More Consensus That Streaming Is An Inferior Format & Not High End?

[bonzo75]

Thing is there are many bad components at atrocious prices, so price is not an indicator. Now, even if we take only those good components at higher prices, leaving out the bad, there is a level to which price does provide quality, but after that it becomes pointless. In some products, justification for higher prices leads the manufacturer to introduce things that actually have a negative impact, where he should have left it simple.

 

[Amir]

The Industry never followed Audiophile dreams.

Clark Johnsen was not fan of CD when CD replaced Vinyl. After 20 years of Improving CD playback most of us believe Vinyl is better than CD.
Now File/ Streaming is New but I think CD playback is better than Streaming.

Real High End is Master Tape ...

 

[microstrip]

We can have preferences, that are beyond discussion, but we also have objective facts.

Streaming is just the way the bits are delivered to our systems - the same we have with CDs, files on hard disk drives, SDDs or memory sticks . Unfortunately due to copyright and legal issues we are not able to capture the streaming content and rip it, something that limits our personnel experimental field, something audiophiles love. But the point is that, as long as the formats are bit exact, it is a technological question to make them sound alike, not a religious matter. It can take time, but we will arrive there.

The high-end is essentially an activity that manipulates the stereo signal to deliver an enjoyable experience, sometimes in a microscopic way bellow what is typically measured. Noise coming from digital activities entering our systems can affect its performance in unexpected ways - still a lot to be learned in this subject.

However, IMHO in adequate systems, top streaming can deliver an excellent performance, at the level of top analog - surely depending on user preference, as we are always comparing apples with oranges. Remember that the best of digital is a digital recording, not an analog sourced digital recording. And unfortunately (or maybe fortunately ) for audiophiles, musical performance will always bias our comparisons and we can't travel back in time.

 

[microstrip]

The Industry never followed Audiophile dreams.

Clark Johnsen was not fan of CD when CD replaced Vinyl. After 20 years of Improving CD playback most of us believe Vinyl is better than CD.
Now File/ Streaming is New but I think CD playback is better than Streaming.

Real High End is Master Tape ...

Well, for me Real High end is DXD. Unfortunately most recording companies are not wanting to distribute DXD copies of their masters.

 

[bryans]

This topic is another example of why I steer people away from this "hobby". Just the idea that one has to use a certain format to be considered "high end" is ridiculous.

 

[microstrip]

Thing is there are many bad components at atrocious prices, so price is not an indicator. Now, even if we take only those good components at higher prices, leaving out the bad, there is a level to which price does provide quality, but after that it becomes pointless. In some products, justification for higher prices leads the manufacturer to introduce things that actually have a negative impact, where he should have left it simple.

Very true, but the main question is quantifying this level and the too numerous exceptions to such rules.

Lampizator owners will immediately say around 50k, dCS users say 100k, Wadax users say 250k ...

As I often say, wisely used more money returns a better system if you have the room for it.

 

[bonzo75]

Very true, but the main question is quantifying this level and the too numerous exceptions to such rules.

Lampizator owners will immediately say around 50k, dCS users say 100k, Wadax users say 250k ...

As I often say, wisely used more money returns a better system if you have the room for it.

Well, I would disagree with a lot of what you said but both of us know that.

 

[microstrip]

This topic is another example of why I steer people away from this "hobby". Just the idea that one has to use a certain format to be considered "high end" is ridiculous.

Well, the tittle of the article and thread is just an example of a choice of tittle that is deeply erroneous and clamorous to attract readers. Anyone being able to read outside the range of his umbilicus will know that this claim is not consensual between audiophiles. But is it is much more attractive than "Streaming - a format of choice by the majority of audiophiles"

 

[bryans]

Exactly

 

[PeterA]

Francisco, do you think streaming is the primary source component for members of WBF? Could be an interesting cool question. A lot of members certainly have it, but I wonder if they consider it their highest quality source for sonic reasons, or if they listen to it mostly for convenience and then something else for sound quality. I’m curious because my local audio file friends don’t really have streaming except for one guy and whenever I go over there we listen to vinyl.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Francisco, do you think streaming is the primary source component for members of WBF? Could be an interesting cool question. A lot of members certainly have it, but I wonder if they consider it their highest quality source for sonic reasons, or if they listen to it mostly for convenience and then something else for sound quality. I’m curious because my local audio file friends don’t really have streaming except for one guy and whenever I go over there we listen to vinyl.

i'm going to guess that if we did a survey we would find about 65%-75% of listening time is streaming across the forum. does not mean they like or love it....only it's how they listen mostly.

some zero, but many, many more 100% streaming.

statistically how many only have a dac but no transport? how many have a turntable but mostly listen to the dac?

 

[dminches]

I assume what is being implied here is that there is a distinction between "streaming" and "playing local files." If that is the case then those who think they can't be equal, or close, haven't listened to the current start of the art for streaming. If the distinction isn't being made then those people are saying that they can't get emotionally involved with music that is digitally sourced.

Until 2-3 years go I was in the camp of not getting emotionally involved. That all ended with the purchase of the Taiko Audio Extreme and was further enhanced with the Lampi Horizon. And, with some of the current innovations by Taiko Audio, and even before the new switch is released, I find that the sound quality differences between streaming from Qobuz or playing local files is very small and depends more on the mastering of the file set as opposed to from where the music is being grabbed.

