Mac vs PC

[amirm]

Last time I had a desktop Unix system was in 1995 when I was managing Unix development (among other things) at Sony. Since Windows NT came out, I haven't had the need to keep two machines on my desk (one "workstation" running Unix and another PC or Mac).

So my history with Unix went from 1980 to 1995....

 

[MylesBAstor]

Don't brand me a traitor for switching


Started out in the early '80s on a Mac 512+ and SE30. Problem was that everyone in science (and my dept) were using PCs. They used to laugh at me for being able to click on an icon and pull up the document I needed; I on the other hand, laughed when they had to type (and remember) a DOS command to get anything on the screen. Who was crazy?

But there were a number of problems in those days-not the least of which was platform compatibilty and that gov't agencies began requiring grant proposals to be submitted on laser printer (dot matrix wasn't allowed). Mac gear esp. in those days was really expensive with laser printers approaching $2500 -and as a poor Assistant Professor, finally had to break down and get a PC so could use the laser printer.

But I really admired the Mac and in my time in publishing, pretty much all mags are laid out using Macs.

And nowadays, compatibility between platforms and software is rare but still out there (my nutrition and video analysis system only run on PC).

 

[Nicholas Bedworth]

All my gear is Windows-based, meaning Windows 7, plus one Vista machine that's used as an audio server.

What's simply amazing to me is how much you get for $1000 these days, for example the HP HDX 18/dv8t series... it starts with an 18.4" screen, close to a terabyte of hard drive, Blu-Ray DVD player, HDMI, 4 USBs, Firewire, and on and on and on. If you watch the merchandising channels carefully, they are constantly changing small details in the configuration and packaging. It's often possible to get "last weeks" version for deep discount (www.buydig.com).

One other caveat: it's usually way cheaper to buy through channels, rather than on the HP Website. Configuring your "perfect" PC will easily cost 20-30% more than simply buying a similar, or identical, unit through distribution. Basically, using the Website is an "experience" for which you pay dearly.

I've had zero problems with viruses or reliability in years. All the flack about PCs being this or that is from 10 years ago. Today's Windows 7/PC products are a huge improvement over the past, as is Office 2010.

A similar Apple laptop is close to $3000, which is triple the cost of the HP, except that Mac Book Pro doesn't have Blu-Ray, smaller disc, etc. The big advantage of the MBP is the excellent display (presumably an LG/Philips) which is definitely nicer appearing than those on the HP.

For use with audio, WASAPI gives bit-perfect output without any hassles.

I would however very much like to get a 17" MCB for audio review purposes. Some new digital audio products are oriented towards iTunes, and offer quite a few nice features.

 

[Nicholas Bedworth]

My favorite computer of all times...

Is a humble Acer Aspire 1410. It has a terrific LED screen, beautifully made, fast, portable, HDMI output, with full Windows 7. And it costs $350. It was quite an eye-opener, that something so cheap could be so good, but it is.

 

[MylesBAstor]

All my gear is Windows-based, meaning Windows 7, plus one Vista machine that's used as an audio server.

What's simply amazing to me is how much you get for $1000 these days, for example the HP HDX 18/dv8t series... it starts with an 18.4" screen, close to a terabyte of hard drive, Blu-Ray DVD player, HDMI, 4 USBs, Firewire, and on and on and on. If you watch the merchandising channels carefully, they are constantly changing small details in the configuration and packaging. It's often possible to get "last weeks" version for deep discount (www.buydig.com).

One other caveat: it's usually way cheaper to buy through channels, rather than on the HP Website. Configuring your "perfect" PC will easily cost 20-30% more than simply buying a similar, or identical, unit through distribution. Basically, using the Website is an "experience" for which you pay dearly.

I've had zero problems with viruses or reliability in years. All the flack about PCs being this or that is from 10 years ago. Today's Windows 7/PC products are a huge improvement over the past, as is Office 2010.

A similar Apple laptop is close to $3000, which is triple the cost of the HP, except that Mac Book Pro doesn't have Blu-Ray, smaller disc, etc. The big advantage of the MBP is the excellent display (presumably an LG/Philips) which is definitely nicer appearing than those on the HP.

