Mike Lavigne’s room and neutrality

[microstrip]

I too have been "lucky" with my rooms...although I am beginning to suspect that a decent room is not as rare as people think...at least here in Europe where we tend to have brick or concrete walls.

Some well known experts and acoustic consultants tell us that concrete walls are a nightmare. The main problem in most small or medium sized rooms are the nulls and peaks caused by bass reflection, solid walls can be very problematic.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Indeed, I cannot imagine the same sum spent on gear for my old room being anywhere near as optimal as the sound I’m currently getting.(...)

What was the size of your old room?

 

[spiritofmusic]

It’s somehow comforting to know NOTHING in audio has simple, predictable solutions.

I’m so glad I didn’t go down the expensive consultant-led planned acoustician route.

One, I may have been told my loft wasn’t the way to go.

Two, their solutions will have cost way more with no guarantee of superior results, indeed things could have turned out worse.

My space is borderline on the damped side, which I quite like having played music up there for a year now. But I wouldn’t want it seriously more damped, and if reports are to be believed, many planned spaces are pretty damped.

I may experiment a bit with GIK Gotham diffuser panels to see their effects.

 

[bonzo75]

What was the size of your old room?

It was not the size. It was a converted hanger, some kind of metallic ceilings, loads of corners, some empty space, loads of reflection, etc. Anyway how much was that room, how much not is tough to say except for those who have heard the same gear in both rooms... Marc and Ron. And I will be. Marc chose this place carefully, so if you don't hear from me after my trip, look in the moat which Marc has next to his new place

 

[microstrip]

It was not the size. It was a converted hanger, some kind of metallic ceilings, loads of corners, some empty space, loads of reflection, etc. Anyway how much was that room, how much not is tough to say except for those who have heard the same gear in both rooms... Marc and Ron. And I will be. Marc chose this place carefully, so if you don't hear from me after my trip, look in the moat which Marc has next to his new place

Thanks, I just wanted to know the size ... Meters or feet, I do not care!

 

[bonzo75]

Thanks, I just wanted to know the size ...

It wasn't one size like a closed room. It was a big studio opening into various places, asymmetrical

 

[morricab]

Some well known experts and acoustic consultants tell us that concrete walls are a nightmare. The main problem in most small or medium sized rooms are the nulls and peaks caused by bass reflection, solid walls can be very problematic.

I have found just the opposite...bass is in floppy walls just gets lost.

 

[Pb Blimp]

I have found just the opposite...bass is in floppy walls just gets lost.

My room was designed with all four walls and the ceiling made from double layer sheets of quietrock and green glue floating on springs to optimize bass nulls and peaks. I also have seven tuned helmholtz traps and 3 RPG Bass Plates. I am very happy with the bass.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I have found just the opposite...bass is in floppy walls just gets lost.

small room acoustics means in the bass you don't know where you are at until you hear the space, then you have to deal with it. no way to model it completely. it took 12 years for me to get the bass all the way right in my 'perfect' room. but looking back I don't see where clear mistakes were made, it was just my learning and taking logical steps.

 

[Al M.]

Some well known experts and acoustic consultants tell us that concrete walls are a nightmare. The main problem in most small or medium sized rooms are the nulls and peaks caused by bass reflection, solid walls can be very problematic.

Perhaps that's why I never had any serious problems with bass. I always lived in wooden houses in the US since having a subwoofer.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Francisco, the main open space was 27’ wide x 22’ deep x 13’ high, with an open kitchen at the back to one half of the space 12’ x 10’ x 13’, and to the other half, a restricted headroom alcove above bathroom 13’ x 10’ x 5’.

Walls were stud/plasterboard, solid concrete floors with timber floating surface, concrete/beamed ceilings.

The front wall behind speakers 27’ x 13’ was 70% glass.

 

[microstrip]

small room acoustics means in the bass you don't know where you are at until you hear the space, then you have to deal with it. no way to model it completely. it took 12 years for me to get the bass all the way right in my 'perfect' room. but looking back I don't see where clear mistakes were made, it was just my learning and taking logical steps.

