Mac Mini vs EMM Labs XDS1 V2 Player Transport

[number95]

A digital file ripped via computer will sound very different from the original optical disc if the laptop/PC wasn't refreshed (powered down and up again) prior to ripping.

A digital file that's ripped track by track basis will sound better than the same track ripped by whole disc mode.

If disk clean function is performed on the laptop/PC prior to being refreshed, it's another big jump in sound quality in the resultant ripped file.


This points to residual memory in the data retrieval/data recording device being the culprit.


The issue I mentioned does not only affect playback, but it is a big issue during ripping as well, whether via laptop/PC or via standalone ripper/recording/media player components.

Some of your arguments do not make sense to me. If track by track ripping will sound different compared to whole disk ripping, the only explanation is the root data should not be the same compared to original data on the disk ie different 1,0 otherwise you can not expect the sound should be different if ripped data is identical. If you were right, ripping a software to the computer on whole disk mode would cause problems compared to rip track by track as the original data would not be similarly copied. So far after tons of ripped software on desktops, laptops, I have never faced with an issue.

 

[FrantzM]

A digital file ripped via computer will sound very different from the original optical disc if the laptop/PC wasn't refreshed (powered down and up again) prior to ripping.

A digital file that's ripped track by track basis will sound better than the same track ripped by whole disc mode.

If disk clean function is performed on the laptop/PC prior to being refreshed, it's another big jump in sound quality in the resultant ripped file.


This points to residual memory in the data retrieval/data recording device being the culprit.


The issue I mentioned does not only affect playback, but it is a big issue during ripping as well, whether via laptop/PC or via standalone ripper/recording/media player components.

Yes it is.

Not only that. Digital playback without refreshing the data retrieval device can create audio artifacts that can be very grating to the ears.

But motors of turntable also need refreshing too.....

I am no longer going to assume you are serious.

You are not alone.

 

[jeromelang]

Interesting...

Have you ever tried cd demagnetizer/clarifiers like Bedini? I have quad-beam version and when I load the cd to the Bedini clarifer before loading to the cd transport (Demagneting takes approx 1 minute or so) and then play that cd it sounds audibly better with better dynamic extention.

I have not tried that particular brand of demagnetizing device.

But I usually place newly bought discs on a shakti stone over a 48 hours period before listening to them. It has an effect of cleaning up the background haze.

 

[Diapason]

Poe's Law in action before our very eyes. I'm still not sure...

 

[jeromelang]

Some of your arguments do not make sense to me. If track by track ripping will sound different compared to whole disk ripping, the only explanation is the root data should not be the same compared to original data on the disk ie different 1,0 otherwise you can not expect the sound should be different if ripped data is identical. If you were right, ripping a software to the computer on whole disk mode would cause problems compared to rip track by track as the original data would not be similarly copied. So far after tons of ripped software on desktops, laptops, I have never faced with an issue.

This is a memory retention issue on the ripping hardware.
That's the reason why refreshing the PC/laptop prior to playing a track or ripping a track can sound so much better.


It is very easy for you to verify this.

Tried it on an optical player first, whereby refreshing can be done in a matter of seconds.
On your xds player, play a sacd disc in the similar method I've mentioned.
That means powering down the player then powering up again. Make sure the disc is not left inside while doing this.
After the player has fully powered up and settled, (that means hearing that "click" to indicate the analog stage has settled) Then load in the disc.
Let the player read TOC and fully settle.
To commence playing the disc, press SKIP FORWARD and PLAY in quick succession
It's best to use a finger from each hand.
After playing for 1 or 2 minutes. Stop the disc.

Now play the disc again (without the refreshing).
Use the exact same track cueing method as above to ensure all things except the refreshing part remains constant.

You should be able to hear differences in soundstaging and airiness.

I am suggesting you try the above with a sacd disc instead of a RBCD disc because of my experience with the dac2x loosing sync when using a RBCD. Maybe you won't have this problem on your xds1 v2. Maybe the problem is also there, but the 1box player doesn't have the same indication as on the dac2x. I had the original xds1 before. I sold it before I could verify whether it had this issue as well.

Provided you followed the procedures as mentioned above, then the only differences is whether the player was refreshed prior to playing the disc.
The differences you hear will be the result of memory retention in the servo control of optical disc players/transports.

Once you know what to listen for, you can move on the laptops/pcs
Try playing a digital file with the hardware fully refreshed first.
Then listen again when you play that same file without refreshing the hardware.