For use with audio, WASAPI gives bit-perfect output without any hassles.

I would however very much like to get a 17" MCB for audio review purposes. Some new digital audio products are oriented towards iTunes, and offer quite a few nice features.

Count yourself lucky not having had any problems. Had a Dell whose hard drive crashed and wasn't resurrectable (that taught me to back up). Then a HP whose mother board was defective from the start, finally died, was replaced and then died again four months later. Gateways are pieces of junk that fall apart. Years ago had a Gateway PC whose power supply blew up three weeks after I got it and then went thru three monitors who died.

Biggest problem I see is the heat buildup from these new chips and small fans/ventilation. On my last PC, the fan clogged and then eventually died. So take home msg is take a vacuum cleaner ever three months and clean your PC's fan.

 

[Ron Party]

Count yourself lucky not having had any problems. Had a Dell whose hard drive crashed and wasn't resurrectable (that taught me to back up). Then a HP whose mother board was defective from the start, finally died, was replaced and then died again four months later. Gateways are pieces of junk that fall apart. Years ago had a Gateway PC whose power supply blew up three weeks after I got it and then went thru three monitors who died.

Biggest problem I see is the heat buildup from these new chips and small fans/ventilation. On my last PC, the fan clogged and then eventually died. So take home msg is take a vacuum cleaner ever three months and clean your PC's fan.

I couldn't have said it better, Myles. I swore off Dell a few years ago, and Gateway a few years before then. And just now, I got off the phone with HP customer service, who will be sending me a box so I can return a computer I bought just last October for a motherboard replacement.

 

[amirm]

One note on viruses. I have never had any kind of anti-virus on any of my personal machines! Let me repeat that: I have never had any anti-virus software on any of my PCs and have never experienced any issues related to that. If you are careful where you go and what you open, the risk simply is not there. Of course, I have a firewall and let Outlook file away spam.

Not saying you should follow my lead but that while viruses can do serious damage, prevention is the best method of dealing with them!

 

[Nicholas Bedworth]

On the virus front, the only incident I remember was back in 1992, living on Kauai, I used a floppy disc that had also been used in a local community college, and it infected Excel. I had an anti-virus program installed, varius (loud) bells and claxon horns went off, and the AV vendor told me what to do to get rid of it. This must have been on a 486 Pentium or something of that ilk .

But one thing for sure, the wonderful world-is-flat "parts bin de jour" approach to building PCs isn't exactly conducive to high reliability, although at least low prices make up for the annoyances. Basically it's essential to have a full-service extended warranty, which adds about $250-300 to the price, which in a sense is the "real" price if you want to receive value over the expected service life of the product.

I went through the NVIDIA GPUs dying on high-end Toshibas deal, but very much to Toshiba's credit, with a little prompting and persistence, they gave me $800 for one incident, and replaced the motherboard for a second incident, and I'm still using the laptop after almost 5 years. And one of my HP HDX-18s croaked at a rather young age, but it was promptly replaced for free.

In a Consumers Report maybe two years ago, there was a survey of thousands of users, covering all kinds of PCs and Macs, and the reliability across the board was, in my opinion, mediocre, regardless of price or maker. Something like 17-20% of the users reported a substantial "issue" within the first year.

 

[Jay_S]

I am not a computer professional, but I have had great success building my own home computers using Gigabyte motherboards, Corsair power supplies and memory, Intel processors, and various graphics cards, typically Nvidia-based. As I am not a gamer I don't need super-powerful graphics. These builds are rock-solid, and since they only have a few discrete parts, they are easy to troubleshoot and upgrade. I do take the trouble to install good cooling fans but I don't go overboard. There are probably no cost savings over commercial brands but at least I know what is in each box and I know how to replace every part with standard components. I doubt that this approach would be practical for most, but it really isn't that hard.

