Magico S5's in the house...

[cannata]

Yes, this is somewhat true. One of the ways I made some strides in this area was to change from Transparent to MIT speaker cables. The MIT did wonders for clearing up the mud I was hearing in the mid bass. Ironically I just sold my Transparent cables.

Another thing I've noticed is dynamics - reduced - on the Magicos. It's got me thinking about what is more natural. For example, one of my favorite tunes (both from audiophile and music perspectives) is The Girl From Ipanema by Getz/Gilberto. The bass in that song is pretty darn robust and would almost overwhelm on my Alexias but is rather subtle on my S5's. But that's beside the point. When the sax comes in, I'm used to it being huge and a couple phrases into it, some notes JUMP out at you and almost bowl you over they are so dynamic (i.e. they are so much louder). On the Magicos this is not very pronounced - the volume doesn't change much. You sense some amount of emphasis on Stan Getz' part, but nowhere close to what the Wilsons deliver - it's like the performance itself is different. Now, sometimes dynamics are unsettling - I would sort of 'brace myself' for those notes where as now it just sort of floats by...

I'm not sure what to make of this just yet.

Gat yourself an RTA app and look at the region these notes are jumping at you. You will soon notice that they do jump, on everything you listen to (perhaps not in the same intensity as they do with a sax). It is not dynamic range, it is uneven power response. Once you “hear” that coloration, it is all over

 

[BlueFox]

After reading so much about the bass from S5s, I too was a bit underwhelmed after I received my S5s. However, I soon realized that was because most classic rock does not have any real bass, so to speak. On the other hand, when the few Lady Gaga songs in my playlist come on then there is no question. Bass is there, and it is clear and precise. Of course, since I mostly listen to string quartets this really isn't a big issue for me, but when Patricia Barber is played there is no issue either.

 

[scouter]

Lorde's album (CD) has some great bass for evaluation, as well as Earnest Ranglin's Under the Bassline. Both are very nice for evaluating bass in your system. In the end, thought, MacFloyd may prefer the Wilsons, and that's fine. I think both speakers bring great things to the table, and I can see the argument for either. I think you could get a better idea of a speaker comparison using Spectral equipment. I know it sounds great with the S5s, and Peter MacGrath told me at a listening session for the Alexias that the Spectral 260- Alexia combo that he heard in Europe was one of the best he's heard. I personally could live with either, assuming my system was tweaked to bring out the best either has to offer.

 

[rhyno]

trust your ears.

i heard roughly the exact same things w/ the S3s i have...stunning bass resolution (best i've heard) , but not enough (quantity) of it for my LT satisfaction. (also, dynamics were inbetween rockports (magico exceeded) and wilsons (nothing exceeds). elsewhere in frequency range / staging / detail, S3s are stunning. but bass was an issue.

easy enough to integrate a sub in your setup...just get sealed (JL worked great for me) and let the mains run full range...you WILL hear anything in the signal path if you have ears to hear, and its easy enough to bring up the sub---just set the LP filter low enough (prob 40hz in your case, 50hz worked on my S3s), 12 to 24db/octave filter, that way the sub output drops rapidly as you head into the mid-upper bass.

if you don't want to go the sub route, don't be surprised if you never warm up to them. everyone listens differently, and every piece has tradeoffs.

(the XA amps you have are not by any means underpowered, but they're not the iron-fist that the magicos like either).

 

[edorr]

The more I am reading this (consistent with my own listening to the S5s), the more I think the Evolution Acoustics MM3 approach (sealed enclosure, active and 2x massive 15" drivers) may be the ticket to the best of both world (bass precision, extension and impact). I thought the S3s in the small world were defying the laws of physics (need to move air), but it appears the laws are holding up after all.

 

[MadFloyd]

trust your ears.

i heard roughly the exact same things w/ the S3s i have...stunning bass resolution (best i've heard) , but not enough (quantity) of it for my LT satisfaction. (also, dynamics were inbetween rockports (magico exceeded) and wilsons (nothing exceeds). elsewhere in frequency range / staging / detail, S3s are stunning. but bass was an issue.

easy enough to integrate a sub in your setup...just get sealed (JL worked great for me) and let the mains run full range...you WILL hear anything in the signal path if you have ears to hear, and its easy enough to bring up the sub---just set the LP filter low enough (prob 40hz in your case, 50hz worked on my S3s), 12 to 24db/octave filter, that way the sub output drops rapidly as you head into the mid-upper bass.

if you don't want to go the sub route, don't be surprised if you never warm up to them. everyone listens differently, and every piece has tradeoffs.