The question that can be asked - but impossible to answer - is if you had a real expert advising you it would take 12 years to get the bass "all the way right".

 

[microstrip]

Francisco, the main open space was 27’ wide x 22’ deep x 13’ high, with an open kitchen at the back to one half of the space 12’ x 10’ x 13’, and to the other half, a restricted headroom alcove above bathroom 13’ x 10’ x 5’.

Walls were stud/plasterboard, solid concrete floors with timber floating surface, concrete/beamed ceilings.

The front wall behind speakers 27’ x 13’ was 70% glass.

It looked to be a great space. It seems glass is not a problem - we just have to select the proper kind of glass. And some of the best sound I have listened was in a very large room that had a mirror covering more than half of the surface of the front wall.

I would love to have such a large space for my system!

 

[wisnon]

Some well known experts and acoustic consultants tell us that concrete walls are a nightmare. The main problem in most small or medium sized rooms are the nulls and peaks caused by bass reflection, solid walls can be very problematic.

Yup, that is why Rowen HATES Bass reflex design here where virtually everything built here is with thick concrete. One just has to furnish the room accordingly. I am Lucky that my ports are all downfiring.

How do people here deal with standing wave creation in their rooms. Symmetry being your enemy here?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Francisco, I pretty much have the same floor area, prev 27x22, now 48x18.

A big advantage I have is absolute symmetry of setup, especially speakers to side walls.

In my old space, one Zu was 4’ from side wall, the other in open space, 13’ from opposite side wall.
Both my Zus are equidistant at 4’ from side walls, 9’ from front walls as opposed to 5’.

The other, possibly critical difference, is that my descending eaves from mid point apex of 10’ high seem to gently “funnel” the music towards me.

Maybe there’s a breaking up of nodes too, with the space being pentagonal on cross section.

My tt is coping admirably with the flexy 35’ x 30’ overall floor structure with assistance of Stacore Advanced.

So, large floor area, but manageable volume (2/3 that of my old space), a shape which maybe really contributes positively, symmetrical layout, lack of concrete or glass, 2/3 carpeted, reasonable but not excessive dampening materials in eaves, side walls and floor - all contributing to an absolute lottery win acoustic.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

The question that can be asked - but impossible to answer - is if you had a real expert advising you it would take 12 years to get the bass "all the way right".

I would say that 'real experts' are the ones who realize it's just not that predictable. you have to try things, and then try more things. and when it works then you are viewed as a 'real expert' when you were just relentless.

maybe 95% of the people would have figured out the bass in my room in half the time or less. but 99.99999% never even seriously considered doing a room like mine.

I claim only commitment and effort as attributes.

 

[Rodney Gold]

I deal with standing waves (and other room issues ) 3 ways .. bass trapping in corners , siting the listening chair and speakers in a neutral space and a Trinnov room correction unit .. at one time I also used a swarm of subs to smooth the room.
The trinnov is amazing , it fixes amplitude , phase , impulse response and group delay as well as compensating for early reflections and has the ability to remap your speakers if there is asymmetry (level, delay etc) and you can apply any manner of target curve or eq you wish.
There are issues that physical treatment cant cure and some that DSP cant cure either so using both is mandatory for me.
My walls are all clad with slotted and grooved mdf panels atop battens with fibrewool behind the panels
This stuff

http://www.acousticsolutions.co.za/product.htm

 

[Bruce B]

Mike of course has had the additional bonus of gear that’s both been tested together, and tested in his room, so that it’s four intersecting epiphanies, ie sounds exemplary, sounds exemplary together, sounds exemplary together in his room, sounds exemplary together in his room to his ears..

This is the key sentence. There are folks that do not like the sound of his room....... Mike is happy and that's all that matters!!

 

[spiritofmusic]

Well, I never read anything other than favourable reports.
Maybe the naysayers are too polite to criticise publicly.

 

[Joe Whip]

No matter how perfect a room may be and sound, there will always be someone who does like the sound. Kind of the way things are.