the Pablo Casals rendition, from the 30s (no pristine sound quality here...)
View attachment 118021
Pristine Classics did a nice remastering job with these...have these as well...will have to pull those out. Thanks for the reminder!
 
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Chop

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bonzo75

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Great stuff. Pulled out the Mercury SACD Starker Bach. Then compared with Kuijken and was suprised at how much I really like it. Then compared with the 2nd of Yo Yo Ma's sets which I have historically considered my favorite (not his original recording which felt extremely technical but perhaps not emotive enough for me). Then the Fournier, Maisky...

Overall, really like Yo-Yo Ma's 2nd set (not original), Starker and Kuijken...and have to say ended up playing that one 2 more times!

Kujiken was a violinist, his Bach partitas on harmonia mundi are brilliant.

for the cello suites he played the shoulder cello

 

LL21

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Kujiken was a violinist, his Bach partitas on harmonia mundi are brilliant.

for the cello suites he played the shoulder cello

Great stuff! Will check that out, and yes, I remember reading about his Bach Cello Sonatas. As for Bobesco, got another disc in today...thanks for that recommendation. I have to say, pretty much ALL of them are remarkably well mastered and one in particular the 3-disc Tower Records is almost show-quality for its shocking sense of in-room realism.
 
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LL21

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Kujiken was a violinist, his Bach partitas on harmonia mundi are brilliant.

for the cello suites he played the shoulder cello

On Partitas, I have Perlman, Grumiaux, Podger, Ehnes, and Hilary Hahn. I think Ehnes is a truly remarkable violinist but found his tone sometimes a bit strident for me on Partitas. By contrast, I was wowed by Hilary Hahn's crack at these.
 

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