How does the convolution kernel work in HQPlayer for DSD? I would imagine it takes a trip to and from PCM.
Multi-bit DSD versus PCM
- Thread starter amirm
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It works the same way the volume control is implemented in the Sabre DAC chips. Conversion to multibit DSD. No PCM conversion at all.
Multi-bit DSD is PCM and requires interpolation and filtering plus dither. Yes that is how it is done in DSD DACs too but most fans of DSD like to think it does not
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Multi-bit DSD is PCM and requires interpolation and filtering plus dither. Yes that is how it is done in DSD DACs too but most fans of DSD like to think it does not
The problem with how most people think it's done is they are wrong. Berkeley is among this crowd. It's best to talk with Dustin Foreman of ESS or Jussi at signalist for a more accurate explanation.
To me this quote on the Berkeley website discredits them in my eyes as people I would listen to about anything:
"For all of these reasons, DSD capability for the Alpha DAC Reference Series is provided by a state of the art software application, JRiver Media Center, that provides either real time conversion of DSD 1X and DSD 2X to 176.4 kHz, 24 bit PCM during playback or, for the best possible audio fidelity, easy conversion to 176.4 kHz, 24 bit AIFF or WAV files prior to playback. The JRiver Media Center software application is included in the price of the Alpha DAC Reference Series and either Windows OS or Mac OS versions are available."
Because I already know doing things that way sucks completely.
I don't know that sucks nor did I base my comment on that. Once again you lecure the King of Audio on what audio is Mike! The king does not appreciate that.
I don't know that sucks nor did I base my comment on that. Once again you lecure the King of Audio on what audio is Mike! The king does not appreciate that.
You should sit down and have a conversation with these 2 guys and hear what they have to say. And forget about what others who know less have to say. We have the best DAC chip designer, and the best software based SDM/SRC guys between the 2. And both have exact same understanding on how things actually work.
This is my field of expertise Mike. I understand the signal processing, have read considerable amount of research, attended technical sessions when DSD first came out, etc. The moment you add more bits, you have a high sampling rate PCM system, not the original (consumer) DSD format which was the bit stream of sigma delta 1-bit converters.
Here is a quick reference you can read: http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=9903
"We demonstrate these effects, and using coherent averaging techniques, are able to display the consequent profusion of nonlinear artefacts which are usually hidden in the noise floor. Recording, editing, storage, or conversion systems using single-stage, 1-bit sigma-delta modulators, are thus inimical to audio of the highest quality. In contrast, multi-bit sigma-delta converters, which output linear PCM code, are in principle infinitely perfectible. "
"We demonstrate these effects, and using coherent averaging techniques, are able to display the consequent profusion of nonlinear artefacts which are usually hidden in the noise floor. Recording, editing, storage, or conversion systems using single-stage, 1-bit sigma-delta modulators, are thus inimical to audio of the highest quality. In contrast, multi-bit sigma-delta converters, which output linear PCM code, are in principle infinitely perfectible. "
This argument went on for pages and pages over on CA. I don't know all of the fine details, but I do know that both Dustin and Jussi have a different understanding on how the process works than folks like Berkeley do.
Anyways, I've personally done my own experiments with HQplayer and chips like the AKM 4490, to see how it affects the sound quality. Because that's what matters to me. And what I find is it does degrade quality no matter how it's actually done. With the Sabre chip this processing can't be bypassed, but it can with other chips like the AKM's.
I find using the directdsd bypass mode on the AKM chips to be superior to passing it through the multibit conversion block for volume control etc. I also find HQplayer to be slightly degraded as well when passing through this processing. But I am talking about a level of degradation that's much less than doing on the fly PCM conversions with Jriver. Even the finest offline conversions sound worse. So out of all the ways to apply DSP to a DSD stream, this way is the least compromised of anything I've tried.
Bob Stuart is against DSD simply for 1 reason. The whole system all of his gear is based on is DSD incompatible. It's impossible to have DSD compatible with the DSP chips they use. So rather than just tell people the real reason why he doesn't believe it in, it's much easier to just try to convince people that it's not as good. Same goes with Linn. It's also kinda like how Lampi said Linux sucks for audio because their USB interface wasn't native DSD capable, but as soon as a patch came up to make their USB interface native DSD capable, poof, now Linux is the king and Windows sucks.
Just watch, if mainstream mulitbit DSD capable low cost DSP chips come on the market, poof all the sudden Meridian and Linn will like DSD. This kind of practice is very common in audio, so it's best not to use marketing campaigns for education.
