Musings on the arc ls-17

[KeithR]

Thanks for the detail Mark- seems like the ARC gear today still sounds a bit too SS for my tastes if it's that close to your prior Krell setup. I had been considering a Ref 150, but think I will look elsewhere unless I can demo one in-house. I don't want warm syrup or classic tube sound, but I need some texture.

I do think the hybrid-design LS series of preamps sound SS as you do. The Ref apparently is a different story.

 

[mep]

Keith-I’m still wrapping my head around it all. This ARC gear is very clean, clear, and transparent. There is no artificial warmth added. I do like the sound of the LS17 better this time around since it has been paired with the VS115. They just don’t sound like what you expect tube gear to sound like and whether you think that is a positive or negative is something that people will have to decide for themselves. There is no doubt in my mind that ARC has strived to make their tube gear more neutral and these two components will prove that to those that listen.

As for the REF preamp sounding less SS than the LS17, I really have no idea. They all use Fets and 6H30 tubes. The REF series of preamps has ‘experimented’ with using different combos of tubes in the power supplies. The REF 2 actually used a tube rectifier while later series went to using tubes as voltage regulators.

I heard the REF 150 at last year’s RMAF and even under show conditions I was impressed.

 

[Bill Hart]

Mep- my experience with ARC is by no means recent. I owned an SP 3-a-1 back in the day and it was a revelation at the time. The only other preamps I remember were the Marantz 7c- a friend had one of those- the tubed McI- I think it was a C-22 and the original Levinson, which I never heard in a home. I also had an SP-10 for a long time, also glorious in a classic tube way, and a luscious phono section, but I remember going through hundreds of tubes to find ones that didn't sound microphonic. When the switch was made to the SP-11, it had that drier sound, compared to the SP-10. There was a time, i think it was circa late 70's, when ARC experimented with solid state- i think they called them 'Analog Modules' or something like that. As i remember, they were sealed units that plugged into a proprietary socket, and I don't think that detour lasted very long.
I've heard the most recent ARC line stage in a dealer's setting (it was a reference model, perhaps some anniversary designation), and it sounded impressive, but I was in no position to isolate the sound of the line stage from the rest of system. I haven't listened to c/j in years, although I'm aware that the top of the line preamps get rave reviews.

 

[mep]

Whart-ARC is still “experimenting” with SS as they have a SS lineup of gear. Going from the ARC SP-10 to the SP-11 was quite a change as the SP-10 represented the last pure tube preamp they made I do believe. And because the SP-10 attempted to handle low-output MC cartridges with nothing but tubes, it’s no wonder that you had to search the world over to find quiet ones. The SP-11 started ARC’s trend of using Fets in their preamps. The SP-10 and SP-11 surely sound like very different preamps. The SP-10 is close to achieving cult status for those who love to dwell in yesteryear’s sound. It is one of the few pieces of audio gear that continue to climb in value as the years go by.

As for the beloved Marantz 7 preamp, even Sid Smith said that he could make it sound much better if he rebuilt it using today’s better sounding resistors and capacitors. The old carbon comp resistors had a certain warmth to them that some love, but no one would argue that they were highly unstable over time and tended to drift off wildly from their original values. And when I said no one would argue, that’s probably not true as we have at least one person on this forum who wants to argue about everything.

 

[microstrip]

Mep,
If you can borrow them, try listening to your ARC gear with Shunyata power cables and interconnects. It can make the difference with ARC gear. The old Antares XLR is still a great buy, as well as the Python power cables.

 

[mep]

Mep,
If you can borrow them, try listening to your ARC gear with Shunyata power cables and interconnects. It can make the difference with ARC gear. The old Antares XLR is still a great buy, as well as the Python power cables.

I wish I knew someone who had some kicking around in a closet so I could listen to them. I certainly don't want to spend a bunch of money I probably couldn't get back in order to hope the ICs are better than the MIT XLR cables I'm using and the 20A PC that ARC provides with the VS115. I looked on Audiogon and the ony Python PCs they had were 15A.

 

[dafos]

Thanks for the detail Mark- seems like the ARC gear today still sounds a bit too SS for my tastes if it's that close to your prior Krell setup. I had been considering a Ref 150, but think I will look elsewhere unless I can demo one in-house. I don't want warm syrup or classic tube sound, but I need some texture.

