My feels about this forum

[the sound of Tao]

Tim I’d suggest there’s more to learn here than just about the gear spectrum we might be working within. There’s affordable and a bit beyond and all the way to so well beyond it’s in another postcode.

Other people’s discovery can make you open your eyes. This is a changing field and we can easily miss out on big picture developments and approaches to building systems.

I am not able to afford to go the Extreme end of the market yet the idea that investing more in servers can bring far more to the table than just forever trying to get the outcomes by focussing on the dac was something I’ve benefited from by listening to other’s adventures.

Or finding the encouragement to break out of a rut... audiophiles often are people drawn to constant improvement so we get caught in tweaking further and further but we can just forever add more boxes and in a system this can also be a double edged sword... sometimes what’s really needed isn’t small scale optimisation but simpler bigger more fundamental moves... maybe reconsidering our whole approach and that we are needing to push through our boundaries.

Sometimes it’s just learning about perspective and putting the crazy end of this pursuit into some digestible framework and also being reminded to enjoy the music and the journey... or to stop procrastinating in the pursuit of unobtainium levels because we tend to think that perfect is the only thing worth having. Most of us have real world limits here and yes clearly some have less, but it’s not always about the specifics but also about the processes.

There’s a myriad of things that can be learnt from the more extreme ends of this pursuit and what may trickle down from them and simply the diversity of approaches here and the lessons learnt from watching the journeys of a lifetime from people really willing (and able) to push the boundaries.

Sometimes just knowing which cart to choose, or which footer to not choose is really helpful but for me it’s the bigger perspectives that make for great mentoring. We are isolated in our little rooms giving over massive amounts of time if not money to this. Having an amazing spectrum of big and small experiences can be extraordinarily helpful and rewarding even if it’s not an avenue you then choose to go with... and also finally simply that the great stories of other’s experiences can just be enjoyable to share in for their own sake.

 

[Empirical Audio]

I've experienced myself a series of phases with hi-end audio:

Early cheap phase: Cannot afford much, but cobble together a decent system. Spend a lot of time playing tracks loudly and doing critical listening. Spend a bit more on a cable and discover the benefits. Try to do a lot of inexpensive tweaking.

Middle phase: Can afford a hi-end system (not megabux) , but have a lot of other priorities in my life. Tend to still concentrate on a few really good tracks and critically listen to these while adding new components and cables. Mostly the listening focuses on imaging quality and detail rendering. It's all about the system and little about the music.

Final phase: Can afford anything I want, but reluctant to spend megabux. Don't care about audio "jewelry", just performance. Since I design my own components now and have a company, I can get decent pricing on high-end stuff. I tend to use mostly my own stuff or modify other companies products. Finally to the point where I do almost no critical listening unless it's for a new product of my own design. Just enjoying the music. Really low jitter digital played a big part in achieving this, as well as tube SET amps and efficient speakers. Looking at more esoteric tweaks now, like acoustic resonators and active room treatments that make the walls disappear. This is a really fun phase. When I have to kill the music or movie for my wife to tell whether someone is outside talking or it's just coming from the system, I have arrived. When the dog jumps up from a dead sleep and starts looking around the room. Nirvana. Friends begging to come over and watch a movie now because it's so much better than the theaters or even the Omnimax.

 

[sbnx]

Tim, Welcome to the forum,. We can always use another perspective. The sound we hear is at least 75% room & setup. In most cases a well setup budget system can outperform a super expensive system where care has not been lavished on it.

Enjoy the music and the journey.

 

[Empirical Audio]

a few learnings that I can pass on:

1) keep it simple - minimize stages and components
2) eliminate ground loops
3) mess around a lot with speaker placement until it clicks
4) put acoustic treatments between and behind the speakers and on both sidewalls at a minimum, diffusers between and absorbers on the sidewalls
5) don't get cheap on the cables, particularly digital and analog interconnects
6) use balanced cabling where possible
7) optimize everything, it's a system where all of the parts matter

 

[BlueFox]

Firstly, even though I have the best system of anyone I know, I feel pretty poor here. The kit typically being knocked around is vastly expensive. Recommendations for components and accessories tend to be extremely expensive with a default position to spending a tonne. The average forum doesn't recommend £1000 cables without a second thought. When offering advice do you think much about what people's budget is, and more to the point if you've come across lower price point bargains? I've just seen a recommendation for a $4k streamer to a guy with a £200 amp!

Welcome. This is a good forum, but you need to take a lot of posters with a grain of salt. So to speak. I often refer to this forum as the ‘What’s most expensive.” forum.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . I also often feel I have little to contribute because my equipment is +25 years old, vintage some would call it.

. . .

Don't feel that way! Age doesn't matter!

Great sounding equipment which is 25 years old is still great sounding equipment!

 

[tima]

The really good ones will actually speak well about gear they don’t sell some times

The really good ones don't speak much about gear they haven't lived with for a while.

 

[Lagonda]

The really good ones don't speak much about gear they haven't lived with for a while.

Amen !

 

[Tim F]

Great to meet you all and thanks for the replies !

 

[spiritofmusic]

Nice Tim, shout "Fire!", and watch everyone run for the exits Lol.

 

[cjfrbw]

Nice Tim, shout "Fire!", and watch everyone run for the exits Lol.

Don't you mean: "Cheap but good audio"?

 

[spiritofmusic]

"Firesale"?

 

[cjfrbw]

I was kind of amazed a couple of months ago when members started indicating they were purchasing 'practical' power cords and eschewed the jewelry. It was like Mata Hari giving up her pearls.