(the XA amps you have are not by any means underpowered, but they're not the iron-fist that the magicos like either).

Thanks for your thoughts. I have two REL subs that I use to mate with Sashas (didn't need them with Alexias) that are gathering dust and I will try those (once I get some help to move the Alexias out of the room )

I appreciate the XA amps aren't the last word in bass control, but the .8's have so much bass that I was worried about too much bass (or warmth in general). Makes me wonder what amps would work with the S5's without sounding thin.

 

[cannata]

The more I am reading this (consistent with my own listening to the S5s), the more I think the Evolution Acoustics MM3 approach (sealed enclosure, active and 2x massive 15" drivers) may be the ticket to the best of both world (bass precision, extension and impact). I thought the S3s in the small world were defying the laws of physics (need to move air), but it appears the laws are holding up after all.

No, you got it wrong. You can't have both world. If you are looking for excessive bass, you will mud up your midrange. You are either linear or not. Just spend some time studying how we perceive sound. Start with the famous Fletcher–Munson curves. The louder we play, the "louder" we perceive bass, if we change the actual bass output to sound like we have more of it at "normal" levels, we will have WAY too much of it when the volume increases.
It is the way our brain equalize loudness. You can't mess with it.

Using sub below 40 Hz, may or may not give you what you are looking for. It will certainly not change the "dynamics" of the set up. Wilson "dynamics" are far from realistic and induce severe coloration, but if that is what you are after, then Magico is not for you.

 

[rockitman]

Wilson "dynamics" are far from realistic and induce severe coloration, but if that is what you are after, then Magico is not for you.

lmao ! Using your logic, MadFloyd should sell off his entire system and start from scratch trying to dial in elusive satisfaction with the S5. Great advice...Bravo !

 

[steve williams]

To me it's all about flavors. No right and no wrong. Pick your flavor, the one that rocks your sonic boat and that's what it should be all about


I use a 30 wpc amp to drive my huge Wilson X2's. Just as many have said here that the quality of bass is improved but you lack that dynamic thump in your chest with deep bass.

easy enough to integrate a sub in your setup...just get sealed (JL worked great for me) and let the mains run full range...you WILL hear anything in the signal path if you have ears to hear, and its easy enough to bring up the sub---just set the LP filter low enough (prob 40hz in your case, 50hz worked on my S3s), 12 to 24db/octave filter, that way the sub output drops rapidly as you head into the mid-upper bass.

This is exactly how I got the best of all worlds with a pair of Fathom113 in my room Wilson's run full range and the subs cross out anything above 42 Hz

I really don't get what you guys are arguing about.

As I said, we all have our sonic preferences. As Ron Party here always says, "pick your flavor"

BTW I've spent close to 50 years in this hobby thinking exactly like most of you. My solution however has given me a system beyond anything I would have ever predicted

Loosen up guys

 

[edorr]

No, you got it wrong. You can't have both world. If you are looking for excessive bass, you will mud up your midrange. You are either linear or not. Just spend some time studying how we perceive sound. Start with the famous Fletcher–Munson curves. The louder we play, the "louder" we perceive bass, if we change the actual bass output to sound like we have more of it at "normal" levels, we will have WAY too much of it when the volume increases.
It is the way our brain equalize loudness. You can't mess with it.

I'm looking for an acoustic bass that sounds like and acoustic bass at "normal" listening levels (Trying to realistically portray a drum-kit is elusive IMO), while not losing any clarity in the mid-range. The former (realistic bass) I achieved with the active 15" woofers of the MM3s, the latter (no loss of mid range clarity) took a huge leap applying DRC.

 

[cannata]

I'm looking for an acoustic bass that sounds like and acoustic bass at "normal" listening levels (Trying to realistically portray a drum-kit is elusive IMO), while not losing any clarity in the mid-range. The former (realistic bass) I achieved with the active 15" woofers of the MM3s, the latter (no loss of mid range clarity) took a huge leap applying DRC.