I do think the hybrid-design LS series of preamps sound SS as you do. The Ref apparently is a different story.

Keith, Señor has a ref 150 that came from me. Still under 300 hours I believe. Btw, have the new V speakers arrived?

 

[microstrip]

Thanks for the detail Mark- seems like the ARC gear today still sounds a bit too SS for my tastes if it's that close to your prior Krell setup. I had been considering a Ref 150, but think I will look elsewhere unless I can demo one in-house. I don't want warm syrup or classic tube sound, but I need some texture.

I do think the hybrid-design LS series of preamps sound SS as you do. The Ref apparently is a different story.

KeithR,
I can assure you that the REF150 was the most "textured" amplifier I had in my system. All the details seem in place and the relation between them is so coherent that you feel your are digging more in the reality than the recording should allow. I have a recording that has the sound of boots walking over gravel and approaching. I have listened to it many rimes using many systems and the first time I listened to it in the REF150 I could feel the way the boot enters and leaves the gravel. The only problem with it - the Aida's seem to need more power. The alternatives are much more expensive and generate a lot of heat, or do not sound so good.

And it does not have a syrup sound!

 

[JackD201]

Keith, Señor has a ref 150 that came from me. Still under 300 hours I believe. Btw, have the new V speakers arrived?

Hi dafos, wrong Keith R. Keith goes by the username nephilim here. The new Vs have arrived. I've uncrated them but haven't begun running them in for Keith yet. The new Vs are at WW. Keith is in Europe and will be back in June.

 

[mep]

I strongly feel the LS17 is outclassed by the ARC VS115. The VS115 deserves better. In hindsight, it was a mistake to try the LS17 again. My thoughts and feelings haven’t changed much from the first time I heard it. The exception to that was I didn’t realize the amount of insidious noise being generated by the LS17. It’s low in level, it’s subtle, but it’s there.

The Krell KBL is a much more refined preamp than the LS17 and it’s dead-drop quiet. The Krell is also built to a much higher standard and that is saying something. Compare the sheet metal work on the LS17 to the Atma-Sphere MP-3 series and you will quickly see how much better the ARC preamp is made. But compare the Krell KBL to the ARC LS17 and you will see the distance between the two. The most important thing is to listen to them and determine which one sounds best. There is no contest IMO.

I guess that puts me back in the row boat with my head bashed. I won’t need to learn that lesson again.

 

[Bill Hart]

Mep, sorry to hear that. I wasn't busting your chops about trying it again, it was just that the travel agent/rowboat joke seemed to fit. As I think I mentioned earlier, my ARC experience is very dated- I started with an SP 3 back in the early 70's and eventually went to the SP-10mkii which i lived with for a long time. I never cottoned to the sound of the SP-11, which marked the change from old to new for ARC. Perhaps it is the hybrid set up of the line stage. I gather that the 'Reference' level ARC stuff still uses tubes in the power supply and that may make a difference. But, in some systems, perhaps the hybrid circuitry works fine. I went through this experience with my Steelhead, which sounded better adding a separate line stage, straight in it sounded a little too electronic for me, even with the best NOS tubes to add warmth.
BTW, don't ask me about mistakes, we have all made them- and you can easily resell the unit to someone who will find love in it.

 

[dafos]

Hi dafos, wrong Keith R. Keith goes by the username nephilim here. The new Vs have arrived. I've uncrated them but haven't begun running them in for Keith yet. The new Vs are at WW. Keith is in Europe and will be back in June.

Thanks for the correction, Jack. When the new V's are up and running, pls give me a ring, ok?

 

[JackD201]

Sure thing Jerry. Cor told me he met you in Munich. I bet you had a blast at that show

 

[Orb]

I am not too surprised about the LS17.
Mep I thought you were considering either a used Ref3 (would fit what your looking for better) or the LS27.
Cheers
Orb

 

[mep]

Orb-You are correct, but for the reasons I stated I couldn't make the jump to either of those two for the here and now. I just thought I would give the LS-17 another chance and use it with the ARC VS115 amp which I would have thought would make a good match. It didn't turn out to be so.

 

[Orb]

Ah Ok,
Sorry to hear that
Cheers
Orb