Magico M9 vs. Magico Ultimate 3 Horn- Box vs. Horn! Which will be better? In which ways?

schlager

Well-Known Member
May 7, 2015
358
193
275
Denmark
Hi LL21
.it is about creating a greater sense of venue, of venue that surrounds your existing space and creates almost a kind of 'bubble' within which your music exists and fills your sound room.
Sub bass down to 20 hz will indeed enhance the soundstage and give more spatial cues.

1: Yes, there is no replacement for displacement :) In general capacity in the bass department is greatly overlooked. Probably because it requires powerfull subs and more than one. You can't have to much headroom, as long as you can control all that power with DSP.

2. Correct. A normal cone bass will increase movement by a factor of 4, for each time you go an octave lower for the same amplitude. For example at 95 db at 100 hz it moves 1mm, then at 50 hz that will be 4mm and at 25 hz 16mm. Horns only double for each lower octave. So that would be 1 mm at 100 hz, 2 mm at 50 hz and 4 mm at 25 hz. And we haven´t incorporated the difference in efficiency between the cone and the horn. The "price" for horns is size.

3. Yes, that is the "trade off" between cone and horn.

4. No it is only for "the looks". It does absolutely nothing for the deep bass.

5. It really depends on what you are trying to achieve. If you want bass down to 20 hz a front loaded horn will be VERY BIG, we are talking several cubic meters (1 m3 = 35.3 ft3). Another option is tapped horns, they operate in a different way, but are still in the family of horns. They can go very low for less size. The price is less efficiency compared to FLH and a somewhat smaller bandpass. Closed cone boxes need a lot of power and probably some eq to reach 20 hz, but it can be done. Writing this, Hoffman's Iron Law comes to mind :).

Generally speaking great in-room bass can be achieved with different approaches. In the end, it is the implementation of the chosen bass solution, that is paramount.

Hope it helps a bit.
 

schlager

Well-Known Member
May 7, 2015
358
193
275
Denmark
perfect, how many notch filters did you set with dsp until it looked like this? you work with dsp, what 15"woofer do you use,when the question is allowed
None, it is a simulation. The driver is Fane Colossus 15XB.
 

DasguteOhr

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2013
2,432
2,611
645
Germany
None, it is a simulation. The driver is Fane Colossus 15XB.
honor your simulation, but with the woofer 25 hz it becomes difficult +15 dB eq (fs 40hz fane) i would yourecommend the AE TD15M( fs 34hz) woofer works great and with horns.
 

schlager

Well-Known Member
May 7, 2015
358
193
275
Denmark
honor your simulation, but with the woofer 25 hz it becomes difficult +15 dB eq (fs 40hz fane) i would yourecommend the AE TD15M( fs 34hz) woofer works great and with horns.
Thanks for your recommendation :)
 

schlager

Well-Known Member
May 7, 2015
358
193
275
Denmark
Not any better as I see it

AE driver AE response.JPG

Fane driver

bass response.JPG

Cheers
 

schlager

Well-Known Member
May 7, 2015
358
193
275
Denmark
It's the horn that pretty much dictates the total system response. The AE driver lacks motor force, that is why it has a more uneven FR. You could put in many different Pro 15" drivers, with a BL +20, in that horn and it would still basically be the same FR.
 
Last edited:

DasguteOhr

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2013
2,432
2,611
645
Germany
Simulation are good, trust me in real a big difference for me best woofers you can buy.the same league like good altecs or jbls for horns.
Try it my tip for you

 
Last edited:

schlager

Well-Known Member
May 7, 2015
358
193
275
Denmark
Dasguteohr, I´m happy for you, but I´m all good. Thanks for the advice anyway.
 

DasguteOhr

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2013
2,432
2,611
645
Germany
Dasguteohr, I´m happy for you, but I´m all good. Thanks for the advice anyway.
everything is fine, i have build a horn for a friend with it, i no longer have any horns i have another speaker system.;) Have fun with your horns
 
  • Like
Reactions: schlager

schlager

Well-Known Member
May 7, 2015
358
193
275
Denmark
And yet no Stereophile measurement of a Wilson has actually demonstrated time coherence based on the step function test like a Vandersteen or Thiel. With Wilson, sorry to say, it’s marketing BS. A digital time alignment is very accurate done correctly.
Speaking of measurements. Despite of bad DAC´s and what not :) here is what I measure in my listening position.