 

[wil]

I am always open to a discussion that realizes a format is not perfect and how we can improve it. We have two discussions going on. Bob Dylan suggesting the streamers are doing something to make music sound "smooth and painless." Then we have Paul suggesting the streamers are damaging the music by unknown (to Paul at least) compression algorithms.
To me at least, the term "CD quality" is an oxymoron. CD has never been my standard for anything. CD is an example of the problems of digital. I find Tidal has addressed many of those problems. As I frequently say when man cures a problem, he creates another problem.
I am all for making streaming better. I worry that it will follow the path of FM radio. When Tidal becomes truly successful, I worry that an Elon Musk clone will pay too much to acquire it and cannibalize the company to recoup the cost.
Here is to making streaming as good as possible. Please don't make CD the standard. It was a bad idea from the beginning and should be allowed to wither on the vine. MO YMMV

If I’m not mistaken, I think Dylan was referring to the ease of locating and playing music being “smooth and painless”, not to the sound of streamed music.

 

[Gregadd]

If I’m not mistaken, I think Dylan was referring to the ease of locating and playing music being “smooth and painless”, not to the sound of streamed music.

Could be. Not somethng you would normally complain about. In retrospect I think I may have been a bit harsh on Bob. I will read it again.
Unless you care to post the quote.

 

[Gregadd]

Here's the quote I can concede it is at least ambiguous. If it meant what you say does, I would expect him to say accessing music is too easy. I stand by my interpretation. Tidal does a lot more to music than just send it over the airwaves.

"Streaming has made music too smooth and painless. Everything’s too easy. Just one stroke of the ring finger, middle finger, one little click, that’s all it takes. We’ve dropped the coin right into the slot. We’re pill poppers, cube heads and day trippers, hanging in, hanging out, gobbling blue devils, black mollies, anything we can get our hands on. Not to mention the nose candy and ganga grass. It’s all too easy, too democratic. You need a solar X-ray detector just to find somebody’s heart, see if they still have one.”
Make your own call.

 

[PeterA]

i'm going to guess that if we did a survey we would find about 65%-75% of listening time is streaming across the forum. does not mean they like or love it....only it's how they listen mostly.

some zero, but many, many more 100% streaming.

statistically how many only have a dac but no transport? how many have a turntable but mostly listen to the dac?

Mike, I was just trying to figure out what is meant by “a format of choice by the majority of audio files”. I stream too, but not in my main system for sonic quality. Does a format of choice mean the same as a preference?

 

[microstrip]

Francisco, do you think streaming is the primary source component for members of WBF? Could be an interesting cool question. A lot of members certainly have it, but I wonder if they consider it their highest quality source for sonic reasons, or if they listen to it mostly for convenience and then something else for sound quality. I’m curious because my local audio file friends don’t really have streaming except for one guy and whenever I go over there we listen to vinyl.

Do you think that WBF membership is needed to be considered an audiophile?

And here we go again - because streaming is convenient to use people do not suffer to listen and surely it makes it inferior quality. I have no doubt that many people trained along decades to listening to vinyl artifacts or using systems tuned by these artifacts created a preference to it and love it. I am happy for them. Your local "audio file" friends - curious Freudian mistype in your post - are exactly what we call a non representative sample of the whole audiophile community - too few and directly connected through you.

The typical audiophile has given up since long in vinyl - they got tired of clicks and pops, stylus alignment and poor pressings. The vinyl resurgence is non audiophile, it is mostly a social and musical event.

Answering your first question, WBF membership is an hard to estimate and analyze community. We have a very large number of members, unfortunately the number of posting participants is small. Statsitics on WBF members can have an error between 100 and 1000%, according to our bias.

 

[PeterA]

Do you think that WBF membership is needed to be considered an audiophile?

And here we go again - because streaming is convenient to use people do not suffer to listen and surely it makes it inferior quality. I have no doubt that many people trained along decades to listening to vinyl artifacts or using systems tuned by these artifacts created a preference to it and love it. I am happy for them. Your local "audio file" friends - curious Freudian mistype in your post - are exactly what we call a non representative sample of the whole audiophile community - too few and directly connected through you.

I thought I would narrow the field to just WBF members since we are here. Of course audiophiles don’t need to be members.

The Apple iPhone goddess Siri does not recognize “audiophile” so types “audio file”. I often dictate when composing posts.

We are influenced by friends. Me local audio friends are simply a sample surely not representative of all audiophiles. I am simply observing that they do not stream for the most part. A couple do though. It’s all good.

 

[wil]

Here's the quote I can concede it is at least ambiguous. If it meant what you say does, I would expect him to say accessing music is too easy. I stand by my interpretation. Tidal does a lot more to music than just send it over the airwaves.

"Streaming has made music too smooth and painless. Everything’s too easy. Just one stroke of the ring finger, middle finger, one little click, that’s all it takes. We’ve dropped the coin right into the slot. We’re pill poppers, cube heads and day trippers, hanging in, hanging out, gobbling blue devils, black mollies, anything we can get our hands on. Not to mention the nose candy and ganga grass. It’s all too easy, too democratic. You need a solar X-ray detector just to find somebody’s heart, see if they still have one.”
Make your own call.

I don’t think he’s talking about sound quality. He’s talking about how music in our present day is wallpaper, I think. It’s a pretty colorful quote. Bobby D has a way with words!

 

[ddk]

Hi David,
Interesting. So which TT system costing $500 outperforms one costing $50K, both optimally set up obviously?

My comment said gear in general I wasn't focusing on tts but you can still buy a nicely sorted out Garrard 401 $600-$700, stick in a nice plinth and put it up against some of the popular ones in 5-6 figure range and see for yourself. For obvious reasons we won't get into brands and models.

david