And to add to this, most of the articles that talk about DSD noise are outdated, and never mention that quad DSD makes the noise completely null and void. Most focus on single rate SACD format. HQplayer is an excellent tool to hear the difference between the formats.
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I did not know that Mike. I just mentioned his name because he's kind of an audio guru in the field of compressed audio (MLP).
And he's friend with Neil [strike]Old[/strike] Young. ...Pono stuff. ...After LPs and DVD-Audio.
Jitter, I want none. Quantization errors, I want none. Any noise, distortion, clicks, fans, motors, filters, ...I want none.
All I want is pure music. ...Like live, with all the natural atmosphere/ambiance and natural imperfections.
* Earlier today I was reading some over @ ComputerAudiofile.
And he's friend with Neil [strike]Old[/strike] Young. ...Pono stuff. ...After LPs and DVD-Audio.
Jitter, I want none. Quantization errors, I want none. Any noise, distortion, clicks, fans, motors, filters, ...I want none.
All I want is pure music. ...Like live, with all the natural atmosphere/ambiance and natural imperfections.
* Earlier today I was reading some over @ ComputerAudiofile.
Yes another issue with DSD, it can't be compressed. Well if you want the best sound anyways:
http://bitperfectsound.blogspot.ca/2014/12/dst-compression.html
You should try resampling all of your PCM to quad DSD with HQplayer then. Purest sound you will experience
Yes another issue with DSD, it can't be compressed. Well if you want the best sound anyways:
http://bitperfectsound.blogspot.ca/2014/12/dst-compression.html
You should try resampling all of your PCM to quad DSD with HQplayer then. Purest sound you will experience
I believe you Mike.
__________
It's funny on how some of us have hard time to reconcile reality with fiction, belief with disbelief.
I think it's part of human nature...did you see the film Experimenter ?
The problem is biases, combined with misconceptions and misleading marketing. Put them all together, and it can be a disaster for those who haven't preformed their own extensive hands on research and experimenting. But most simply don't have the time, dedication, knowhow or resources to do so. So they latch on to their favourite story and go with it, blindly defending it to the bitter end. This is why when I research things, I ask the top engineers who have no reason to be biased either way. Jussi from Signalyst is great resource for this topic. This is because his software does conversion from DSD to PCM or vice versa. It can do the best job no matter how your DAC works, or format it's compatible with. And he doesn't sell hardware. So why would he have a bias for anything except what will offer the best real world performance?
No I haven't seen it. Is it on Netflix?
It sounds right what you've just said above.
'Experimenter' is on Blu-ray (DVD). I don't know if it's on Netflix.
It sounds right what you've just said above.
'Experimenter' is on Blu-ray (DVD). I don't know if it's on Netflix.
Cool I'll check it out! We usually just watch movies on Netflix as we have the U.S Netflix here and plenty enough selection for us. Canadian Netflix on the other hand is pretty lame.
Ok, you are a DSD ueber Alles kind of guy. Glad you enjoy it.
You naively mischaracterize Stuart's position on DSD. He had, and still does have have a choice in the design of his gear and in supporting DSD or not. He rejected DSD for his own technical, sonic and business reasons, hence his gear does not support it. It is not the other way 'round, as you would have it. He is not alone in the engineering and technical community. Many prefer PCM. Others prefer DSD. Anecdote: it is interesting to note that the late, great recording/mastering engineer, Doug Sax, of one-time Sheffield Direct-to-disc analog recording fame, tried DSD, then became a strong advocate of 192k PCM before he died a few years ago.
I try to be open minded, myself. My system supports DSD up to 4x on playback, and also PCM up to 384k. So far, I have yet to hear the compelling sonic difference afforded by DSD. I have also heard other's systems set up specifically for DSD, one at a DSD-advocate recording engineer's home studio, with outstanding components. Again, for me, there is no compelling sonic reason for me to switch to pure DSD playback, given DSD's disadvantages in playback processing, such as the lack of tools for bass management, speaker distance correction and most Room EQ.
It is not yet on Netflix (Canada & USA); I just checked.
The film was released in mid-October 2015 (October 16) @ theaters, and on Blu-ray @ the beginning of January 2016 (January 5th).
? http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/experimenter-2015
? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obedience_to_Authority:_An_Experimental_View
Okay, please explain how it's possible for DSD to be compatible with Meridian digital systems?
You are explaining more misconceptions as well. Did you even consider that the hardware/software they used at the time may of had an influence on their impressions? All of the ADC's and mastering packages sound different. And this has nothing to do with the formats.
Have you tried resampling all of your PCM with HQplayer yet? This might change your mind if you try.
And lastly I already explained a few posts back that HQplayer can process all of this DSP on a DSD stream.
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