 

[Bruce B]

When I opened my studio I was the only computer tech. I didn't have the money to spend on the "proper" computer equipment I needed. I spent all the money on the build, infrastructure and other necessary equipment.
When working with hi-rez audio and video, you need super fast computers. In a studio environment, you also need stability. Most of the software manufacturers have tested known builds and recommend guidlines.
I started off by keeping it simple... Intel cpu and mobo with nVidia graphc cards. I used WD Raptor drives and the fastest/most RAM that I could use with XP Professional. This worked... for a while. Then Avid and Merging started making the PCI-e dsp boards necessary to run the software. Higher sample rates started becoming the norm and I had to upgrade to keep up. Was nothing for a feature film or game to have a 100 or so tracks in hi-rez for Blu-ray. It was taking overnight to render films. It was a very steep learning curve. When I could no longer find mobo's that had 3 of the same slots side by side for the necessary dsp boards connector cable, I VERY reluctantly switched over to a MAC... I am now slowly changing my whole studio over to MAC. I'm tired of having to be a beta tester for PC configurations that sometimes just don't work. That's not good when you're having computer issues and a client is over your shoulder wondering what kind of bonehead he just hired!


Regards,

 

[Mobiusman]

I have used Apple products since 1978 and Mac's since the beginning, so clearly I am a Mac guy. There is no need for me to list the many reasons why the Mac operating system is superior, because anyone who has used one knows the multiple answers. Aside from the intuitive design that is user centric, not Microsoft centric, there are three really good reasons to go Mac: 1) Apple has kept a much stricter leash on the user interface guidelines making it easier to just figure out how to use new software because the basics are already familiar; 2) Applecare and the Genius Bar at Apple Stores are incredible for solving, fixing and covering problems/confusion; and 3) Most Important--Macs represent a system of use that is the most integrated in computerland. Just look at how iPods and iTunes work together, or iPhones and Macs work as a system. From what I see, the biggest mistake Apple made was settling for an inferior carrier in ATT because they paid a higher premium than Verizon would.

 

[markc2]

I like my Mac, I use PC's at work all day. It's nice to come home to the Mac. I never really think about the computer, I just use it for my photo's/scanner and don't really think about the background. I set it up once, and it stays set. I only play with options when I wish to mess with them. Not the other way around. I use to be depressed about games for the Macintosh, but I have a playstation 3 for that.

Mark

 

[brianherlihy]

I am a MAC guy through and through. I think the Mac vs. Microsoft vs. Google corporate dominance will be getting interesting again in the very near future with cloud computing. i think Mircosoft is well positioned with their Azure product to let the cheap machines feed off the abundant bandwidth available today to get their services from the cloud - will be interesting (my guess is that Apple's closed door policy will eventually bite them in the ass - i am a big apple fan, this is a business perspective).

 

[audioguy]

I started using Apple II's in the late 70's then had one of the first Macs. Apple didn't have a hard drive so I purchased a 3rd parth 10 MEG hard drive for ..... $1875.00.

My only gripe with my Apple (I have two Macs) is the lack of the equivalent of Outlook for contacts. The Apple supplied software for that is, to me, woefully inadequate. I have to synch my iPhone with Outlook to keep my customers list up to date. Other than that (and the fact that virtually no speaker/room software works on a Mac except REW) I have no reason to use a PC (buth have 4 of them!!)

 

[JackD201]

Why not run Windows along with OS X on your Mac machine then?

 

[LesAuber]

When you get right down to it isn't this a blonde vs brunette question? When the Mac's had proprietary architecture they were probably a bit more reliable since you weren't trying to account for a gazillion different hardware configs. OS wise I suspect most of the supposed Mac security is more just the lower numbers. Why target Mac's when there are all those PC's out there with someone just waiting to click on anything? It's sorta sick funny listening to the woes of guys at work trying to keep their wives/kids computers going. Seems like they'll install anything that says free...