Also, the modest 'anti-tweak room treatment' threads. It sounded like an abdication of holy writ.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I think it was thoughtful and introspective audiophiles being intellectually honest enough to examine their pre-existing assumptions and re-evaluate with an open mind their existing cables and tweaks.

 

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

Hi all,

Thought I'd share some thoughts, and ask a few questions. I'm from the UK and have been into hifi for many years. Recently started to spend more time here having been mostly on pinkfish and hifiwigwam forums. Firstly thanks to all who've been really helpful, welcoming and friendly. I was looking for more expertise as I started to move into more expensive levels of kit.

There seem to be a core group of posters most of whom know each other and a lot of people connected to the industry. Seems like a good thing as you see a lot of friendships. I wonder if there's scope to listen to some of these systems? Are you generally welcoming?

As there are a lot of industry connected people, I have to take some recommendations carefully. How clear are people when they are posting that they're recommending products they sell?

Firstly, even though I have the best system of anyone I know, I feel pretty poor here. The kit typically being knocked around is vastly expensive. Recommendations for components and accessories tend to be extremely expensive with a default position to spending a tonne. The average forum doesn't recommend £1000 cables without a second thought. When offering advice do you think much about what people's budget is, and more to the point if you've come across lower price point bargains? I've just seen a recommendation for a $4k streamer to a guy with a £200 amp!

Anyway a few thoughts! No offence meant, in case you were wondering....

Thanks, Tim

Hi Tim
my observation when visiting various audio fora is that each has a predominant culture ...or maybe 'tone' or 'character' , perhaps much like a piece of audio gear.

That 'cultural tone' has different facets but certainly one is defined by Money $$$.

Some fora might be described in terms of zealotry to debunk high-end audio. They tend to want to save people from themselves (people wasting their money) but they curiously tend to use sarcasm as their tool.Typically "science" is offered up to a point, but IME that point is until it clashes with their belief system.

There is a 'value tone' in some fora with a skepticism for expensive items based on the belief that money does not equate with quality, or at least a small fraction of the cost will give you near best quality, if not equally best quality.

The tone in other fora might be best described as liking what one likes even if at times the claims seem puzzling. The caveat here is that the easiest person to fool is probably ourselves and one must keep in mind that expectation bias (which works *both* ways) can influence our perception. That *might* include price tag (like expensive cables etc) but also includes cheap DIY tweaks.

As I see it money spent is a choice. Caveat emptor applies and people should choose according to their beliefs (see above) and their budgets. As I see it "What's Best" is inherently subjective but for me there is usually a clear correlation with price and what is "best". This applies to houses or audio gear and most material things. The correlation and concordance is not 100% and yes, there is the law of diminishing returns.

FWIW I don't think you have to spend a "tonne" to get excellent sound. It also depends on to what degree you are listening to the gear or listening to the music....and maybe a bit, how much you wish to disappear down the rabbit hole of tweaking

Just ny 2c YMMV
David

 

[Empirical Audio]

I tried to connect with an entirely measurement forum once. Very closed minds IMO. They measured my reclocker and published the results, which were positive. They all insisted that the current state of measurement was complete and no other measurements were required to characterize digital or analog devices. That listening tests were never needed.

Most of us know better. Ears are a critical tool in evaluating and designing equipment and many times go beyond what the measurements will tell you. Some measurement techniques could be developed that closed these holes, but there are a lot of deficiencies still IME.

 

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

They all insisted that the current state of measurement was complete and no other measurements were required to characterize digital or analog devices. That listening tests were never needed.

Yes, the proverbial penny dropped for me some years ago when someone announced they didn't care what happened beyond the audio signal, they couldn't control it. Up until then I had just assumed people judged music by listening to it. Its a whole other topic. The relevance here to the OP and money is the assertion that sometimes follows, that stuff that measures the same must sound the same ergo, spending more on something that measures the same is unjustifiable.

IMO audio measurements support human findings, even help guide human findings. They are surrogate markers or indirect indicators of human perception, not the perception.

 

[cjfrbw]

Both subjectivity and objectivity can be overdone, as well as the indulgence in cost for cost's sake coruscating jewelry. I do like to remember, though, that my flights of fantasy wouldn't be possible without the hard labors and sweat of scientifically minded objectivists. There are also the instances of collector's disease, of which I am a mild sufferer.

Markets will shape demand according to whatever the customers want and desire to pay, and that's another phenomenon. We probably all know there are fabulous and expensive systems, likely barely if ever used, in somebody's third, fourth or fifth home somewhere. There is a lot of love and obsession in audio that we know gets some in trouble on the business side to their detriment.

I was impressed that in gatherings of 'true' audiophiles, stuff was judged by performance by the groups more or less agnostically rather than strictly according to financial expectation bias, which lead me to respect the consensus. I tend not to want to waste a lot of time on stuff that doesn't sound good, no matter how grandiose.

 

[bonzo75]

"This applies to houses or audio gear and most material things."

I differ on this point, very different markets. One is a much more efficient market with better price discovery, and for many necessity with all the family involved.

The other is a guilty luxury hobby. The purchase price and market is very different from housing, shares, cars, etc

 

[Hear Here]

Hi Tim
my observation when visiting various audio fora is that each has a predominant culture ...or maybe 'tone' or 'character' , perhaps much like a piece of audio gear.

Just ny 2c YMMV
David

Gosh I hate that word "fora". Granted forum is derived from Latin but so are thousands of what are now English words. Forum is no exception to the general rule that the plural simply adds an "s" at the end. Lots of exceptions such as sheep,, but never drop a character to make plural, even though the Romans may have done so 2000 years ago!

The Oxford English Dictionary does accept that either forums or fora can be used, but surely fora looks just wrong and too much like flora?

Grumpy Old Man