Left speaker

L MÅLT.jpg

Right speaker

R MÅLT.jpg

Impulse response L


L MÅLT IR.jpg

IR right

R MÅLT IR.jpg

Step response L & R Step response L and R.jpg

Not perfect, but close enough.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sbo6 and kodomo

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,530
5,057
1,228
Switzerland

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,430
2,517
1,448
Hi LL21
.it is about creating a greater sense of venue, of venue that surrounds your existing space and creates almost a kind of 'bubble' within which your music exists and fills your sound room.
Sub bass down to 20 hz will indeed enhance the soundstage and give more spatial cues.

1: Yes, there is no replacement for displacement :) In general capacity in the bass department is greatly overlooked. Probably because it requires powerfull subs and more than one. You can't have to much headroom, as long as you can control all that power with DSP.

2. Correct. A normal cone bass will increase movement by a factor of 4, for each time you go an octave lower for the same amplitude. For example at 95 db at 100 hz it moves 1mm, then at 50 hz that will be 4mm and at 25 hz 16mm. Horns only double for each lower octave. So that would be 1 mm at 100 hz, 2 mm at 50 hz and 4 mm at 25 hz. And we haven´t incorporated the difference in efficiency between the cone and the horn. The "price" for horns is size.

3. Yes, that is the "trade off" between cone and horn.

4. No it is only for "the looks". It does absolutely nothing for the deep bass.

5. It really depends on what you are trying to achieve. If you want bass down to 20 hz a front loaded horn will be VERY BIG, we are talking several cubic meters (1 m3 = 35.3 ft3). Another option is tapped horns, they operate in a different way, but are still in the family of horns. They can go very low for less size. The price is less efficiency compared to FLH and a somewhat smaller bandpass. Closed cone boxes need a lot of power and probably some eq to reach 20 hz, but it can be done. Writing this, Hoffman's Iron Law comes to mind :).

Generally speaking great in-room bass can be achieved with different approaches. In the end, it is the implementation of the chosen bass solution, that is paramount.

Hope it helps a bit.
Wow! Thank you very much. Perhaps we could then take these fundamentals and seek to apply them [very roughly speaking] in a more basic, real-world situation (ie, our room!)

So we have a room 13m long x 5.5m wide x 3.3m high. The speakers fire down the long side which is a good start. They are also situated at 4m firing down 8m or so.

We have 1 x 18" subwoofer with active servo and has been integrated 'reasonably well'. So of course given what you say above about 'general capacity' being generally overlooked, let me ask you a the next major question:

1. ASSUMING GOOD INTEGRATION (FOR NOW)...HOW MANY OF THESE SUBS WOULD YOU SUGGEST STARTS TO BE 'SUFFICIENT CAPACITY' IF WE ARE LOOKING TO DELIVER VERY COMFORTABLE, EFFORTLESS, LOW-DISTORTION BASS DOWN TO 20HZ OR EVEN SLIGHTLY BELOW?

- At the moment, we are contemplating 4 x 18" woofers...again, assuming we do a good job in integration, do you think that is sufficient, or do we need more air movement/displacement capability?
- The cutoff recommended by Wilson is generally around 28hz - 38hz depending on room. So we are talking about driving the sub from an upper range of 38hz and DOWN.

2. IN THE SPACE ALLOCATION OF 2 X 2 FOOT CUBES (IE, 2 SUBS OF 6 CUBIC FEET EACH)...IS THERE ANYTHING IN THE HORN WORLD YOU WOULD RECOMMEND?
- A smaller cone but with a horn in front of it? Is that a tapped horn?
- The space allocation of 2 X 6 cubic feet represents 4 X 18" woofers where each 6 cubic foot box is comprised of 2 dual-opposing 18" CONES
 
Last edited:

schlager

Well-Known Member
May 7, 2015
358
193
275
Denmark
How much EQ applied?
Enough to make the impulse response work correctly in both the frequency and time domain.