Again, if you know what to listen for, you can then move on to check ripping quality with and without refreshing.

By then, you'll probably know what to listen for when you compare ripping by disc and ripping by track basis.

The only way you are going to understand what I am saying here is for you to try.

 

[slowGEEZR]

Since my DAC doesn't use the power from the USB output of my Mac Mini, does it really matter that the Mini power supply is not top notch, or that the environment inside the Mini is noisy? My DAC strips away the power from the USB cable and uses its own power. My understanding is that just the data is then transferred to the DAC.

 

[dmnc02]

Since my DAC doesn't use the power from the USB output of my Mac Mini, does it really matter that the Mini power supply is not top notch, or that the environment inside the Mini is noisy? My DAC strips away the power from the USB cable and uses its own power. My understanding is that just the data is then transferred to the DAC.

I am not sure I understand you correctly, but my EMM DAC2X is not USB-powered either and yet the Mini power supply did make a very significant difference.

 

[dmnc02]

Poe's Law in action before our very eyes. I'm still not sure...

Very apt reference, but the claim that pressing SKIP FORWARD and PLAY in quick succession affects memory retention is a giveaway.

 

[edorr]

Since my DAC doesn't use the power from the USB output of my Mac Mini, does it really matter that the Mini power supply is not top notch, or that the environment inside the Mini is noisy? My DAC strips away the power from the USB cable and uses its own power. My understanding is that just the data is then transferred to the DAC.

True, but this does not make the source immune from PS quality. Of so, all USB sources would be PS agnostic, which is not the case.

 

[number95]

This is a memory retention issue on the ripping hardware.
That's the reason why refreshing the PC/laptop prior to playing a track or ripping a track can sound so much better.


It is very easy for you to verify this.

Tried it on an optical player first, whereby refreshing can be done in a matter of seconds.
On your xds player, play a sacd disc in the similar method I've mentioned.
That means powering down the player then powering up again. Make sure the disc is not left inside while doing this.
After the player has fully powered up and settled, (that means hearing that "click" to indicate the analog stage has settled) Then load in the disc.
Let the player read TOC and fully settle.
To commence playing the disc, press SKIP FORWARD and PLAY in quick succession
It's best to use a finger from each hand.
After playing for 1 or 2 minutes. Stop the disc.

Now play the disc again (without the refreshing).
Use the exact same track cueing method as above to ensure all things except the refreshing part remains constant.

You should be able to hear differences in soundstaging and airiness.

I am suggesting you try the above with a sacd disc instead of a RBCD disc because of my experience with the dac2x loosing sync when using a RBCD. Maybe you won't have this problem on your xds1 v2. Maybe the problem is also there, but the 1box player doesn't have the same indication as on the dac2x. I had the original xds1 before. I sold it before I could verify whether it had this issue as well.

Provided you followed the procedures as mentioned above, then the only differences is whether the player was refreshed prior to playing the disc.
The differences you hear will be the result of memory retention in the servo control of optical disc players/transports.

Once you know what to listen for, you can move on the laptops/pcs
Try playing a digital file with the hardware fully refreshed first.
Then listen again when you play that same file without refreshing the hardware.

Again, if you know what to listen for, you can then move on to check ripping quality with and without refreshing.

By then, you'll probably know what to listen for when you compare ripping by disc and ripping by track basis.

The only way you are going to understand what I am saying here is for you to try.

Although I should say this is a bit strange way, I will try what u suggest and report here.

Audio is full of some interesting things and sometimes they may look weird but it may be the case they may work. One memory comes to my mind that couple of years ago, while testing a cd player with two friends, one of them suggested that instead of pressing play and skip fwd and fwd to say track 4, directly pressing to 4 on the remote seemed to him the song was performed sonically better by the player. That looked like hilarious first but he wanted us to try. We tried it couple of times and he was damn right. Even I was so skeptical afterwards thinking we were psychologically biased so that we made a blind test such that each of us took the remote while the rest two without knowing which play method selected listened to same track two times via two methods. Again all of us selected the direct press button for the selected track. Know it looks weird, but that was the case.

 

[slowGEEZR]

True, but this does not make the source immune from PS quality. Of so, all USB sources would be PS agnostic, which is not the case.

Thanks. I thought that the noise, etc. was carried into a DAC via the USB V-Bus from the Mini. I thought that since my DAC stripped away that power and supplied its own that no noise from the Mac would be present on the digital signal being processed in the DAC. I know that all USB DACS don't strip away the voltage supplied by the Mac and therefore, could add noise, etc. to the processing.