 

[vinylphilemag]

That's a commonly held belief, but it's wrong. Mac OS is based on UNIX, and UNIX was designed, from day one, with mutltiuser and multitasking--and the security implications they have--in mind. In other words, security (like the inability for one process to overwrite another's memory, or for one user to overwrite another's files) deeply ingrained into the OS and the culture surrounding it (I know 'cause I'm part of it!). Windows, OTOH, was originally designed neither for security nor multitasking, and it cartainly wasn't multiuser. It may be a bit different now (or not: I don't know), but Windows has historically never differentiated between users at the OS kernel level, so it's easy for a malicious process to overwrite stuff it sholdn't have access to.

In other words, Windows was historically insecure by (poor) design. I'm in polite company so out of respect for Amir, I'll stop now. But I must add this: I strongly feel that despite the huge resources at their command, I think no company has done more to lower people's expectations of computers than Microsoft. Over in UNIX land, we would never tolerate the instability that Windows users take for granted...

 

[amirm]

Don't worry about me. I made my career working on Unix operating system! This is not an excuse by any means but the scale of what Microsoft has to deal with is unprecedented. No one else has to ship software that runs on infinite permutations of hardware, to the tune of 400 million copies per year! When I managed the media player, we had 8 downloads per second for that piece of software alone! Yes, 8 per second whether we were sleeping or working! Even the most elaborate testing schemes don't scale enough to cover every corner that could have a bug.

No one has figured out how to write perfect software. Take any amount of unreliability and multiply it by huge numbers and you get failures. There is simply no one Microsoft can learn from in how to do what it does. It has innovated in many areas of software assurance such as Watson reporting (what happens when your system crashes and the system reports the bug to Microsoft), to really amazing static checkers used to find issues in the program without running it.

As to multi-tasking, Windows NT matched Unix in every respect, years before Apple could spell Unix. The head of the team at CMU who invented Mach OS version of Unix that Apple uses has for years headed Microsoft Research!

What makes Windows unstable is the sheer amount of hardware and with it, untested drivers that interact in ways that computer science is not ready to deal with. I have 30 years of software development and I don't know what advice to give to Microsoft on how to do things differently. And no, swapping the Unix kernel for NT would do nothing. Unix would "panic" (crash) just the same if you fed it random driver written by a guy who doesn't know what a kernel is.

Again, no excuses but some explanations of the complexities of the task .

 

[LesAuber]

And if Unix were that widespread with all those potential loop holes I rather expect there would be pathetic jokers out there trying to find a way to exploit it. Again speculation on my part but I rather imagine this is why the Palm OS and viruses never became an issue. Not because the OS was so great or the closed hardware environment. Just not worth the effort for bragging rights or whatever it is that motivates such scum. Somehow telling your code monkey friends, gee I infected 5 Palms (Macs) today vs I crashed a 100,000 PCs just doesn't come off the same. Never understood the motivation for such things. But then what do I know. I'm about as far from a software guy as is possible and still be on the same planet.

 

[amirm]

Indeed. In 1980s I managed development of Unix systems where we ported and optimized it for new hardware we had built. During that time, the first set of reports of viruses came for the OS. The level of breaches were mind boggling:

1. The main email background process had a debugging interface. If you logged in into it and typed "wizard" it would give you a root (super user) login and you could do anything to the system! It was put in by the key developer of the OS!

2. You could type a special command at the text editor (vi) and get root privileges.

3. There was a command called "finger" that would let you update your own personal information (office location, etc.). This was added to the end of the line in the password file for your user name. Well, all you had to do was type a newline and that way, create a new root user with a password of your choice on the next line!

4. Someone wrote a program which just passed on random arguments to the OS system calls (the main way you tasked the operating system to do anything). Well, there was little syntax checking, causing the OS to crash left and right as soon as you ran the program. I remember we fixed something like 150 different bugs because of this.

I could go on but you get the picture. #3 and #4 are some of the core techniques utilized today to breach modern operating systems.

That said, Unix did have one advantage in that user programs were always separate from the applications. To get performance for gaming, Windows allowed direct access to the graphics system without going through the OS. This is perhaps the only major failing of Windows architecture but as I mentioned below, I am not sure there is a good way to fix it as gaming performance is so critical for many.