I'm intrigued to know why you ask?
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,530
5,057
1,228
Switzerland
Enough to make the impulse response work correctly in both the frequency and time domain.

I'm intrigued to know why you ask?
Well it looks like the lower frequencies are not in time...that might not matter much. I have found that the more processing I applied the more “synthetic “ the whole thing sounded...kind of like when a voice is auto tuned.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sbo6

schlager

Well-Known Member
May 7, 2015
358
193
275
Denmark
Wow! Thank you very much. Perhaps we could then take these fundamentals and seek to apply them [very roughly speaking] in a more basic, real-world situation (ie, our room!)

So we have a room 13m long x 5.5m wide x 3.3m high. The speakers fire down the long side which is a good start. They are also situated at 4m firing down 8m or so.

We have 1 x 18" subwoofer with active servo and has been integrated 'reasonably well'. So of course given what you say above about 'general capacity' being generally overlooked, let me ask you a the next major question:

1. ASSUMING GOOD INTEGRATION (FOR NOW)...HOW MANY OF THESE SUBS WOULD YOU SUGGEST STARTS TO BE 'SUFFICIENT CAPACITY' IF WE ARE LOOKING TO DELIVER VERY COMFORTABLE, EFFORTLESS, LOW-DISTORTION BASS DOWN TO 20HZ OR EVEN SLIGHTLY BELOW?

- At the moment, we are contemplating 4 x 18" woofers...again, assuming we do a good job in integration, do you think that is sufficient, or do we need more air movement/displacement capability?
- The cutoff recommended by Wilson is generally around 28hz - 38hz depending on room. So we are talking about driving the sub from an upper range of 38hz and DOWN.

2. IN THE SPACE ALLOCATION OF 2 X 2 FOOT CUBES (IE, 2 SUBS OF 6 CUBIC FEET EACH)...IS THERE ANYTHING IN THE HORN WORLD YOU WOULD RECOMMEND?
- A smaller cone but with a horn in front of it? Is that a tapped horn?
- The space allocation of 2 X 6 cubic feet represents 4 X 18" woofers where each 6 cubic foot box is comprised of 2 dual-opposing 18" CONES
Nice big you room you have got. What model 18" driver do you have?

1. in combination with you main speakers (Wilson) 4 x 18" will suffice. No matter what bass solution you end up with, cone or horn, or EVEN a combination, it should be incorporated as Distributed Subwoofers (Multiple subs, swarm subs). That will require DSP and seperate amps for all subs (active). There are tons of information on how to implement Multiple Subs. It will be beyond the scope to go into detail here, I´m afraid. I will recommend looking at Multi-Sub Optimizer software, for good integration of the subs and your main speakers.


As a general rule I would use the subs to 80-100 hz for a better in-room bass response.
For setting up such a system you need a calibrated measuring microphone and audio software like REW, ARTA og HOLM. I use REW, very nice program with tons of ways to analyzing your frequency response (Impulse Response).

2. Tapped horn can be made as a tall square column, with a small footprint. Again there are tons of information on tapped horns. It will be beyond the scope to go into detail here. Driver type is important here, with lots of x-max, at least +-10 mm.

An example here:

IMG_20171203_134043.jpg
 

schlager

Well-Known Member
May 7, 2015
358
193
275
Denmark
Well it looks like the lower frequencies are not in time...that might not matter much. I have found that the more processing I applied the more “synthetic “ the whole thing sounded...kind of like when a voice is auto tuned.
Well recorded acoustic and vocal music sounds natural and relaxed, absolutely no "autotune " artifacts here, but that is just my subjective opinion, LOL.
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,430
2,517
1,448
Nice big you room you have got. What model 18" driver do you have?

1. in combination with you main speakers (Wilson) 4 x 18" will suffice. No matter what bass solution you end up with, cone or horn, or EVEN a combination, it should be incorporated as Distributed Subwoofers (Multiple subs, swarm subs). That will require DSP and seperate amps for all subs (active). There are tons of information on how to implement Multiple Subs. It will be beyond the scope to go into detail here, I´m afraid. I will recommend looking at Multi-Sub Optimizer software, for good integration of the subs and your main speakers.


As a general rule I would use the subs to 80-100 hz for a better in-room bass response.
For setting up such a system you need a calibrated measuring microphone and audio software like REW, ARTA og HOLM. I use REW, very nice program with tons of ways to analyzing your frequency response (Impulse Response).

2. Tapped horn can be made as a tall square column, with a small footprint. Again there are tons of information on tapped horns. It will be beyond the scope to go into detail here. Driver type is important here, with lots of x-max, at least +-10 mm.

An example here:

View attachment 88394
Thank you! That is great help. Yes, we would definitely have professional installation as part of this 4 x 18". At the moment, we have a single, servo sub the Velodyne DD18+ whose software enabled us to dial it in reasonably well. Somewhere I have the measurements which showed 20hz - 200hz 3db+/- in our old room, and the same individual came this time, but I did not get a snapshot of the measurements when he did them this time.

In any event, we will continue to focus on this approach because (even though the tapped horn footprint is small...that thing is a gigantic column which would not work in our place despite our ceiling height (aesthetics). Yes, we could custom paint it, add mouldings around it...but still...not ideal. (We painted our dual columns of 3x Stillpoints Aperture panels/column the same color as the living room and added gentle, slight mouldings to the outer edges to ensure they were more in keeping but those are much smaller, flatter and behind the speakers as well.)

In any event, we will continue to focus on the 4 x 18".

Finally, a question about 80hz for the subs. With the XLFs, that is the first time I am hearing we should aim for blending them that high. Nearly every single Wilson XLF/Alexandria/XVX setup I am aware of has the subs coming in (either in parallel or with cutoff of the mains) around 28hz - 38hz.

Why do you prefer 80hz-100hz?
 

schlager

Well-Known Member
May 7, 2015
358
193
275
Denmark
Thank you! That is great help. Yes, we would definitely have professional installation as part of this 4 x 18". At the moment, we have a single, servo sub the Velodyne DD18+ whose software enabled us to dial it in reasonably well. Somewhere I have the measurements which showed 20hz - 200hz 3db+/- in our old room, and the same individual came this time, but I did not get a snapshot of the measurements when he did them this time.

In any event, we will continue to focus on this approach because (even though the tapped horn footprint is small...that thing is a gigantic column which would not work in our place despite our ceiling height (aesthetics). Yes, we could custom paint it, add mouldings around it...but still...not ideal. (We painted our dual columns of 3x Stillpoints Aperture panels/column the same color as the living room and added gentle, slight mouldings to the outer edges to ensure they were more in keeping but those are much smaller, flatter and behind the speakers as well.)

In any event, we will continue to focus on the 4 x 18".

Finally, a question about 80hz for the subs. With the XLFs, that is the first time I am hearing we should aim for blending them that high. Nearly every single Wilson XLF/Alexandria/XVX setup I am aware of has the subs coming in (either in parallel or with cutoff of the mains) around 28hz - 38hz.

Why do you prefer 80hz-100hz?
The whole point of multiple Subs is to have as many bass sources in the room under 80-100 hz. That is to even out the in-room response and why not utilize all that nice cone area you have with 4 x 18" drivers. Further I would roll off the mains under 60 hz or so, to give them a bit of relief. If you never play loud then this is not so important, but if you do, you would really give you Wilsons a much easier life of freeing them in the lower octaves (under 60 hz). If this is done correctly you will have tremendous bass capabilities under 100 hz, with accuracy, timing, punch and slamm, that you never thought possible, without sounding bloating or of a "one note bass". Good luck!

Cheers
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,530
5,057
1,228
Switzerland
Well recorded acoustic and vocal music sounds natural and relaxed, absolutely no "autotune " artifacts here, but that is just my subjective opinion, LOL.
This what you must say to defend your choices. That’s fine but my experience is that many people either don’t hear the difference or are not willing to acknowledge the difference because they cannot believe another level of realism is possible. With a lot of digital processing there are side effects that can be heard.
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing