Magico M9 vs. Magico Ultimate 3 Horn- Box vs. Horn! Which will be better? In which ways?

[morricab]

If I understand you correctly, I would actually turn this the other way around. It is an even bass FR and well integrated with the mains or midrange, that allows you to hear the quality of the main speakers. For example if you have a 8 db peak at 100 hz, due to room problems (or bad speaker design), it will severely mask the surrounding frequencies and it will tilt the spectral balance, giving the sound a muffled feeling.

If you refer to the front end gear, I´m very much an objectivist. You can "colour" or "eq" your speakers a bit with different types of gear, especially tube amps. I just find it more beneficial to eq the total response after analysing the measurements I take.

I would say that bass response also is a matter of the amp control and adequate power supply. For me tube amps won´t suffice, because they have high output impedance due to the use of output transformer. This will give low damping control over the bass driver.

Let me know if I misunderstood your question.

A proper bass horn will already have the driver critically damped (not to mention that good horn drivers typically have low Qts) and don't require additional damping from the electronics. IME, this always overdamps the bass to where, at least with passive designs, makes the bass all but disappear.

You are not taking into account artifacts from cheap digital processors, like the Behringer in your photo that I also have for experimentation, that simply are acting as a hinderance to proper sound quality. Sorry, there is no other way to put it really...you haven't begun to hear what your speakers are capable of I think.

 

[morricab]

I don´t understand that term "fast bass". The driver will swing accordingly to the frequency it is fed. A small 5,5" diaphragm will have to swing a lot more than say a 15" driver, for the same amplitude, so that don´t hold up. What perhaps will give a different tonal character, could be things like distortion, mechanical noise, beside that I don´t believe that there will be much sonic difference, as long as the driver/horn combo is played within it´s bandpass and kept below severe distortion and dynamic and thermal compression. In the bass it is mainly about in room FR and integration with the mains/midrange

Horns brings mainly superior SPL, dynamic and transient capabilities to the table.

They will not all stop/start the same...a heavy cone may very well have overhang. The driver in a horn doesn't have to "swing"...in fact they hardly move at all due to the loading with the horn. My 10 inch backloaded horns don't move visibly at all, regardless of the material or the level (only once with really loud pipe organ where they were overdriven and at a frequency well below the horn loading)...same for my 8 inch drivers in TQWT loaded cabinets...not even 1mm of motion I tell you playing Yello at over 100db. Add to that, I believe this is a compression driver where the compression chamber is integral to the driver and so we are probably talking micrometers of motion. This thing probably has very low distortion at normal listening levels.

 

[schlager]

"you haven't begun to hear what your speakers are capable of I think."
That is a blunt statement. The Behringer is not even hooked up LOL. I use an Mini DSP, because it has biquads, for easy programming. Not going down that rabbit hole LOL.

 

[schlager]

They will not all stop/start the same...a heavy cone may very well have overhang. The driver in a horn doesn't have to "swing"...in fact they hardly move at all due to the loading with the horn. My 10 inch backloaded horns don't move visibly at all, regardless of the material or the level (only once with really loud pipe organ where they were overdriven and at a frequency well below the horn loading)...same for my 8 inch drivers in TQWT loaded cabinets...not even 1mm of motion I tell you playing Yello at over 100db. Add to that, I believe this is a compression driver where the compression chamber is integral to the driver and so we are probably talking micrometers of motion. This thing probably has very low distortion at normal listening levels.

I was referring to general cone motion, horn or no horn, same thing. Large drivers will move much less period.

 

[morricab]

"you haven't begun to hear what your speakers are capable of I think."
That is a blunt statement. The Behringer is not even hooked up LOL. I use an Mini DSP, because it has biquads, for easy programming. Not going down that rabbit hole LOL.

but you use the built-in DACs or not?

 

[morricab]

I was referring to general cone motion, horn or no horn, same thing. Large drivers will move much less period.

I was also referring to the cone motion...my drivers don't move, regardless of the level because of the horn loading...

 

[Audiophile Bill]

First of all, your horn amazing work and very well explained.

You need YL Acoustic 1250ss driver(40kg) 16hz-800hz and a 4.5 -5.0m horn ( mouth 1.5m) to go below 30hz. A pair over 8k€ last time sold ukmart. remains a dream that cannot be realized in normal living spaces View attachment 88298

Also a dream for me. I got the YL D75000 for a project one day but that is mid bass duties only.

 

[schlager]

Yep very transparent ones AND an USB converter.

 

[schlager]

"my drivers don't move, regardless of the level because of the horn loading..."
Well that pretty much goes for all horns. Logic tells me a small driver in a horn, will still have to work harder, than a big driver in a horn, at the same frequency and amplitude.

 

[Salectric]

Also a dream for me. I got the YL D75000 for a project one day but that is mid bass duties only.

I haven’t heard bigger YL drivers, but my YL 5500G is rated down to 100 Hz. I have heard them in some fairly large YL horns with a crossover as low as 220 Hz.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Also a dream for me. I got the YL D75000 for a project one day but that is mid bass duties only.

amazing driver like goto japan

 

[DasguteOhr]

"my drivers don't move, regardless of the level because of the horn loading..."
Well that pretty much goes for all horns. Logic tells me a small driver in a horn, will still have to work harder, than a big driver in a horn, at the same frequency and amplitude.

The horn driver diaphragm moves only 1.5 mm and the 15 inch woofer to get 100 dB at 25 Hz, for example 8-10 mm. Who makes the lower distortion? The problem is that you have to accelerate drivers with such a large horn that you move the same mass of air in your room as with a woofer. look how big the horn must be for exsample the smaller yl driver.

 

[schlager]

The horn driver diaphragm moves only 1.5 mm and the 15 inch woofer to get 100 dB at 25 Hz, for example 8-10 mm. Who makes the lower distortion? The problem is that you have to accelerate drivers with such a large horn that you move the same mass of air in your room as with a woofer. look how big the horn must be for exsample the smaller yl dri

My simulations tells a different story. At 1 watt at 25 hz it looks ok to me

 

[morricab]

The horn driver diaphragm moves only 1.5 mm and the 15 inch woofer to get 100 dB at 25 Hz, for example 8-10 mm. Who makes the lower distortion? The problem is that you have to accelerate drivers with such a large horn that you move the same mass of air in your room as with a woofer. look how big the horn must be for exsample the smaller yl driver. View attachment 88306

The acceleration is the key...thus the enormous magnet...

 

[morricab]

Yep very transparent ones AND an USB converter.

Ummm probably not...

 

[DasguteOhr]

The acceleration is the key...thus the enormous magnet...

Only one point, the yl 1250ss magnet 10kg, the remaining 30kg to make it as stable as possible, the resonance chamber behind the diaphragm is more important. if there are no resonances, the better the sound. try removing the cover on the back of the horn driver and steam the inside with a thin layer of blutak modeling clay.

 

[morricab]

Only one point, the yl 1250ss magnet 10kg, the remaining 30kg to make it as stable as possible, the resonance chamber behind the diaphragm is more important. if there are no resonances, the better the sound. try removing the cover on the back of the horn driver and steam the inside with a thin layer of blutak modeling clay.

A 10Kg magnet is still pretty large, no?

 

[DasguteOhr]

A 10Kg magnet is still pretty large, no?

Middle GOTO drivers 25-40kg,look here if you want some beasts. Best site to find those drivers

OTOMON Laboratory?(????) / Horn Drivers

OTOMON Laboratory?(????)

 

[LL21]

Sure LL21, fire away and I´ll try to respond

Thank you. So let me ensure I start with some 'base pillars' to start a proper approach to sub 40hz bass. Please feel free to correct/edit anything in here:

My Base Pillar of what Great Bass is All About
- In all-out systems, my experience has been that all-out bass is not necessarily about shaking your rib cage...it is about creating a greater sense of venue, of venue that surrounds your existing space and creates almost a kind of 'bubble' within which your music exists and fills your sound room. When the subwoofer is unexpectedly turned OFF in such a system, literally the sense of the jazz club disappears in a 'snap', and suddenly you are back in your living room, left with great soundstaging in between the speakers...but you are not in the club anymore...you've been transported back to your room.


QUESTIONS
1. Is great bass really about lots and lots of distortion-free, air movement/displacement?

2. Does the horn bass vs the cone bass comparison come down to the fact that horn bass is about a small cone with low distortion that is taking advantage of a pure, relatively low-distortion passive amplification via horn loading...while the great big cone with no horn loading has to actually move all of that same air by itself? So it is working a LOT harder with more distortion, etc that accompanies it?

3. IF SO, then the flip side of the above comparison ALSO comes down to the fact that for comparable air movement, many high quality cone-subs are a LOT more compact than the comparable true, pure bass horn.

4. In which case, when we think about the fact that the HORN BASS is still a cone...is there a reason that sub designers of big cones dont just add a small section of horn to the end of their sub? And then really bring down how hard that 18" cone has to work for a given volume? (Perhaps they do...as a novice, I refer to REL, Velodyne, Magico, Funk Audio and others whose cone subs are well regarded but where in none of them is there any element of horn associated with them at all.

5. Size-wise, where in your mind does the horn start to diminish in beneficial effect to a plain stand-alone cone?

I hope this is off to a helpful start, but if I am simply asking random questions that look like a bowl of spaghetti...well, please feel free to start off on the CORRECT base pillars of Horn bass vs cone bass.

 

[DasguteOhr]

My simulations tells a different story. At 1 watt at 25 hz it looks ok to me

View attachment 88308
View attachment 88309 View attachment 88311

perfect, how many notch filters did you set with dsp until it looked like this? you work with dsp, what 15"woofer do you use,when the question is allowed