In live events, these instrument has different loudness to begin with. Once recorded, those that are too "loud" get compressed, or master in at a lower level. You can't then redo it in the playback system. It may work for one recording on one volume setup, but it can't be a global solution. Sound reproduction has it limits.

 

[edorr]

In live events, these instrument has different loudness to begin with. Once recorded, those that are too "loud" get compressed, or master in at a lower level. You can't then redo it in the playback system. It may work for one recording on one volume setup, but it can't be a global solution. Sound reproduction has it limits.

I realize you are always going to be messing with the relative levels of instruments on a recording/system and the unamplified balance between the live instruments is not the best reference. Live venues have serious compromises and trade off's as well. However, it is a fact that to reproduce a realistic bass, you need to move air.

 

[rockitman]

However, it is a fact that to reproduce a realistic bass, you need to move air.

+1..if you can't pressurize your room, you aren't hearing a realistic reproduction.

 

[cannata]

+1..if you can't pressurize your room, you aren't hearing a realistic reproduction.

Really?? when was the last time a double bass pressurized any room or a club? In fact, when was the last time any instrument, or orchestra for that matter pressurized any hall? You are looking for experiences that have nothing to do with real music.

 

[edorr]

Really?? when was the last time a double bass pressurized any room or a club? In fact, when was the last time any instrument, or orchestra for that matter pressurized any hall? You are looking for experiences that have nothing to do with real music.

Pressuring the room may not be the best choice of words - open air concerts would fall flat. "Moving air" is quite accurate though - simple physics.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Really?? when was the last time a double bass pressurized any room or a club? In fact, when was the last time any instrument, or orchestra for that matter pressurized any hall? You are looking for experiences that have nothing to do with real music.

when the recording starts, but before the first note, and the ambience of the venue is reproduced by your system....either your bass 'hooks up' and the complete vibe of the venue is communicated to the limits of the recording or it's not communicated fully. the greater the precision and headroom of your bass reproduction, the more complete the ambient 'life' is related. then when something musically happens it happens right the hell now since it's loaded.....and it also stops 'right now' too given sufficient precision.

this ability to 'load' your listening room is related to driver size and horsepower.

full disclosure; i'm a sealed box kinda guy myself with a pair of 750 pound of sealed box bass towers. although i'm not one to subscribe to any dogma one way or the other. i still view it as mostly an execution issue. i've not heard bass reflex do bass like my sealed boxes; but they might be able to do it.

 

[MadFloyd]

I too think sealed cabinets are superior to ports when it comes to quality of the bass. The question then becomes whether there's enough air movement to bring the level of the bass in line (or balance) with the rest of the instruments. The 'mix' if you will.

The size of the room versus the number and size of the bass drivers would be the equation.

While I don't expect acoustic bass to pressurize the room in the way that a kick drum or electric bass guitar at a rock concert does, I do expect that when I raise the volume on my preamp such that the acoustic bass is at a realistic level, the other instruments aren't overly loud. This is what I'm experiencing to a degree. If piano, sax and drums all seem to be at realistic level, the bass is relatively quiet. I'm sure if I had a smaller room this wouldn't be the case.

 

[edorr]

While I don't expect acoustic bass to pressurize the room in the way that a kick drum or electric bass guitar at a rock concert does, I do expect that when I raise the volume on my preamp such that the acoustic bass is at a realistic level, the other instruments aren't overly loud. This is what I'm experiencing to a degree. If piano, sax and drums all seem to be at realistic level, the bass is relatively quiet. I'm sure if I had a smaller room this wouldn't be the case.

I find this to be the case even with my 4 x 15" woofers in my small room ON MANY RECORDINGS. However on other recordings the balance is just fine, so I conclude this issue is mostly a result of the bass being turned down relative to other instruments during the mastering process. I find the same to be the case with drums.

 

[Bruce B]

The more I am reading this (consistent with my own listening to the S5s), the more I think the Evolution Acoustics MM3 approach (sealed enclosure, active and 2x massive 15" drivers) may be the ticket to the best of both world (bass precision, extension and impact). I thought the S3s in the small world were defying the laws of physics (need to move air), but it appears the laws are holding up after all.

Tried them and couldn't get the bass right. You know what I went to.

 

[Garth]

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