 

[slowGEEZR]

I am not sure I understand you correctly, but my EMM DAC2X is not USB-powered either and yet the Mini power supply did make a very significant difference.

Thanks. Not all USB DACs strip away the voltages coming from the Mac. Until the latest revision to my DAC, it did not supply its own power supply voltage to replace the power supply voltage sent by the Mac.

 

[number95]

Let me share my experiences with Mac Mini as a music server. I have a mac mini as music server connected to a Denon a/v receiver in a low profile a/v setup in main living room (connecting to Denon's spdif digital input via Halide Design Bridge Spdif cable). I really liked what I hear compared to budget dvd/cd player. I decided to buy another mac mini to integrate to my main audio setup in my listening room. I also ordered a custom made power cord for mac mini from Transparent Cable (High Performance Power Link) with Furutech special connector to suit to mac mini's tiny power cord sockets. Last but not the least was a usb audio cable from Transparent (Premium USB audio cable). I connected mac mini to my EMM Labs XDS1 V2's usb audio input. Last night I made an A-B test, same cds from player's transport vs mac mini dac (lossless format). Since internal dac is same for both digital sources, I presume it is transport of XDS1 vs mac mini+usb cable for the differences. I should say mac mini as source is close to the transport but not equal. Contrary, one can easily verify the differences between them in a critical listening session. So contrary to many claiming, I still prefer transport to use as reference digital source. Should it be different if instead of mac mini, if I used a much more expensive music server like Aurender etc, I do not know. Again, if I used a more expensive usb cable (current usb cable that I have is also an expensive cable IMHO), it might have been better for mac. Anyways, I could not justify to myself to get rid of transport and get a dac+music server for the time being. Even if I upgrade from XDS1 one day, I will go always with a transport included solution. My humble thoughts for sure.

I wanted make an amendment to my original post and views. I recently upgraded my speakers and also started to use Shunyata df-ss cable elevators for speaker cables and power cords including the main interconnectors between preamp and power amps (front end is decoupled from power amps and speakers hence long interconnectors needed), these changed lot of things in a very good way. The system now has a much better realism, tons of dynamic room and resolution which have not experienced before these changes. Those changed the way I compared mac mini based vs emm labs only cd playback. It is obvious that mac mini preferred listening has darker background, more space between instruments, better tonal variations, musically more involving while cd playback is harsher, upper mids and highs are too aggressive and there is certainly more listening fatigue. Bass texture is definitely one class above when mac mini is played. The differences are more audible when hi res format is played.

It seems I was too early to decide in my original post and now felt to write to the forum again to correct myself.

 

[jeromelang]

What I always do on my TSDX/DAC2X - remove the disc, shut down the transport, shut down the dac (physically with the rocker switch at the back). Power up the transport, let it read "no disc" and settle. Open tray and load the cd. Close the tray. Let it read disc TOC and settle. Then power up the dac. Let it sync on to the incoming data stream, and turning on its analogue output and settle. Then I'll press the skip forward and play buttons in quick succession. Makes all the difference in the world.

Try this with an sacd disc first.
Reason being - The TSDX has a problem with cd discs.
It will lose sync before catching onto it again nine times out of ten tries.
Sound quality is not optimized as a result.

But sacd discs sound wonderful using the above track cueing methods.

If you fully comprehend the reason(s) it has to be done like this, then you will instinctively understand why playing digital files is an exercise in futility.

 

[number95]

What I always do on my TSDX/DAC2X - remove the disc, shut down the transport, shut down the dac (physically with the rocker switch at the back). Power up the transport, let it read "no disc" and settle. Open tray and load the cd. Close the tray. Let it read disc TOC and settle. Then power up the dac. Let it sync on to the incoming data stream, and turning on its analogue output and settle. Then I'll press the skip forward and play buttons in quick succession. Makes all the difference in the world.

Try this with an sacd disc first.
Reason being - The TSDX has a problem with cd discs.
It will lose sync before catching onto it again nine times out of ten tries.
Sound quality is not optimized as a result.

But sacd discs sound wonderful using the above track cueing methods.

If you fully comprehend the reason(s) it has to be done like this, then you will instinctively understand why playing digital files is an exercise in futility.

Thanks for the info. My observations cover the very first listenings with XDS1, though I did not do it with sacd, will try that.

My reference source is vinyl and my analog setup is by far superior to both methods of digital playback.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim